Official AVS TiVo HD Topic! - Page 22 - AVS Forum
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post #631 of 4820 Old 05-03-2008, 10:27 PM
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I set up an HD system for my father, who's 90, and needed a simple well-designed remote (unlike the one you get from Comcast), so I set up a TivoHD for him.

BUT.... my brother-in-law, who lives only 100 miles from my father (in contrast to my 2500 miles) told me that MASN, the SD channel that broadcasts a lot of local baseball games, disappeared from the favorites list, which - for simplicity - I had pared the favorites down to the 40 or so channels that include all those a baseball game has any likelihood of appearing on, plus a few others that I have seen my father watching when I've visited, and some others that I, plus my sister and brother-in-law, are likely to watch when they visit.

When the one sports channel that carries more Baltimore and Washington baseball games than any other disappears from the favorites list, this leaves my father with a screwup that he can't do anything about and that he's probably stuck with for a week or two.

Any idea how a channel can disappear from the favorites???

As far as I know, removing it ON PURPOSE is a multistep process, going to the channel list PLUS a couple of steps THERE....no WAY my father did that!

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post #632 of 4820 Old 05-15-2008, 08:12 AM
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Does this HD box take advantage of the 16 X 9 real estate and make good use of the extra space with high def menus and listings ect ?

thanks
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post #633 of 4820 Old 05-15-2008, 08:23 AM
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the only thing high def about that menus is the Tivo guy in the upper left corner. the rest is basically stretched in 720p. it's kinda crap.
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post #634 of 4820 Old 05-15-2008, 08:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by briansemerick View Post

the only thing high def about that menus is the Tivo guy in the upper left corner. the rest is basically stretched in 720p. it's kinda crap.

hmmm...on my father's unit, I have things set up so the menus, and in particular the grid guide is NOT stretched, and all the channels have the picture in proper proportion...it took me a while to pick the right combo of picture type on the tv and tivo to get this...

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post #635 of 4820 Old 05-15-2008, 08:37 AM
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only the menus. not that grid or the channels. the menus are not really HD, it just seems so.
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post #636 of 4820 Old 05-15-2008, 08:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by briansemerick View Post

the only thing high def about that menus is the Tivo guy in the upper left corner. the rest is basically stretched in 720p. it's kinda crap.

If it's stretched, it's 480i. Images that are 720p are HD and fill a 16:9 screen. Until fairly recently all HDTVs had a native resolution of 720p, many still do.
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post #637 of 4820 Old 05-15-2008, 08:42 AM
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it's 720p, but it's just not very high quality i guess. it does not look HD to me at all. the text is not sharp enough for 720p. i'm asking on the Tivo forums because i swear that's what someone said there before.

i know it's 720p because my Kuro says so on the input.

here's an example pic from the net:



the text is soft and dark. it should be sharp and bright - but they use the same set of characters for both SD and HD i think.
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post #638 of 4820 Old 05-15-2008, 09:46 AM
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Wow, you guys are picky. The menus are easy to read and look much sharper on my 100 inch screen than I've seen on SD devices like my old D* box. I certainly would not describe it as crap.

One thing to remember is that this stuff has to be easily readable on a 26" screen from 10 feet, so they cannot cram too much information on the screen at once.
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post #639 of 4820 Old 05-15-2008, 10:05 AM
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Again, another reason why they should add user customization to the fonts, sizes and colors of the UI.

It would be pretty cheap and would help people out a whole lot more than most of the garbage they keep adding (like lame internet radio stations and ads)
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post #640 of 4820 Old 05-15-2008, 12:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hyrax View Post

Wow, you guys are picky. The menus are easy to read and look much sharper on my 100 inch screen than I've seen on SD devices like my old D* box. I certainly would not describe it as crap.

One thing to remember is that this stuff has to be easily readable on a 26" screen from 10 feet, so they cannot cram too much information on the screen at once.

Couldn't there be a choice for the 26" people for basic menus and HD menus for the upper classes ?

Bernie
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post #641 of 4820 Old 05-15-2008, 03:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gwsat View Post

Until fairly recently all HDTVs had a native resolution of 720p, many still do.

I really don't think this is true...many were 1080i.

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post #642 of 4820 Old 05-15-2008, 05:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by avnstf View Post

I really don't think this is true...many were 1080i.

Nope, until recently the NATIVE RESOLUTION of most HDTV sets was either 720p or 768p. See this CNET article:

http://www.cnet.com/4520-7874_1-5137915-1.html

Look at the table in the section entitled, "HDTV display resolution."
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post #643 of 4820 Old 05-15-2008, 09:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gwsat View Post

Nope, until recently the NATIVE RESOLUTION of most HDTV sets was either 720p or 768p. See this CNET article:

http://www.cnet.com/4520-7874_1-5137915-1.html

Look at the table in the section entitled, "HDTV display resolution."

I've seen a lot of articles that appear not to be genuinely knowledgeable about what the specs of or differences between different devices or past and present devices may or may not be.

But leaving aside the article, my Sony hdtv crt display, purchased 5 years ago, doesn't have pixels and was sold as a 1080i device, and indeed one can tell the difference between 720p and 1080i broadcast material on it. And the 1080i material is far better that what I have seen on my father's new 720p LCD TV with input from a TivoHD (both of which I gave him so he'd be watching something better than SD while he's still alive).

Furthermore, your original post said "Until fairly recently all HDTVs had a native resolution of 720p" (notice the word "all"), which certainly isn't true of my TV, and I don't know whether it's even true of LCDs...

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post #644 of 4820 Old 05-16-2008, 03:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gwsat View Post

Nope, until recently the NATIVE RESOLUTION of most HDTV sets was either 720p or 768p. See this CNET article:

http://www.cnet.com/4520-7874_1-5137915-1.html

Look at the table in the section entitled, "HDTV display resolution."


This only holds true for fixed pixel displays (DLP, LCD, LCoS -- front/rear projecting and flat panel). CRT displays do not have a native resolution. Of course, CRTs are rapidly disappearing from the marketplace as manufacturers move production towards fixed pixel systems.
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post #645 of 4820 Old 05-16-2008, 04:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Simoneau View Post

This only holds true for fixed pixel displays (DLP, LCD, LCoS -- front/rear projecting and flat panel). CRT displays do not have a native resolution. Of course, CRTs are rapidly disappearing from the marketplace as manufacturers move production towards fixed pixel systems.

Yeah, the CRT display is analog technology in a digital world. I can't remember the last time I saw one for sale.
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post #646 of 4820 Old 05-16-2008, 06:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by avnstf View Post

I've seen a lot of articles that appear not to be genuinely knowledgeable about what the specs of or differences between different devices or past and present devices may or may not be.

But leaving aside the article, my Sony hdtv crt display, purchased 5 years ago, doesn't have pixels and was sold as a 1080i device, and indeed one can tell the difference between 720p and 1080i broadcast material on it. And the 1080i material is far better that what I have seen on my father's new 720p LCD TV with input from a TivoHD (both of which I gave him so he'd be watching something better than SD while he's still alive).

Furthermore, your original post said "Until fairly recently all HDTVs had a native resolution of 720p" (notice the word "all"), which certainly isn't true of my TV, and I don't know whether it's even true of LCDs...

CRT displays are so unusual these days that i completely forget that they even existed. That said, many CRT users swear that their PQ is better than that of any digital display, at least pre-1080p displays. Not that I would know, God knows.

Does your Sony have a 16:9 screen, or is it 4:3?
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post #647 of 4820 Old 05-16-2008, 06:40 AM
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yeah, they've virtually been pushed off the shelves, and the best ones aren't being made any more, but clearly they belie the claim that all HDTVs WERE 720p, my initial point.

Retailers loved the higher markups on flat screens and, partly because of the paucity of crts available by comparison, many viewers came to think of flat screens as the only HDTVS, really ironic in view of the superior picture quality of the good crts.

In any case, it's pretty clear (at least to me) that you need a 1080 unit (now p instead of i) to match their quality, and this becomes obvious if you get an lcd that's bigger than the biggest crt (34" widescreen).

Mine is a 32" 4x3, giving me a 29' widescreen picture, which has been good for the small room where we watch tv and where - by the way - the 3-speaker Sony provides a theatre sound experience without all the complication of an auxiliary surround system. I'll soon be tempted, I think, by a high-end 1080p 40" LCD, the max size that makes sense for our room, and needed partly because, with our 3 digital recording units (2 of which are 1-tuner OTA) plus DVD player, I want 5 HD inputs (HDMI or component) to the TV instead of our present 3...I'll probably do this late 2009, after the digital transition and improved/cheaper Blu-ray units...but coming close to the CRT quality is my goal, even though I'm afraid matching the sound quality will be tough without an auxiliary system, which is a mess to manage when you have multiple sources...ugh

By the way, I am almost certain that LCDs were offered in both 720p and 1080i, say, 3 years ago - what's new is the supposed "full HD" description of 1080p...another retailer ploy, and funny in view of the fact that full hd had been offered for years before.

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post #648 of 4820 Old 05-16-2008, 07:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gwsat View Post

CRT displays are so unusual these days that i completely forget that they even existed. That said, many CRT users swear that their PQ is better than that of any digital display, at least pre-1080p displays. Not that I would know, God knows.

Does your Sony have a 16:9 screen, or is it 4:3?

i had the Sony 27HS420 (27" CRT w/720p & 1080i + HDMI) until about a week ago. it was made in 2004 i think? so at least 4 years ago they were still making CRT's in HD and they were higher than 720p. it was a great picture, but it was only 27" 4X3. i don't care how good the PQ is if i'm looking at letterboxed HD at about 24". it's too small, and that's why CRT's will always lose.
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post #649 of 4820 Old 05-16-2008, 08:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by briansemerick View Post

i had the Sony 27HS420 (27" CRT w/720p & 1080i + HDMI) until about a week ago. it was made in 2004 i think? so at least 4 years ago they were still making CRT's in HD and they were higher than 720p. it was a great picture, but it was only 27" 4X3. i don't care how good the PQ is if i'm looking at letterboxed HD at about 24". it's too small, and that's why CRT's will always lose.

Don't make the assumption that all CRT-based displays are your typical, smallish "tube" type display. CRT's are (were?) also found in front and rear projection systems, often providing superior picture (especially contrast) quality than LCD/DLP systems. The drawback for CRT's is that they're a little twitchy and need some constant TLC (convergence, etc) to maintain that picture quality. The fixed pixel systems proved to be cheaper to produce, and easier to maintain and eventually won out over CRT.
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post #650 of 4820 Old 05-16-2008, 08:51 AM
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they're definitely not all small - but the largest i can think of is around 40", which is still on the low end size. you're not going to find a 60" tube tv and if you did it would be impossible to move/fit in a decent space. also, they're heavy as ****.
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post #651 of 4820 Old 05-16-2008, 09:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Paul Simoneau View Post

Don't make the assumption that all CRT-based displays are your typical, smallish "tube" type display. CRT's are (were?) also found in front and rear projection systems, often providing superior picture (especially contrast) quality than LCD/DLP systems. The drawback for CRT's is that they're a little twitchy and need some constant TLC (convergence, etc) to maintain that picture quality. The fixed pixel systems proved to be cheaper to produce, and easier to maintain and eventually won out over CRT.

I had my 6 year old 65" Mits crt tuned last year and the picture is outstanding. In addition, it does 480i/p and 1080i, so no, not all older HDs do 720p native.
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post #652 of 4820 Old 05-16-2008, 09:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by briansemerick View Post

they're definitely not all small - but the largest i can think of is around 40", which is still on the low end size. you're not going to find a 60" tube tv and if you did it would be impossible to move/fit in a decent space. also, they're heavy as ****.

Wow, I must have been hallucinating for those 4-5 years I had a 55" widescreen CRT-based rear projecting HDTV, which could accept and display 480p, 540p, 600p and 1080i resolutions with ease. Good thing you cleared that up for me...

One can not claim to know the true meaning of "heavy as hell" until you help a friend try to lift all 250+ pounds of 36" Sony Wega XBR flatscreen direct view up 4-5 flights of steep stairs on a hot Saturday afternoon. Ugh..... Bad times....

I believe Mitsubishi made a 40" direct view CRT TV. I got to watch some sports on one while at a sports bar one night a few years back. The curvature on the surface of the screen was ludicrous to say the least.
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post #653 of 4820 Old 05-16-2008, 09:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wblynch View Post

Again, another reason why they should add user customization to the fonts, sizes and colors of the UI.

It would be pretty cheap and would help people out a whole lot more than most of the garbage they keep adding (like lame internet radio stations and ads)

Actually, I'm not sure how cheap or easy it would be to do what you've described. But I agree it would be nice to see more information in the guide. I like the way Beyond TV lets you set the number of rows down the screen and the number of hours displayed across the screen, for example.

I was commenting that describing the interface as being "crap" was being a bit picky. It strikes me as being easy to use, easy to read, and basically pretty good - while acknowledging it could be improved.
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post #654 of 4820 Old 05-16-2008, 09:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Simoneau View Post

Wow, I must have been hallucinating for those 4-5 years I had a 55" widescreen CRT-based rear projecting HDTV, which could accept and display 480p, 540p, 600p and 1080i resolutions with ease. Good thing you cleared that up for me...

One can not claim to know the true meaning of "heavy as hell" until you help a friend try to lift all 250+ pounds of 36" Sony Wega XBR flatscreen direct view up 4-5 flights of steep stairs on a hot Saturday afternoon. Ugh..... Bad times....

I believe Mitsubishi made a 40" direct view CRT TV. I got to watch some sports on one while at a sports bar one night a few years back. The curvature on the surface of the screen was ludicrous to say the least.

no offense, but i said you're not going to find one, as in now. find me a 60" CRT (not DLP, not CRT-based, i'm talking full-on WEGA type TV - not a floor standing RPTV) in the store today. it's not happening. i never said anything about "not accepting certain resolutions". ????? and you're telling me that 55" tv you had wasn't heavy? i carried my 130lb. Sony CRT up and down 3 flights of stairs in a brownstone in the summer. that's not fun. it's just not a feasible tech anymore, and there is no way to wall mount them. they take up too much room and are too heavy, that's just the truth.
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post #655 of 4820 Old 05-16-2008, 10:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by briansemerick View Post

no offense, but i said you're not going to find one, as in now. find me a 60" CRT (not DLP, not CRT-based, i'm talking full-on WEGA type TV - not a floor standing RPTV) in the store today. it's not happening. i never said anything about "not accepting certain resolutions". ????? and you're telling me that 55" tv you had wasn't heavy? i carried my 130lb. Sony CRT up and down 3 flights of stairs in a brownstone in the summer. that's not fun. it's just not a feasible tech anymore, and there is no way to wall mount them. they take up too much room and are too heavy, that's just the truth.


There NEVER was any CRT direct view display that was that big. The weight of the glass alone was prohibitive. Along with that, you'd have terrible image quality at the fringes, and the vacuum pressure within the tube itself would be astronomical. And so : 40" was the largest, but typically the upper end was 36".

What you were failing to comprehend (multiple times) was that I was trying to correct this multiply erred post :

Quote:
Originally Posted by briansemerick View Post

so at least 4 years ago they were still making CRT's in HD and they were higher than 720p. it was a great picture, but it was only 27" 4X3. i don't care how good the PQ is if i'm looking at letterboxed HD at about 24". it's too small, and that's why CRT's will always lose.

Fact : Not all CRT HDTVs are too small. The big ones are/were front or rear projected.

Fact : CRT HDTVs are being produced, as in today. Direct view, front and rear projected.

Fact : Not all CRTs are direct view tube-style displays.
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post #656 of 4820 Old 05-16-2008, 11:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hyrax View Post

Actually, I'm not sure how cheap or easy it would be to do what you've described. But I agree it would be nice to see more information in the guide. I like the way Beyond TV lets you set the number of rows down the screen and the number of hours displayed across the screen, for example.

I was commenting that describing the interface as being "crap" was being a bit picky. It strikes me as being easy to use, easy to read, and basically pretty good - while acknowledging it could be improved.

Exactly.

I read somewhere on TCF a while ago a post by TiVoPony addressing the complaints of folks who'd like the menus to be in a higher resolution than 480p. Essentially, he summed it up by saying that would require a re-write of the GUI elements of the TiVo software, with the underlying message that it wasn't very likely to happen.

Remember, TiVo has always been about simplicity. It should be simple enough to use that your grandma could use it. Adding all of these tweaks, bells 'n whistles departs from that goal, and gets away from what makes the TiVo UI special in the first place.
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post #657 of 4820 Old 05-16-2008, 11:07 AM
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i don't think accurate font resolution is a "bell and whistle" IMO.
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post #658 of 4820 Old 05-16-2008, 11:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by briansemerick View Post

i don't think accurate font resolution is a "bell and whistle" IMO.

It's simply a matter of engineering prioritization on Tivo's part. There's only so many engineers to go around...

Would you rather have them fix showstopping bugs (loss of video or HDMI link, anyone?), work with the CableLabs tuning resolver folks to make sure your S3/TiVoHD isn't made a boat anchor by SDV, add HDTV UnBox downloads, or completely re-write the GUI to avoid a 480p->720p transcode of the menus ?

Along with a Free Space indicator, I'd have to believe that a complete GUI re-write to simply avoid a transcode of MENUS, would have to fall very low on their list of things to go.
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post #659 of 4820 Old 05-16-2008, 12:24 PM
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hire more people.

considering that the GUI is the main thing the average consumer sees, and that we're paying a LOT more for an HD unit, i'd expect them to put a little time into making the unit fullly HD in every way. especially those early adopters that paid $800 for an HD machine that doesn't even really have HD menus.

i'm no coder, it doesn't seem you are either - so i'm not sure the actual time it would take to switch out fonts. it's most likely not a straight up find and replace operation, but this is big company - i'm sure they have smart people who could do this within a reasonable amount of time. they do roll out firmware updates every few months.

that's all.
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post #660 of 4820 Old 05-16-2008, 12:47 PM
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Thats actually something I would like to see myself. Exploit that HD real estate. Give us more channels on the guide, or more hours. And make it selectable, keep the 480 "size" but create a higher resolution one for those who can see well from further away.

I have been keeping an eye on the GUIs of some of the competition and we are starting to see some nice little touches being implemented with a HD resolution GUI.
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