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post #2791 of 4820 Old 08-12-2009, 07:31 PM
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Originally Posted by phdeane View Post

I agree with you, and apparently so do the informed consumers, hence the link I provided above. I mean if you watch just one HD movie download a week (I watch more like 4-5 a week), then that's $20 - $25 right there. Why Amazon, Apple, Sony, and others think that will get them any meaningful revenue is beyond my understanding.

Apple should know that cost is a major issue, hence the success of iTunes for music. In the old days, we had to fork out around $12 - $15 for a CD. We wanted perhaps two or three songs off that album. And then along comes napster and greatly hurts the CD industry. The main reason Apple was successful was that the $12 - $15 was reduced down to the $2 - $3 for the few songs we wanted off the CD. Had they priced it higher, it would not have worked, regardless of quality (read: MusicGiants).

Now movies are different. You really can't buy a smaller portion of a movie, but you can download (for one-time use, of course) or stream it. If they charged $1 to download a movie and allowed me to hold on to the download until I want to watch it, then I see a possible success there. It's basically riding on the successful, low-pricing strategy of redbox and DVDPlay, but coupling that with the convenience of on demand. Heck, based on that alone, they could probably charge $1.50 - $2 for HD and $.99 for SD, and many would go for it.

The key, however, is residual revenue. Any pay-per-download model that works in the music world, may not be so successful in the movie world - for the reasons stated above. That is why streaming based on a monthly fee is the future, at least in my humble opinion. And for those unwilling to fork over the $15 - $20 a month to enjoy such a service, the very cheap download model will work for them.

That's an excellent analysis. If Apple were to offer a monthly subscription plan for iTunes movie downloads to the Apple TV that included HD films and was similar in pricing to the Netflix plan, I would subscribe on the first day. Although iTunes HD movies are only 720p they still are honest to God HD and provide great PQ. Maybe Apple, Amazon, and the other purveyors of movie downloads will wise up one of these days and see that their current ala carte pricing plan simply doesn't work.
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post #2792 of 4820 Old 08-12-2009, 07:38 PM
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Originally Posted by gwsat View Post

That's an excellent analysis. If Apple were to offer a monthly subscription plan for iTunes movie downloads to the Apple TV that included HD films and was similar in pricing to the Netflix plan, I would subscribe on the first day. Although iTunes HD movies are only 720p they still are honest to God HD and provide great PQ. Maybe Apple, Amazon, and the other purveyors of movie downloads will wise up one of these days and see that their current ala carte pricing plan simply doesn't work.

I appreciate your enthusiasm, but 720p is HD-lite.

- kelson h

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post #2793 of 4820 Old 08-12-2009, 11:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Kelson View Post

I appreciate your enthusiasm, but 720p is HD-lite.

It really depends on the general quality and size of your television, as well as your seating distance. Most streaming and/or download services currently offering 720p are pretty much HD-lite, particularly with the compression they are using, but most people cannot tell a difference in the real world between 1080i/p and 720p.

I watch BDs on both my Mitsubishi 1080i (rear screen CRT) and my 720p Panny PJ. I think the PQ looks better on the Panny PJ and I'm sitting about 12' from the 120" diagonal screen. In fact, I've held back from replacing my Panny PJ with a 1080p model mainly because the incremental increase in PQ from SD to 720p is so much greater than the incremental increase in PQ from 720p to 1080p. And as I'm sure you know, resolution is only part of the picture - so to speak.
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post #2794 of 4820 Old 08-12-2009, 11:51 PM
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Originally Posted by spocko View Post

First time I've heard that. Can you please elaborate?

That was a while back, post #'s in the 2500's somewhere. If you want proof, try it for yourself, it's a simple experiment. Set both of your TiVo's tuners to Low Power Analog broadcasts you dont receive while you measure the speed transferring content from the TiVo to your PC with TiVoDesktop, kmttg or the other program. Then try it while your TiVo is asleep in Standby mode. Compare for yourself. Standby mode does reduce transfer throughput. At least it does on my TiVo HD w/v11c and v11d.

And the power requirements for the TiVo awake v.s. the TiVo in Standby mode are spelled out in the FAQ in the first post of the thread. FAQ #54. "How much electricity does the TivoHD consume?"
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post #2795 of 4820 Old 08-13-2009, 05:50 AM
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Originally Posted by bwall23 View Post

And the power requirements for the TiVo awake v.s. the TiVo in Standby mode are spelled out in the FAQ in the first post of the thread. FAQ #54. "How much electricity does the TivoHD consume?"

As I recall, putting the TiVo in standby mode does not spin down the HDD -- the only moving part. If true there is no point to standby mode if you are looking to save power or wear-n-tear on the HDD. As has been pointed out, I believe standby mode has more to do with the operation of the parental controls than as a means to save power/equipment.

I can't recall for sure. Will the TiVo come out of standby mode to execute a scheduled recording? I seem to remember it doesn't. What about calling home for scheduled updates.

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post #2796 of 4820 Old 08-13-2009, 07:12 AM
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So how long does it typically take Tivo to update the listings when new channels get added? I live in the San Francisco Bay Area and Comcast just added 54 new HD channels this week. My Tivo HD XL sees all of the new channels but the box can't do much with them until the programming guide is available.
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post #2797 of 4820 Old 08-13-2009, 07:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phdeane View Post

It really depends on the general quality and size of your television, as well as your seating distance. Most streaming and/or download services currently offering 720p are pretty much HD-lite, particularly with the compression they are using, but most people cannot tell a difference in the real world between 1080i/p and 720p.

I watch BDs on both my Mitsubishi 1080i (rear screen CRT) and my 720p Panny PJ. I think the PQ looks better on the Panny PJ and I'm sitting about 12' from the 120" diagonal screen. In fact, I've held back from replacing my Panny PJ with a 1080p model mainly because the incremental increase in PQ from SD to 720p is so much greater than the incremental increase in PQ from 720p to 1080p. And as I'm sure you know, resolution is only part of the picture - so to speak.

This is true. Although some purists continue to claim that 720p is not "real HD" or is "HD lite," it is, nevertheless genuine HD. HD is an industry standard and 720p matches the standard. As the Wikipedia article about high definition TV observes, "High Definition usually refers to 720 or more lines of video format resolution displayed in a horizontal fashion from top to bottom." Until recently most HD sets had a native resolution of only 720p, anyway. You were absolutely right when you said, "most people cannot tell a difference in the real world between 1080i/p and 720p."
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post #2798 of 4820 Old 08-13-2009, 08:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gwsat View Post

This is true. Although some purists continue to claim that 720p is not "real HD" or is "HD lite," it is, nevertheless genuine HD. HD is an industry standard and 720p matches the standard. As the Wikipedia article about high definition TV observes, "High Definition usually refers to 720 or more lines of video format resolution displayed in a horizontal fashion from top to bottom." Until recently most HD sets had a native resolution of only 720p, anyway. You were absolutely right when you said, "most people cannot tell a difference in the real world between 1080i/p and 720p."

I'm not being a purist, I'm just logically ranking them based on the reality of their resolutions. There are 3 basic resolutions in DTV: 720x480, 1280x720 and 1920x1080. We call 720x480 = SD. If you want to call 1920x1080 = HD then 1280x720 = something else in between. It may have the official standards name of HD, but I consider it to be HD-lite. If someone were to call it SD-plus I wouldn't argue -- how about ED.

I've always considered 720 to be the stop-gap resolution between 480 SD and 1080 HD because, as you pointed out, the technology has only advanced in the last couple years to make full 1920x1080 panels the mainstream for larger displays.

- kelson h

The bitterness of poor quality lasts long after the sweetness of the low price is forgotten . . . life is too short to drink bad wine

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post #2799 of 4820 Old 08-13-2009, 08:36 AM
 
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I agree with gwsat. HD includes both 720p and 1080i.
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post #2800 of 4820 Old 08-13-2009, 08:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bicker1 View Post

I agree with gwsat. HD includes both 720p and 1080i.

There is no arguing that in terms of what the standards body has defined.
It's all about what you feel in your heart.

- kelson h

The bitterness of poor quality lasts long after the sweetness of the low price is forgotten . . . life is too short to drink bad wine

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post #2801 of 4820 Old 08-13-2009, 08:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Kelson View Post

If someone were to call it SD-plus I wouldn't argue -- how about ED.

That wouldn't work. ED (Enhanced Definition) is actually another name for 480p.
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post #2802 of 4820 Old 08-13-2009, 09:06 AM
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Just got Tivo HD, connected to a Sony 36HS510 4:3 HD ready tv.

Tivo is set for the TV to be 4:3 smart screen, and output in Native format.

The menus look good in 4:3 full screen, the HD looks great in wide screen, native 4:3 broadcast show in full screen. No problems.

When a station broadcasts in widescreen, i get bars along the top and bottom. But when they broadcast a show in 4:3, it also gives bars along the side, so the picture is the small postage stamp.

Is there a way to get that picture to be full screen? The Zoom doesn't seem to work.

My DTV converter box, and a DVD player have a zoom function to do that. Can't image that Tivo wont do it.
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post #2803 of 4820 Old 08-13-2009, 09:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelson View Post

I've always considered 720 to be the stop-gap resolution between 480 SD and 1080 HD because, as you pointed out, the technology has only advanced in the last couple years to make full 1920x1080 panels the mainstream for larger displays.

I doubt that anybody would argue in favor of BD movies recorded at 720 (even if that's allowed). But there's also the matter of refresh rate. Broadcasters can choose 1920x1080i for things like talk shows, but many prefer 1280x720p for things like sports with fast-moving images. ATSC doesn't allow transmission of 1920x1080p60. It may allow 1920x1080p30 or 1920x1080p24 over-the-air, but I don't think anybody uses those.
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post #2804 of 4820 Old 08-13-2009, 09:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bicker1 View Post

I agree with gwsat. HD includes both 720p and 1080i.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelson View Post

There is no arguing that in terms of what the standards body has defined.
It's all about what you feel in your heart.

That's probably the best thing I have read about PQ. Nothing I know about is more subjective in the home theater hobby.

Quote:
Originally Posted by L David Matheny View Post

I doubt that anybody would argue in favor of BD movies recorded at 720 (even if that's allowed). But there's also the matter of refresh rate. Broadcasters can choose 1920x1080i for things like talk shows, but many prefer 1280x720p for things like sports with fast-moving images. ATSC doesn't allow transmission of 1920x1080p60. It may allow 1920x1080p30 or 1920x1080p24 over-the-air, but I don't think anybody uses those.

We agree that using 720p on BDs would be a bad idea. I bought a PS3 and a 1080p Pioneer Kuro 6020 plasma HDTV a little over a year ago and was blown away. 1080p BD's are the state of the art these days. Period, paragraph, end of report. The downside to 1080p BDs is that I often want to throw rocks at the compression degraded and artifact filled so called HD images often transmitted by the likes of A&E and TNT these days.
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post #2805 of 4820 Old 08-13-2009, 09:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pm123 View Post

Just got Tivo HD, connected to a Sony 36HS510 4:3 HD ready tv.

Tivo is set for the TV to be 4:3 smart screen, and output in Native format.

The menus look good in 4:3 full screen, the HD looks great in wide screen, native 4:3 broadcast show in full screen. No problems.

When a station broadcasts in widescreen, i get bars along the top and bottom. But when they broadcast a show in 4:3, it also gives bars along the side, so the picture is the small postage stamp.

Is there a way to get that picture to be full screen? The Zoom doesn't seem to work.

My DTV converter box, and a DVD player have a zoom function to do that. Can't image that Tivo wont do it.

There is nothing that annoys me more than when a station broadcasts a 16:9 program in a 4:3 letterboxed frame. That, of course, gives you the postage stamp in the middle of a 16:9 display. My PBS station is very fond of doing that for many classic movies.

Oh I take that back, there is something more annoying. It's when I had my display set wrong and it stretched the postage stamp image horizontally to widescreen. That drove me nuts.

- kelson h

The bitterness of poor quality lasts long after the sweetness of the low price is forgotten . . . life is too short to drink bad wine

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post #2806 of 4820 Old 08-13-2009, 09:56 AM
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Yes, I've noticed that with the Carson Daly Show on NBC late late late weeknights, for example. Not that I watch that show often, but it's really frustrating when the broadcast image in front of you is 16:9 yet they've got a black frame all around it and therefore underutilizing the available screen real estate.

Is it cheaper to display in this manner, a station equipment limitation, or, is it sheer laziness?

Mourning the disappearance of the -ly suffix. Words being cut-off before they've had a chance to fully form, left incomplete, with their shoelaces untied and their zippers undone. If I quote your post (or post in your thread) without comment, please check your zipper.
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post #2807 of 4820 Old 08-13-2009, 10:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelson View Post

There is nothing that annoys me more than when a station broadcasts a 16:9 program in a 4:3 letterboxed frame. That, of course, gives you the postage stamp in the middle of a 16:9 display. My PBS station is very fond of doing that for many classic movies.

Oh I take that back, there is something more annoying. It's when I had my display set wrong and it stretched the postage stamp image horizontally to widescreen. That drove me nuts.

true, but if you had a 4:3 screen you'd like it. It's just the interim years now between fully adopting HD. Once all channels are available in HD everywhere, it won't be a problem.

The reason you'll get them on a lot of commercials is they aren't providing the stations with both SD and HD versions (or they just didn't take the time to create an HD version). That happens less and less though.

To the OP - it'll look a lot worse zoomed in than it will in a postage stamp.
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post #2808 of 4820 Old 08-13-2009, 11:36 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelson View Post

There is no arguing that in terms of what the standards body has defined.
It's all about what you feel in your heart.

Ah, so you're making a religious argument. Understood!
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post #2809 of 4820 Old 08-13-2009, 11:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelson View Post

There is no arguing that in terms of what the standards body has defined.
It's all about what you feel in your heart.

I think the 720p format can look absolutely stunning on a 100" screen.

I would agree that not all 720p content is created equal. I think one could describe much of the 720p content available via broadband as "HD Lite," because it is compressed to the point where much of the detail is lost. For example, Apple sacrifices significant quality by compressing all of its HD into 4Mbps or less with 5.1 audio. Netflix's quality is comparable at 3.8Mbps without 5.1 audio.
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post #2810 of 4820 Old 08-13-2009, 12:22 PM
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Originally Posted by b_scott View Post

To the OP - it'll look a lot worse zoomed in than it will in a postage stamp.

a 4:3 image that is postage stamped, then zoomed to fill the screen of the 4:3 tv shows no distortion. The zoom may be a bit lower in quality, but it is better than postage stamp.
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post #2811 of 4820 Old 08-13-2009, 03:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelson View Post

Will the TiVo come out of standby mode to execute a scheduled recording?....What about calling home for scheduled updates.

Yes and yes.
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post #2812 of 4820 Old 08-13-2009, 03:51 PM
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Aside from re-enabling parental controls, the primary reason to use standby is to avoid emergency alert system (EAS) messages on cable. All cable systems are required to run EAS tests, and all cable company and CableLabs' certified boxes are required to temporarily switch to another channel during EAS tests and warnings (if video output is enabled).

Normally, these EAS messages would interrupt any cable program you are watching or recording, and there would be a black screen with an EAS message in the middle of your cable recording. In standby mode (where video output is disabled), the TiVo is able to ignore these tests, so it continues to record without any interruption.

I don't bother with standby and have only seen one such EAS message on a recording in 20+ months. But for those on cable systems that more regularly run these EAS tests before 11pm, standby is more useful.
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post #2813 of 4820 Old 08-13-2009, 05:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bfdtv View Post

I think the 720p format can look absolutely stunning on a 100" screen.

That said, not all 720p content is created equal. I would describe much of the 720p content available via broadband as "HD Lite," because it is compressed to the point where much of the detail is lost. For example, Apple sacrifices significant quality by compressing all of its HD into 4Mbps or less with 5.1 audio. Netflix's quality is comparable at 3.8Mbps without 5.1 audio.

Shortly after I got my Apple TV in February 2008, I rented a few iTunes HD movies in the interest of science. I thought that the PQ of those movies was at least as good as that of most of the HD programming I get via Cox OKC. Note, however, that at the time my HDTV was a DLP, which had a native resolution of only 720p. Also, this is not to say that ANY 720p movie is ever going to look quite as good as the 1080p BD variety, displayed on a modern 1080p display.
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post #2814 of 4820 Old 08-14-2009, 08:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelson View Post

As I recall, putting the TiVo in standby mode does not spin down the HDD -- the only moving part. If true there is no point to standby mode if you are looking to save power or wear-n-tear on the HDD. As has been pointed out, I believe standby mode has more to do with the operation of the parental controls than as a means to save power/equipment.

That is true, Standby mode does not spin down the HDD or anything like that. It just shuts off the front panel display and video output, and it does the EAS and parental control things that bfdtv mentioned above. Depending on who you ask, it may or may not save a small amount of electricity.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelson View Post

Will the TiVo come out of standby mode to execute a scheduled recording? ... What about calling home for scheduled updates.

Actually the answers are "No" and "No". It does not need to come out of Standby to perform those functions. It will still perform them as usual while in Standby mode, since Standby doesn't disable those functions.
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post #2815 of 4820 Old 08-14-2009, 08:19 AM
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Originally Posted by tex94 View Post

So how long does it typically take Tivo to update the listings when new channels get added? I live in the San Francisco Bay Area and Comcast just added 54 new HD channels this week. My Tivo HD XL sees all of the new channels but the box can't do much with them until the programming guide is available.

Anyone?
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post #2816 of 4820 Old 08-14-2009, 09:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tex94 View Post

So how long does it typically take Tivo to update the listings when new channels get added? I live in the San Francisco Bay Area and Comcast just added 54 new HD channels this week. My Tivo HD XL sees all of the new channels but the box can't do much with them until the programming guide is available.

I think it typically can take as much as a week or two, but somebody might need to report it here: http://www.tivo.com/setupandsupport/...neup_tool.html

OTOH, I reported an OTA discrepancy back in March which still hasn't been fixed, so I just now reported it again. In fairness, it involves a retransmitter for a main station in another city, so it is probably a confusing situation for them.
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post #2817 of 4820 Old 08-14-2009, 12:11 PM
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I was reading some TiVo stuff and came across reference to "TiVo Basic Service " and "TiVo Plus Service". Can someone tell me the difference, please.

- kelson h

The bitterness of poor quality lasts long after the sweetness of the low price is forgotten . . . life is too short to drink bad wine

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post #2818 of 4820 Old 08-14-2009, 12:14 PM
 
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In 2002 or thereabouts, TiVo was offered on some "elite" platforms, including a couple of Pioneer DVD burners. This wasn't full (lifetime) service, as we know it now, but was rather a more limited service offering: a few days of program guide info, instead of two weeks, for instance. You could upgrade (and I did) to the full (lifetime) service, but if you didn't, your elite device would have the more limited TiVo service, for its lifetime.
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post #2819 of 4820 Old 08-14-2009, 12:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bicker1 View Post

In 2002 or thereabouts, TiVo was offered on some "elite" platforms, including a couple of Pioneer DVD burners. This wasn't full (lifetime) service, as we know it now, but was rather a more limited service offering: a few days of program guide info, instead of two weeks, for instance. You could upgrade (and I did) to the full (lifetime) service, but if you didn't, your elite device would have the more limited TiVo service, for its lifetime.

The Toshiba SD-H400 DVD player was a more reasonably priced product with TiVo Basic. It sold online for around $400 when it launched in 2004, and it was available for $200 from Overstock.com for some time after it was discontinued in 2005.

"TiVo Plus" is the old name for the pay service. TiVo dropped the "Plus" when they stopped offering the "Basic" service.
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post #2820 of 4820 Old 08-14-2009, 12:57 PM
 
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Yeah, but I love my DVD burner. :P)
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