Why aren't there VCR like components for recording HDTV OTA ? - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 104 Old 08-28-2007, 11:39 AM
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Originally Posted by njperry View Post

Am I to understand, that in order to record the digital signal from my HDTV, I have to have a DVR with its own internal ATSC tuner? Then buying a TV with internal HDTV tuner was pointless?!

Not pointless at all. If you're 100% OTA, then having a ATSC tuner on the TV is great. You can split the cable from the antenna. One leg goes to the TV, the other to the DVD recorder.

With this set-up, you can record one show, while you're watching another. Also, in your set-up, if your TV did not have an ATSC tuner, then you would never be watching true HD because none of the current DVD recorders will pass through an HD signal.

Rest assured that your purchase was not pointless.
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post #92 of 104 Old 08-28-2007, 11:50 AM
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Originally Posted by njperry View Post

bought a cheap DVD-Recorder from Walmart but it apparently will not record the HD signal from my TV, despite having an HDMI connection. I would not mind the recording being down-scaled to non-HDTV, I just want to be able to record it and watch it later!

DVD don't have the capacity to record much HDTV, which requires up to 8.6Gb per hour (SL DVDs have just 4.7Gb). Don't hold your breath for a DVD recorder with true HD recording, because you are never going to see that.

Eventually, Blu-ray and HD-DVD recorders will replace DVD recorders, but it will be several years before you can get one of those for under $500. It will probably be five years before you see such a product at Walmart. Until then, the only option -- besides D-VHS tape -- is a DVR with its own built-in tuner(s).

HDTV DVRs like the TivoHD can be expanded with terabytes of storage, as seen here, to store hundreds of hours of HDTV @ 100% original quality, with programs all neatly organized into folders as seen in this screenshot.

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Originally Posted by njperry View Post

Am I to understand, that in order to record the digital signal from my HDTV, I have to have a DVR with its own internal ATSC tuner? Then buying a TV with internal HDTV tuner was pointless?!

It's only pointless for recording purposes.

You cannot record the ATSC HDTV signal from your TV unless your TV has a Firewire. If your TV has Firewire, then you can record from the built-in ATSC tuner to a HDTV D-VHS VCR (or PC using CapDVHS). If your TV doesn't have Firewire, or you don't like the idea of recording from your TV to D-VHS tape or PC, then you'll need some form of DVR or PC DVR with its own internal ATSC tuner.
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post #93 of 104 Old 08-28-2007, 12:13 PM
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You said: "You can split the cable from the antenna. One leg goes to the TV, the other to the DVD recorder. With this set-up, you can record one show, while you're watching another."

I could only do that IF I had a DVD-Recorder with its own internal ATSC tuner, right?
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post #94 of 104 Old 08-28-2007, 12:28 PM
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Originally Posted by njperry View Post

I could only do that IF I had a DVD-Recorder with its own internal ATSC tuner, right?

Yes, although no DVD recorders can record HDTV anyway. DVD recorders with ATSC tuners downconvert the HD signal to SD for recording purposes.

As noted above, DVD isn't a suitable medium for HDTV recording due to its limited capacity. A SL 4.7Gb DVD will hold just a little more than 30 minutes of HDTV at full ATSC bitrates, and standard DVD players cannot playback HDTV content.
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post #95 of 104 Old 08-28-2007, 03:08 PM
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Originally Posted by bfdtv View Post

Yes, although no DVD recorders can record HDTV anyway. DVD recorders with ATSC tuners downconvert the HD signal to SD for recording purposes.

As noted above, DVD isn't a suitable medium for HDTV recording due to its limited capacity. A SL 4.7Gb DVD will hold just a little more than 30 minutes of HDTV at full ATSC bitrates, and standard DVD players cannot playback HDTV content.

Yep - the standard DVD Video spec is definitely standard def only. You can record HD video off-air to a PC and burn these recordings as DVD Roms, but they are not DVD Video compliant recordings and won't play on regular DVD players.

(I record BBC HD off-air on my PC and burn these H264 recordings to DVD+R in UDF format for replay on a PS3 - and get almost exactly 30 mins on a standard DVD5. Neat solution for 30 minute shows - you get an episode of Bleak House onto a single disc. However it gets a bit dull for 3 hour live events... DVD+R DL blanks aren't quite cheap enough to be worth it yet.)
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post #96 of 104 Old 08-28-2007, 03:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by njperry View Post

You said: "You can split the cable from the antenna. One leg goes to the TV, the other to the DVD recorder. With this set-up, you can record one show, while you're watching another."

I could only do that IF I had a DVD-Recorder with its own internal ATSC tuner, right?

Yep - just the same as analogue - you need a TV with an NTSC tuner and a DVD Recorder or VCR with an NTSC tuner to be able to watch and record separate channels at the same time.
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post #97 of 104 Old 08-28-2007, 07:33 PM
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Videobruce you forgot to add that Consumer demand just wasn't there for these HD DVRs when they first came out.

Actually I did. It was #1 & #6.

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Abundant OTA television is what makes this country different from all others. Lets keep it this way. If you like Wi-Fi so much, OTA fits right in. After all, it is wireless.
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post #98 of 104 Old 08-29-2007, 02:06 AM
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Originally Posted by slowbiscuit View Post

Your price is way too high - you should be able to build a dual ATSC/QAM tuner Myth box for $600 or less. I just did that a couple of months ago. Nice Antec NSK2400 case, AMD 4800 X2, good Asus M2NPV-VM mobo, gig of RAM, 500G HD, etc. The tuners were the only parts I got on sale (an ATI HDTV Wonder and a Kworld ATSC-110 for less than $100 total after rebates), so if you are a careful shopper or are willing to accept a cheaper setup it wouldn't be hard to get it down to $500 or less. Check out ebay for the tuners, newegg for the rest.

The advantage that the TivoHD has over an HTPC is not the cost (because the service fees will negate that over time) - it's the ability to record ALL of the digital cable channels that you're paying for. QAM tuners on an HTPC won't let you do that because most cableCo's encrypt everything but locals and a few other channels. You *might* be able to do that on an HTPC by recording firewire off an STB, but that also depends on the cableCo, and then you'd have to dedicate 2 rented STB's as tuners, etc.

Of course the HTPC offers you a world of goodness that you're not going to get with the Tivo, such as using cheap PC's as HDTV frontends to your Myth backend, commercial skip, tons of configurability (maybe too much!), ability to play every A/V file type known to man plus act as a general purpose server for anything else you want in your house, etc. Way too much to list, but you probably already know about the other stuff.

I'm reconsidering building a Myth box instead of buying a TivoHD. Did you buy your tuners new or used? I did some research and pricing over 6 months ago and the pcHDTV HD-5500 tuners were $136 each. Does a Myth frontend have to be a Linux system? I am wondering if I can serve a program from my Myth box to an XP box (which will be my main office productivity/surfing/sw development box).
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post #99 of 104 Old 08-29-2007, 02:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slowbiscuit View Post

Your price is way too high - you should be able to build a dual ATSC/QAM tuner Myth box for $600 or less. I just did that a couple of months ago. Nice Antec NSK2400 case, AMD 4800 X2, good Asus M2NPV-VM mobo, gig of RAM, 500G HD, etc. The tuners were the only parts I got on sale (an ATI HDTV Wonder and a Kworld ATSC-110 for less than $100 total after rebates), so if you are a careful shopper or are willing to accept a cheaper setup it wouldn't be hard to get it down to $500 or less. Check out ebay for the tuners, newegg for the rest.

The advantage that the TivoHD has over an HTPC is not the cost (because the service fees will negate that over time) - it's the ability to record ALL of the digital cable channels that you're paying for. QAM tuners on an HTPC won't let you do that because most cableCo's encrypt everything but locals and a few other channels. You *might* be able to do that on an HTPC by recording firewire off an STB, but that also depends on the cableCo, and then you'd have to dedicate 2 rented STB's as tuners, etc.

Of course the HTPC offers you a world of goodness that you're not going to get with the Tivo, such as using cheap PC's as HDTV frontends to your Myth backend, commercial skip, tons of configurability (maybe too much!), ability to play every A/V file type known to man plus act as a general purpose server for anything else you want in your house, etc. Way too much to list, but you probably already know about the other stuff.

I'm reconsidering building a Myth box instead of buying a TivoHD. Did you buy your tuners new or used? I did all my research/pricing 6 months ago and the pcHDTV HD-5500 tuner cards were $136 each. Does a Myth front end have to be a Linux system? I would like to serve programs (either from a tuner or recorded) from the Myth box to my Windows XP box (my main office productivity/surfing/sw development box in my bedroom office).
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post #100 of 104 Old 08-29-2007, 07:16 AM
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Originally Posted by sneals2000 View Post

Yep - just the same as analogue - you need a TV with an NTSC tuner and a DVD Recorder or VCR with an NTSC tuner to be able to watch and record separate channels at the same time.

Sneals2000, let's say I don't care about watching and recording separate channels at the same time - I just want to record the HD show it is tuned to while I am out. In this case, then, do I still need a DVD-recorder with its own internal ATSC tuner? If not, how can I get the HD signal going into my tv to come out as a down-converted SD signal to my DVD-recorder? Or are there no DVD-recorders that down-convert HDTV like that?
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post #101 of 104 Old 08-29-2007, 09:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by njperry View Post

After reading this whole thread and some side-threads, I just want to clarify that I have no hope. Here is my situation:

---- I have an HDTV pulling in HD OTA for free. I do not get the same channels in regular format (maybe 1 or 2 only) so now, if I want to record a show when not at home, I am out of luck. I bought a cheap DVD-Recorder from Walmart but it apparently will not record the HD signal from my TV, despite having an HDMI connection. I would not mind the recording being down-scaled to non-HDTV, I just want to be able to record it and watch it later!

Am I to understand, that in order to record the digital signal from my HDTV, I have to have a DVR with its own internal ATSC tuner? Then buying a TV with internal HDTV tuner was pointless?!

Note: I do not want to mess with a PC-HDTV, a set top box, Tivo, etc.

Wal Mart sells several DVD recorders that have built in tuners. They do not record in HD and they do not even play live in HD. However they will record for you. I have the Phillips 3705 which costs about $169. It receives and records digital OTA. Phillips sells a DVD recorder with a 160 GB hard drive so you can save the show without recording to the DVD. It is about $100 more. You can go to the DVD recorders forum and find more about these.

Rick R
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post #102 of 104 Old 08-29-2007, 09:28 AM
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My Pio plasma down-converts the HD tuner signals to the S.V. out jack, which I run to a small kitchen TV. I would assume any recorder with a S.V. input would be able to record that non-HD signal.
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post #103 of 104 Old 08-29-2007, 09:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by njperry View Post

Sneals2000, let's say I don't care about watching and recording separate channels at the same time - I just want to record the HD show it is tuned to while I am out. In this case, then, do I still need a DVD-recorder with its own internal ATSC tuner? If not, how can I get the HD signal going into my tv to come out as a down-converted SD signal to my DVD-recorder? Or are there no DVD-recorders that down-convert HDTV like that?

Unless your TV has video/audio outputs, I think you're SOL. Very few TVs (if at all) have AV outputs since there's really no need, although you seem to have found a use. If a TV does happen to have outputs, it's usually Firewire (for D-VHS) or just audio outputs (for sending to an audio receiver).

A new DVD recorder with an ATSC tuner is probably the way to go for you. Or, if you already have an NTSC recorder, you might be able to get an OTA-STB to tune/output to the recorder. But then you're stuck with just about the same set-up, only with more boxes.

ft

EDIT - well, there you go. The guy above has a plasma that has AV outputs.
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post #104 of 104 Old 08-29-2007, 12:03 PM
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Yes, I also have a Pio that allows that. But it's only through composite.

But it also has TVGOS built-in to schedule automatic recordings from, which is kind of cool - even though I've never had any reason to use it myself.

I believe there are other models which have the A/V out capability, but they are probably not that common. I know the Panny 50PX600U I had briefly a few months back had it. It also had the 9th gen TVGOS which was nice. My Elite 1140 only has the 8th gen. guide. The 9th is much improved.

I think you're most likely to find the A/V out feature in models that have TVGOS.

If he's already got a DVD recorder that works fine, he might want to consider using something like the Samsung DTB-H260F ATSC/QAM tuner to could record from. It's a bit cheaper than most of the better name brand recorders out there. (You can also set recordings from the built-in PSIP guide, but it only goes up to about a day in advance. The current, top of the line Samsung DVD recorder (600-something model number?) has this feature too, and the guide goes up to at least a few days.)

A cheap model recorder may suffice as far as the ATSC tuner, but the burner might be more questionable. The best choice would be the Philips HDD model that's out there now - if he was willing to spend that much - although it's really not that expensive for what it gives you - it's under 300 dollars.
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