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post #1 of 15 Old 11-14-2001, 08:47 AM - Thread Starter
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I just saw an advertisement for the new JVC digital VCR , Can this VCR record Over the Air broadcast HD in HD, can it record HD DSS in HD?

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post #2 of 15 Old 11-14-2001, 12:45 PM
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Originally posted by LJG
I just saw an advertisement for the new JVC digital VCR , Can this VCR record Over the Air broadcast HD in HD, can it record HD DSS in HD?

LJG
This deck can only record HD from FireWire sources, which are currently in limited supply: right now, the only thing I know of on the market that these could record from are the OTA ATSC tuners in Mitsubishi's 2002 Integrated sets. I'm extrapolating that from a Mitsubishi rep's having told Ken H, one of our moderators, that you could record from their sets' tuners using their own 1394/DTCP-only deck; if their deck works, this deck should work as well. This is all anectdotal at this point--no one has bought this combo and reported successful recording with it here.

Use the little gray search button near the top of the page (not the one at the top of my post--the one located between buttons labelled "f.a.q." and "home") to search this forum for threads with posts containing the string "DH30000" (without the quotes, of course) for further discussion of this unit, and the earlier, Japanese edition of it, which several forum participants own.

BTW, where'd you see this advertised?

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post #3 of 15 Old 11-15-2001, 05:26 AM
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BTW--sorry about the little lesson in using the forum search feature. I've now noticed that you've been registered here for over a year longer than me :).

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post #4 of 15 Old 11-16-2001, 09:35 AM
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michaelscott
Can you tell me if this D-VHS would work with a Time Warner Cable box? I have the Motorola DCT 2000 with a High Definition Decoder (HDD-200) from General Instrument.

The HD picture is gorgeous, but too many HD programs are being broadcast opposite each other. I'm not interested in archiving or trying to record the HBO/Showtime feeds.

From what I can see, the PVR solutions seem cloudy as to their ability to record HD. I'm NOT interested in anything but timeshifting HD-quality sources.

I've been researching on this forum, but can't seem to cut to the chase, as it were.
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post #5 of 15 Old 11-16-2001, 10:41 AM
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The chase is this:
There are no HD-PVR's on the market, any market, anywhere.

The D-VHS units depend on a IEEE-1394 (aka FireWire, HAVi, iLink) source to record HDTV, in the ATSC format, with Dolby Digital audio.

The HDD-200 does not have this interface, so you are out of luck.

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news.

The other known IEEE-1394 sources for D-VHS are:

A) Dish Network is expected to have a new box and/or a new 1394 module for their model 6000 HDTV receiver in the next 6-12 months. They should support 1394. However, the proposed DirecTV - Dish Network merger could delay this product, right now no one really knows how this will turn out or when we will know. Best guess is that it will take 9 months for the merger to be approved, if it gets approved.

B-1) Buy a new Mitsu HDTV, with the 1394 interface. These should be available in the next 60 days, or less.
This should work for OTA DTV/HDTV, 8VSB cable DTV/HDTV and unencoded QAM cable DTV/HDTV broadcasts, like HBO & Showtime. HDTV PPV will probably be off limits for this system.

B-2) Have or get an older Mitsu HDTV Monitor that will accept the Promise Module. According to Mitus, it will also work like their new HDTV's above. The Promise Module should be available by end Q2 2002.

C) Live in an area where the cableco uses the not-yet-available Sony cable box. It will have the 1394 interface. These will not be widely available, but other versions will probably show up. Again, the question is where & when.

D) Buy one of the discontinued, but still available Panasonic TU-DST50/51 OTA DTV tuners. It has the 1394 interface for OTA DTV/HDTV recording.

And, if you can get one of the very hard to find Dish 5000's w/HD Modulator, that will work with options B & D, for Dish Network HDTV recording.

I may have missed something, but in general, that's about it, for now.

If my Magic 8 Ball is working correctly, I will predict we'll see both HDTV-PVR's and HDTV-DVD recorders available in the next year, or so.

'Better Living Through Modern, Expensive, Electronic Devices'

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post #6 of 15 Old 11-16-2001, 11:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ken H
B-1) Buy a new Mitsu HDTV, with the 1394 interface. These should be available in the next 60 days, or less.
This should work for OTA DTV/HDTV, 8VSB cable DTV/HDTV and unencoded QAM cable DTV/HDTV broadcasts, like HBO & Showtime. HDTV PPV will probably be off limits for this system.
HD PPV not available to watch? If nothing else, the sets do have HD analog component video inputs, and you could put an HD STB from which you can tune PPV (like the Leslie's Motorola DCT2000/HDD-200 combo). I shouldn't think that HBO and Showtime would be "unencoded" on most cable systems--the DVB versions of these are encrypted on the systems that I've lived in and require that your cable box be given authorization to decrypt by the headend. When there are STBs with 1394 and copy protection gets turned on, PPV won't be a problem--it will be moved as "Copy Never" and 1394 compliant removable media recorders like VCRs won't even be able to ask to be sent it (not being capable of performing the required Full Authentication in the role of sink).

BTW, a couple of the 5 Mitsubishi 2002 Integrated models are available now--I've seen the 55" Platinum and 65" Platinum-Plus Integrated models in shops. The 73" Diamond Integrated was supposed to ship by the end of this month (I guess so that some lucky folks can get a 10k+ Christmas present :)). I still haven't seen a shipping date or list price announcement for the 55" and 65" Diamond Integrateds.
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If my Magic 8 Ball is working correctly, I will predict we'll see both HDTV-PVR's and HDTV-DVD recorders available in the next year, or so.
Wow! That's some prediction, especially for HDTV-DVD recorders. I thought that HD DVDs at consumer prices weren't due until mid-2003, much less recorders. That would be cool, though.

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post #7 of 15 Old 11-16-2001, 11:49 AM
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The 169DTC can be used with the HD1000 to record

dave
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post #8 of 15 Old 11-16-2001, 12:20 PM
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My guess is that for electro-political reasons, rather than for purely technical reasons, Hidef DVD recorder/player combos will be available before Hidef DVD content is procurable from the studios. If this is so, then these Hidef DVD recorder/players may not be able to play hidef studio released DVD's if those ever become available. Such a device would be functionally equivalent to the new JVC hidef DVHS VCR.

With a firewire I/F such recorder/players would enable OTA recording from upcoming firewire tuners, including the DTS50/51 tuners which are no longer available. PBS has a lot of OTA hidef content that is worth recording and is probably not copy protected.
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post #9 of 15 Old 11-16-2001, 01:17 PM
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KenH
I'm not at all interested in moving down to a RPTV because I have a 50" Panasonic Plasma display.

I find it hard to believe that nothing will work with my TWC box. The digital cable HD feed is breathtaking and with 9 HD channels available, I'm also not interested in any satellite system.

HD cable has really taken off in the Houston area. Don't know about other areas, but TWC is having a hard time keeping up with the demand for boxes. Surely there ought to be a demand for a high quality way to time-shift! What do the the stations/stores do for their HD loop?
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post #10 of 15 Old 11-16-2001, 04:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by leslie
KenH
I'm not at all interested in moving down to a RPTV because I have a 50" Panasonic Plasma display.

I find it hard to believe that nothing will work with my TWC box. The digital cable HD feed is breathtaking and with 9 HD channels available, I'm also not interested in any satellite system.

HD cable has really taken off in the Houston area. Don't know about other areas, but TWC is having a hard time keeping up with the demand for boxes. Surely there ought to be a demand for a high quality way to time-shift! What do the the stations/stores do for their HD loop?
Leslie
The HD loop in those stores generally comes from expensive Senncore hard-drive devices, not designed for consumer application.

JVC manufactures a couple of very expensive W-VHS decks (two units, the SR-W5U and SR-W7U, listing in the $5-6K range), that will make an analog copy of analog HD component video to expensive W-VHS tape. People in these forums have reported that these make excellent copies of HD video, though they can only record and play back stereo sound. Occasionally these have appeared at bargain prices on E-bay.

HD, and, these days, much of the non-HD cable content is delivered to your cable box in digital form. Devices to record this content in digital form is what the CE industry is concentrating on developing. However, the movie studios are concerned about losing control of distribution of their content: a digital recording of a digital broadcast will be indistinguishable from the original broadcast on playback, as will any copy of that recording or copy of a copy of a copy. At the inception of HDTV, they insisted that, if they were going to allow their content to be broadcast in digital form, some mechanism or mechanisms for protecting that content be incorporated into the equipment for viewing it. Since it was going to take time to for all involved to agree on such mechanisms, the manufacturers chose to start selling HD equipment that they knew would not be capable of viewing copy-protected premium HD content at some future time. All of the HD DBS STBs are designed to reduce the resolution of HD copy-protected material displayed through their HD analog outputs when the content providers decide to start sending it that way. It is not clear that the HD cable equipment has been similarly booby-trapped (though why and how such an arrangement could be reached with the DBS STB makers without the cable STB makers having to agree to the same deal, I don't know), but if not, I'm sure that the powers that be will simply insist that the cable providers deploy something else that is, when they decide to start protecting content.

The bottom line is that nobody (AFAIK) is designing new HD recording devices that will work with non-copy-protected equipment, particularly not for recording from non-copy-protected HD video sources like the HDD-200. However, in the future, if your cable provider were to deploy copy-protected boxes, you could buy JVC's deck with copy-protected connections and HD analog outputs; for at least the non-copy-protected HD content (i.e., everything but HD subscription movie channels and HD PPV), you'd be able to make recordings from the copy-protected connections and play them back in full HD over the analog outputs. You could make recordings of HD subscription movie channels, but the deck would be obliged to reduce the image detail on playback to a maximum of 540x960 pixels, exactly one-quarter the image-detail of 1080x1920 (this is called a "constrained image"). You could not make recordings of HD pay-per-view at all, or at least none of pay-per-view movies.

This copy-protection issue has been hashed to death in these forums in literally thousands of posts over the last year. If you're interested, do a forum search for "HDCP or DTCP or DFAST or DTLA or 5C or copy-protection" (without the quotes), searching the titles only, for a selection of some of these threads. (If you search the posts themselves, you'll get several hundred false hits, since there are those who have taken to using things like "Stop DVI/HDCP now!" in their signatures).

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post #11 of 15 Old 11-16-2001, 04:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by leslie
KenH
I'm not at all interested in moving down to a RPTV because I have a 50" Panasonic Plasma display.

I find it hard to believe that nothing will work with my TWC box. The digital cable HD feed is breathtaking and with 9 HD channels available, I'm also not interested in any satellite system.

HD cable has really taken off in the Houston area. Don't know about other areas, but TWC is having a hard time keeping up with the demand for boxes. Surely there ought to be a demand for a high quality way to time-shift! What do the the stations/stores do for their HD loop?
Leslie
Because of the fear and loathing over an exchangable format like DVHS, the most likely
timeshift format is the PVR that outputs component
(and has no access to the hard drive within).
That product is entirely technologically feasable,
and there were several annoucments of such a
box pending as a product.

However, since a box like that would be most
usefull as a DBS/OTA combination (both since it
needs to tune automatically, and also because
this removes the tuner/PVR interface problem),
I highly suspect that the Dish/Direct merge has
caused the rollout of such boxes to be halted
dead, dead, dead. For the time being.

As for HD-DVD, it pays to remember just how long
(years) the DVD combatants fought amongst themselves before a common format emerged.
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post #12 of 15 Old 11-16-2001, 06:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by samiam
Because of the fear and loathing over an exchangable format like DVHS, the most likely
timeshift format is the PVR that outputs component
(and has no access to the hard drive within).
That product is entirely technologically feasable,
and there were several annoucments of such a
box pending as a product.
The non-removeability of the media in PVRs (by plebes--knowledgeable people upgrade their PVRs all the time, using off-the-shelf EIDE drives), does not quell the fears of the IP holders. Viewing their newest and most valuable content on a display in full HD resolution through analog outputs of PVRs is just as problematic as doing it out of an HD D-VHS deck or any source of HD video. As I stated in an earlier reply, there are W-VHS decks that can be had for a pretty piece of change that can make excellent copies of this as well as some even more expensive high-end professional gear. Don't expect to see HD PVRs without copy-protected connections and image-constraint for HD analog outputs (if they bother to put them on) when playing back copy-protected recordings. There are plenty of things that wouldn't be copy-protected (and hence image-constrained on playback), such as all of OTA television and rebroadcast thereof on cable and DBS; by agreement, basic cable/DBS channels could be copy-protected, but if they contain commercial interruptions, they'd also have to be broadcast with flags that prevent image-constraint on playback. So HD PVRs and VCRs with copy-protected connections and analog HD outputs could still be quite useful to people with non-copy-protected displays.
Quote:
However, since a box like that would be most
usefull as a DBS/OTA combination (both since it
needs to tune automatically, and also because
this removes the tuner/PVR interface problem),
I highly suspect that the Dish/Direct merge has
caused the rollout of such boxes to be halted
dead, dead, dead. For the time being.
Most of the cable STB makers have licensed PVR technology from either Tivo or Sonic Blue (ReplayTV) at this point. There may well be HD cable STB/PVR combos before DBS ones show up. Motorola has announced new units in its DCT5xxx line come of which will have PVR capabilities and some HD decoding abilities, though whether there will be an HD PVR cannot be determined from these press-releases.

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post #13 of 15 Old 11-17-2001, 07:55 AM
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Yesterday a new "Ultimate Electronics Store" opened here in St. Louis. I noticed the JVC recorder and asked the salesman how the Hd was deliviered to the box. He first stated that it came by satellite. I pointed out that it would be difficult to jam a satellite into the box and he claimed component input. When we could not find them he referred me to the JVC rep who was in the building. He had no idea and let me talk to the tech rep on a cell phone. Five minutes of very nice, but ultimately silly hoopla about recording twenty four hours on a tape and all both the rep in the store and I were surprised to hear that they wanted one to buy the machine for its possible future uses. The JVC rep in the store was blown away. The tech rep did mention the theoretical usage with the Mits sets. Art
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post #14 of 15 Old 11-17-2001, 09:38 AM
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Thanks, Michael et al for the information. I appreciate "cutting to the chase." I'd done some searches using the correct keywords, but wasn't sure if the satellite/OTA was fully applicable to the cable situation.

I guess I'll have to wait -- last night I watched Gladiator in HD on HBO and my poor husband had to watch Dark Angel on the old set. Ve vomen haft our vays.
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post #15 of 15 Old 11-17-2001, 01:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Art Lloyd
Yesterday a new "Ultimate Electronics Store" opened here in St. Louis. I noticed the JVC recorder and asked the salesman how the Hd was deliviered to the box. He first stated that it came by satellite. I pointed out that it would be difficult to jam a satellite into the box and he claimed component input. When we could not find them he referred me to the JVC rep who was in the building. He had no idea and let me talk to the tech rep on a cell phone. Five minutes of very nice, but ultimately silly hoopla about recording twenty four hours on a tape and all both the rep in the store and I were surprised to hear that they wanted one to buy the machine for its possible future uses. The JVC rep in the store was blown away. The tech rep did mention the theoretical usage with the Mits sets. Art
Too funny, Art! It was mean of you to toy with those people that way, though--for shame! :)

It's nice to hear that at least one of them knew about the potential use with Mitsubishi's sets. The only reason it's "theoretical" is that there've been so few implementations of these 1394 A/V communications protocol stacks. They are fully intended to interoperate--it's the whole point. Using this, you could connect your entire system together with one short wire running into each device, and one wire running out to the next device, with a single wire running into your receiver (unless it was in the middle of the chain), carrying all digital audio and video to it. I link to a picture illustrating this in this post.

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