Official AVS TiVo HD Topic! - Page 16 - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #451 of 4820 Old 12-20-2007, 02:24 PM
Member
 
hambone's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 21
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I did a little work on power management for pc's in the 90's so I have an idea of whats possible with computing technology. I suspect there is much that Tivo can do to reduce its power consumption when in standby mode. As far as background stuff goes, I absolutely do not believe that there is so much updating etc that it cannot spend most of its standby mode time in a lower power state. Its a matter of getting the hardware and the software right.
hambone is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #452 of 4820 Old 12-20-2007, 10:21 PM
Member
 
hambone's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 21
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
The issue for me is that Tivo is using energy unnecessarily when it is not in use ... like a lot of electronic devices. When you add up these phantom loads throughout your house, they do become significant. Swapping out CFL's for incandescents is a great thing to do if you are concerned about your energy consumption but that is just a start. There are lots of other things you can do...big and small...and one of those things is getting rid of useless energy consumption.
hambone is offline  
post #453 of 4820 Old 12-21-2007, 03:33 AM
 
bicker1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Burlington, MA
Posts: 8,289
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Like Aaron mentioned, TiVos represent too small of the whole to focus on, before the more common and more substantial problems are addressed.
bicker1 is offline  
post #454 of 4820 Old 12-22-2007, 03:33 PM
Member
 
pk_aeryn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 31
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
My main concern with Tivos being on all the time would be that it might reduce their lifespan (Not counting the hard drive, which I know as kucharsk said is better for them, unless that counts for all computer parts)?? I'm looking into getting a Tivo HD, possibly... does anyone know how long these machines are expected to last? All hard drives die eventually, but is Tivo easy to be serviced and parts replaced?
pk_aeryn is offline  
post #455 of 4820 Old 12-22-2007, 03:54 PM
 
bicker1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Burlington, MA
Posts: 8,289
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
I can't talk about the TiVo HD, but my TiVo Series 1 is still working to some extent, even though it is over six years old. My TiVo Series 2 is over four years old and it is still working perfectly, as well as the first day I had it.
bicker1 is offline  
post #456 of 4820 Old 12-22-2007, 04:42 PM
Member
 
hambone's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 21
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I would not worry too much about drive life even under a power management scheme. Commodity hard drives typically have a MTBF of 600,000 hours...thats a long time. It is estimated that each spin cycle is equivalent to adding 8 hours of operation. Let say the Tivo drive goes through 10 spin cycles a day through some power management scheme. The Tivo drive would "age" at the rate of 104 hours per day...about 38,000 hours per year. So very roughly, you could estimate that the average Tivo drive would last for nearly 16 years under those conditions.
hambone is offline  
post #457 of 4820 Old 12-23-2007, 08:32 AM
Super Moderator
 
DrDon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Metro Detroit
Posts: 12,673
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 75 Post(s)
Liked: 270
A number of off-topic posts have been moved to the AVS Lightbulb Forum.

Doc

Walking the fine line between jaw-dropping and a plain ol' yawn.
DrDon is offline  
post #458 of 4820 Old 12-23-2007, 12:45 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
gwsat's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Tulsa
Posts: 14,633
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 198 Post(s)
Liked: 491
Quote:
Originally Posted by hambone View Post

I would not worry too much about drive life even under a power management scheme. Commodity hard drives typically have a MTBF of 600,000 hours...thats a long time. It is estimated that each spin cycle is equivalent to adding 8 hours of operation. Let say the Tivo drive goes through 10 spin cycles a day through some power management scheme. The Tivo drive would "age" at the rate of 104 hours per day...about 38,000 hours per year. So very roughly, you could estimate that the average Tivo drive would last for nearly 16 years under those conditions.

I agree. In an earlier post to this thread, which has since been moved, I observed that I thought TiVo had it right in opting for an always on state. I also have a Scientific Atlanta 8300HD DVR, which has an on-of switch, but still does stuff in the background when it is turned off. Go figure. I have opted to leave my desktop PC running 24/7, because it makes sense for me.

Unfortunately, despite its relevance, my earlier post was moved by a moderator because in it I had also addressed (shamefully, I guess) the, ahem, Issue (apparently) Which Cannot be Named (here). What the hell, though, I'm a big boy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bicker1 View Post

I can't talk about the TiVo HD, but my TiVo Series 1 is still working to some extent, even though it is over six years old. My TiVo Series 2 is over four years old and it is still working perfectly, as well as the first day I had it.

I had good luck with my Series1, too. I bought it in 2000 and although TiVo replaced the first one in warranty early on, the replacement worked like a charm for the next four years, when I finally retired it in favor of the execrable SA 8300HD because the 8300 could record in HD. As noted above, I think that TiVo's always on choice is the right one.
gwsat is online now  
post #459 of 4820 Old 12-23-2007, 01:28 PM
Member
 
hambone's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 21
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Gwsat - I would at least like an option from Tivo that would allow the user to put the box in a very low power state < 10 watts (preferably < 5) when in standby. Under my scheme, the box would wake up whenever a program is set to be recorded or housekeeping chores need to be done. It could be done intelligently so that the system does not power down and then wake up a few minutes later. I suspect that for most users, Tivo would cycle at most a few times a day. Users that wanted to use it could and those that don't wouldn't have to.

Right now, I have my Tivo on a power strip and turn it off when I know I won't be recording anything. Because I sometimes record things after I go to bed, my Tivo runs several hours when it doesn't need to. This is unnecessary...Computers are good at automating functions like this.
hambone is offline  
post #460 of 4820 Old 12-23-2007, 01:33 PM
AVS Club Gold
 
aaronwt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Northern VA(Woodbridge)
Posts: 21,464
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 652 Post(s)
Liked: 715
The TiVo really doesn't use much power. It's not worth shutting it off. If you are concerned about the TiVo then I assume you don't have any incandescent lights around anymore. Those waste much more power than the TiVo does.

39TB unRAID1--53TB unRAID2--36TB unRAID3

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

XBL/PSN: WormholeXtreme

aaronwt is online now  
post #461 of 4820 Old 12-23-2007, 01:42 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
bfdtv's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 13,484
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
IIRC, my Kill-A-Watt only reported 28W for my TivoHD with a 1TB WD10EACS drive.

HDTV Recorder Comparison Chart | DTVPal DVR FAQ | New! TiVo Premiere (Series4) FAQ |
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
bfdtv is offline  
post #462 of 4820 Old 12-23-2007, 02:20 PM
Senior Member
 
hcour's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Columbia, SC
Posts: 459
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I plan to buy the TivoHD box just as soon as they come out w/the SDV dongle next yr and I'll be putting in a 1 TB drive. My question is, should I do all the setup first, including getting the cable cards installed, before I switch out the drive? Or should I go ahead and replace the hd first thing, as soon as I unpack it, and then go thru the setup and installation process?

Thanks,
Harold
hcour is offline  
post #463 of 4820 Old 12-23-2007, 03:00 PM
Member
 
hambone's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 21
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
BFTV, yeh a while back I think you posted that and I expected to see ~28W as well. But I am seeing 36-27 with my kill-a watt. I am using the usb wireless receiver which may be contributing to the additional load...but maybe your 1TB drive consumes less power than the stock tivo drive.

To the larger question, if Tivo were the only device sucking a little power when idle, no big deal. But just about everything with a plug consumes a little power when "off". These small loads add up to very large loads requiring additional power generation facilities that would otherwise be unnecessary.

And yes, I have done a lot to decrease my power consumption in all areas including the suggestion above...have also done the pv and solar thermal thing as well.
hambone is offline  
post #464 of 4820 Old 12-23-2007, 06:04 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
gwsat's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Tulsa
Posts: 14,633
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 198 Post(s)
Liked: 491
Quote:
Originally Posted by hambone View Post

Gwsat - I would at least like an option from Tivo that would allow the user to put the box in a very low power state < 10 watts (preferably < 5) when in standby. Under my scheme, the box would wake up whenever a program is set to be recorded or housekeeping chores need to be done. It could be done intelligently so that the system does not power down and then wake up a few minutes later. I suspect that for most users, Tivo would cycle at most a few times a day. Users that wanted to use it could and those that don't wouldn't have to.

Right now, I have my Tivo on a power strip and turn it off when I know I won't be recording anything. Because I sometimes record things after I go to bed, my Tivo runs several hours when it doesn't need to. This is unnecessary...Computers are good at automating functions like this.

I certainly appreciate your position but I am sanguine about the TiVo S3s and HDs being set to be always on, as is demonstrated by the fact that I voluntarily leave my desktop PC on 24/7.

Certainly, though, there are tradeoffs involved in running any computer 24/7. Energy consumption is undeniably greater and there is a legitimate argument that doing so leads to a shorter lifespan than does turning it off when you don't need it.

Right or wrong, though, I have come to accept the counterargument that always on does not shorten a computer's lifespan. I also like having them instantly available, and the cost of the additional power having them on all the time is something I don't worry about much.
gwsat is online now  
post #465 of 4820 Old 12-24-2007, 10:41 AM
Member
 
roykirk1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 64
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Sorry for newbie ish question, but I need an answer soon and quick scan did not reveal the answer. Considering going back to Tivo, but with HD model instead of my old Series 2. Does the HD model have dual tuner capability with just the cable wire input? Or do I have to get 2 cable cards from Time Warner?

Hate, hate, hate interface and bugs of TWC's SA 8300HDC, but I have to admit I really like HD recording plus ability to record 2 channels at once. Seems like Tivo HD can do something similar, but maybe only if one is SD and other is HD?

Debating whether it is worth $300 up front plus a higher monthly fee ($17 vs $9). Comments?
roykirk1 is offline  
post #466 of 4820 Old 12-24-2007, 11:16 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Hyrax's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Eastern Massachusetts
Posts: 2,567
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10 Post(s)
Liked: 17
To be able to get 'premiem' HD content, you'll need to get two cable cards. I signed up for 3 years and my monthly fees for TivoHD were $8.33 a month, and there is an ongoing holiday package deal for a TivoHD + lifetime subscription for the next week or so.

I've a few friends who got rid of their 8300HDC and are happy they did. I'd do it in a flash if I were you. However, you should be aware that the Tivo software will be showing up on Comcast boxes fairly soon:
http://offonatangent.blogspot.com/20...available.html

However, I don't know if TWC is going to be doing a deal with Tivo or not.
Hyrax is offline  
post #467 of 4820 Old 12-24-2007, 11:51 AM
Senior Member
 
hcour's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Columbia, SC
Posts: 459
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
roy, you know about the SDV issues, right? That's the only the keeping me from going w/Tivo right now. In my area TWC uses SDV for a lot of the HD channels including HBOHD and ESPN2.

Harold
hcour is offline  
post #468 of 4820 Old 12-24-2007, 03:15 PM
Advanced Member
 
Dawgdaes's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Huntington Woods MI
Posts: 653
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by roykirk1 View Post

Sorry for newbie ish question, but I need an answer soon and quick scan did not reveal the answer. Considering going back to Tivo, but with HD model instead of my old Series 2. Does the HD model have dual tuner capability with just the cable wire input? Or do I have to get 2 cable cards from Time Warner?

Hate, hate, hate interface and bugs of TWC's SA 8300HDC, but I have to admit I really like HD recording plus ability to record 2 channels at once. Seems like Tivo HD can do something similar, but maybe only if one is SD and other is HD?

Debating whether it is worth $300 up front plus a higher monthly fee ($17 vs $9). Comments?


Did you have product lifetime on your old S2?

If yes they may offer you a transfer. They let me transfer from a S1 to a Tivo HD a couple of weeks ago for $199. I was able to get the Tivo HD from CC on sale on-line with in store pick up 239.99 (it was on a four hour sale).
Dawgdaes is online now  
post #469 of 4820 Old 12-24-2007, 03:16 PM
Advanced Member
 
Dawgdaes's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Huntington Woods MI
Posts: 653
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by hcour View Post

roy, you know about the SDV issues, right? That's the only the keeping me from going w/Tivo right now. In my area TWC uses SDV for a lot of the HD channels including HBOHD and ESPN2.

Harold


I new to Hd Tivo? Can you explain the SDV issues. I have no clue what you are talking about?

What is a dongle?
Dawgdaes is online now  
post #470 of 4820 Old 12-24-2007, 06:11 PM
Member
 
roykirk1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 64
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Hi all

No, I do not know about SDV issues. What is SDV?

Did anyone else's 8300HDC decide to download cablecard firmware at 8pm today? And not finish until 8:40pm? Geez. I work in technology, and we would never do a software release during primetime. Grrr
roykirk1 is offline  
post #471 of 4820 Old 12-24-2007, 06:50 PM
Advanced Member
 
Dawgdaes's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Huntington Woods MI
Posts: 653
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by roykirk1 View Post

Hi all

No, I do not know about SDV issues. What is SDV?

Did anyone else's 8300HDC decide to download cablecard firmware at 8pm today? And not finish until 8:40pm? Geez. I work in technology, and we would never do a software release during primetime. Grrr

Do you use the 8300HDC in conjunction with a tivo? or do you have both and they are independent of each other?
Dawgdaes is online now  
post #472 of 4820 Old 12-24-2007, 11:02 PM
Senior Member
 
hcour's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Columbia, SC
Posts: 459
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
SDV is Switched Digital Video. I don't know all the techno blah-blah, basically it's a way for the cable companies to increase bandwidth. The important thing for Tivo'ers is that Tivo can't receive SDV channels at this time. You have to check w/your local provider, or go into your cable box diagnostics to find which channels are SDV. Where I live TWC only has a few HD channels as it is, and quite a few of those are SDV, so I'm going to wait.

The dongle is a device that Tivo is supposed to have in the first half of '08 that plugs into the USB port and will allow reception of SDV channels, solving the issue.

H
hcour is offline  
post #473 of 4820 Old 12-25-2007, 06:09 AM
 
bicker1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Burlington, MA
Posts: 8,289
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by hcour View Post

The dongle is a device that Tivo is supposed to have in the first half of '08 that plugs into the USB port and will allow reception of SDV channels, solving the issue.

Just a clarification: The dongle comes from the cable company, not from TiVo.
bicker1 is offline  
post #474 of 4820 Old 12-26-2007, 10:51 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
gwsat's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Tulsa
Posts: 14,633
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 198 Post(s)
Liked: 491
Quote:
Originally Posted by bicker1 View Post

Just a clarification: The dongle comes from the cable company, not from TiVo.

That's right. Unfortunately, TiVo and the cable operators have estimated that the dongle will not become available until sometime in the second quarter of 2008. Based on earlier estimates involving similar products, that is nonexistent, I have observed I fear that it's likely to take longer than that, maybe a lot longer, before we get an SDV compatible dongle in our hands.

I'm sorry to sound so pessimistic here, but sad experience has taught me that this is usually how it works. Until then neither the S3 nor the HD will be capable of receiving SDV transmissions. Period, paragraph, end of report.
gwsat is online now  
post #475 of 4820 Old 12-26-2007, 11:00 AM
 
bicker1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Burlington, MA
Posts: 8,289
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
I hear you, though I think that we're not talking about a "never" situation, here. I think we'll see this dongle follow the same trail as the Comcast TiVo... another endeavor that paired the two companies together to provide something. It took the two companies working together about an extra year and a half than originally planned. (Just guessing that from memory. If you know the exact number, please let us know.) So figure this dongle will be provided "some time in 2009", at the latest.
bicker1 is offline  
post #476 of 4820 Old 12-26-2007, 11:14 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Paul Simoneau's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Southern NH
Posts: 1,127
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by gwsat View Post

That's right. Unfortunately, TiVo and the cable operators have estimated that the dongle will not become available until sometime in the second quarter of 2008. Based on earlier estimates involving similar products, that is nonexistent, I have observed I fear that it's likely to take longer than that, maybe a lot longer, before we get an SDV compatible dongle in our hands.

I'm sorry to sound so pessimistic here, but sad experience has taught me that this is usually how it works. Until then neither the S3 nor the HD will be capable of receiving SDV transmissions. Period, paragraph, end of report.

We may get more information about the dongle (I never get tired of giggling at that word, BTW) when CES rolls around in January. Now that TiVo's shipped both the Series3 and TiVoHD (which they've shown at the last few CES shows), they'll need something else to amaze and inspire consumers. If they do end up showing something dongle related, we may be closer than we think. Otherwise, we may be in for a long wait.
Paul Simoneau is offline  
post #477 of 4820 Old 12-26-2007, 11:38 AM
 
bicker1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Burlington, MA
Posts: 8,289
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
I cannot imagine anyone at TiVo thinking that a dongle will get any significant number of folks excited. I am expecting CES to be a showcase for new broadband features, maybe some Unbox advancements, etc.
bicker1 is offline  
post #478 of 4820 Old 12-26-2007, 12:09 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Paul Simoneau's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Southern NH
Posts: 1,127
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by bicker1 View Post

I cannot imagine anyone at TiVo thinking that a dongle will get any significant number of folks excited. I am expecting CES to be a showcase for new broadband features, maybe some Unbox advancements, etc.

Only the incessant voice of negativity could find a solution to the complete obsolescence of the S3 and TiVoHD via SDV an unimportant detail. Yup, I'm sure that with Comcast and TWC rolling out SDV as quickly as possible, that no one would be interested in seeing a solution to that problem. Yeah, you're completely right.

We know that the basis for the hardware already exists (the Motorola DTC700 digital set top tuner). Most of which remains is the USB<->dongle software control issues. This is not a complex situation, fraught with legalities and half-hearted intentions as CableCARD was. This is a straight forward thing to accomplish.

Also, if you'd read posts, rather than simply scrawl more negative drivel, you'd see that my post didn't say that the dongle would be the thing that TiVo would place central focus on at CES. Rather, if we saw the dongle, it would be closer to reality than many of us thought it was.
Paul Simoneau is offline  
post #479 of 4820 Old 12-26-2007, 12:25 PM
 
bicker1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Burlington, MA
Posts: 8,289
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Simoneau View Post

Only the incessant voice of negativity could find a solution to the complete obsolescence of the S3 and TiVoHD via SDV an unimportant detail.

I didn't say it was "an unimportant detail". I said it wasn't "exciting". You don't use a showcase like CES to proclaim, "We're not going to be obsolete!" You use it to get people excited about what you are going to offer.
bicker1 is offline  
post #480 of 4820 Old 12-26-2007, 04:03 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Paul Simoneau's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Southern NH
Posts: 1,127
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by bicker1 View Post

I didn't say it was "an unimportant detail". I said it wasn't "exciting". You don't use a showcase like CES to proclaim, "We're not going to be obsolete!" You use it to get people excited about what you are going to offer.

They can (and probably will) use it as a high-profile platform to proclaim to consumers that their future is still bright. There is a LOT of uncertainty and doubt amongst current and future TiVo subscribers, about whether their box will become a boat anchor when their cableco rolls out SDV in their area. Without an effective SDV solution, their future prospects lie in the miniscule OTA market and whatever cableco bandwagon they can hitch their cart to. Not a very warm thought for either TiVo executives or TiVo customers alike. Announcing and showing a solution will go a long way to removing those doubts and keep the subscriptions flowing.

No, it's not exciting, but it's essential. Call it what you want. I believe they'll show it, and they NEED to.
Paul Simoneau is offline  
Reply HDTV Recorders

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off