What will it take to come out with Tivo for HDTV? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 13 Old 11-21-2001, 11:37 AM - Thread Starter
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Is it a matter of Harddisk size or thoughput that prevents putting Tivo in an HD Satellite Receiver? When would you guess that this will be available - or will digital tape or DVD-R be the future of recording HD stuff? I want my HDTV! PlasMAN
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post #2 of 13 Old 11-21-2001, 01:04 PM
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IMO, the only piece that's missing is agreement on copy-protection. People often think that this is a non-issue for PVRs, since the media is non-removable, but that's not true--if the video is moved in the clear from the PVR to the display, it can be copied from the PVR's HD outputs, analog or digital, which the copyright holders of some of the content would not be happy about.

We have reasonably priced 160GB disk drives--this is enough for near 9.5 hours of 1080i, storing all of the ATSC filler, which you wouldn't want it to do. You could put two of these in a PVR selling for less than $1000, particularly if the PVR had no MPEG decoding, like Mitsubishi's HD D-VHS VCR. Of course, if there was no MPEG decoder, you'd need one of Mitsubishi's or Sony's Firewire sets to view it, or a cable or DBS STB which would decode HD FireWire input, which is what I'd like to see. MPEG decoding, with HD analog outputs would probably add a few hundred to the cost (with requisite image constraint on the analog HD outs for heavily copy-protected stuff, like HD subscription movie channels--using DTCP as currently defined, HD PPV, except for a maximum 90 minute Pause-RW-FF effects buffer, would not be recordable).

I currently watch pretty much all my television on Tivo. If there is no HD Tivo (or the equivalent) when I buy an HDTV, I'm in for serious withdrawal.

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post #3 of 13 Old 11-21-2001, 04:24 PM
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Quote:
We have reasonably priced 160GB disk drives--this is enough for near 9.5 hours of 1080i
Actually, going by the HiPix HDTV PC recording solution, it takes about 8 GB/hour for HD, so a 160 GB drive should provide around 19-20 hours of recording.

I'm waiting for these units to be released before I get an HD monitor myself. I'm way too addicted to time shifting with my ReplayTV to give that up, even for HD. Dish Network is supposed to be coming out with an HD PVR, the model 921, sometime next year. I've got my fingers crossed...

Movies look their best when they look like movies. More Patton-esque remasters!

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post #4 of 13 Old 11-21-2001, 05:00 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for the replies Jamie and Mike. So far this thread is like San Diego old home week! Nice meeting you both.

I haven't owned a PVR yet, but I know that it is more addicting than VCR's and microwave ovens. Well, now that I've seen HDTV on my Pio plasma the past couple of weeks, I feel the same way about HDTV! I called KGTV channel 10 and I was told I was only the 36th customer to call about HDTV and they have little committment to it. I also heard from KFMB after complaining about bad lip sync problems and they said , "I don't see CBS doing much more HD programming in the near future..... We are working on the lip sync problem. We loaded new software into our AC3 Encoder and it has not been the same since."

It is amazing that the local electronic stores are loaded with HDTV's and even some plasmas and the TV programmers/ DirecTV/Tivo etc seems so far behind the curve. Cheers, PlasMAN
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post #5 of 13 Old 11-21-2001, 07:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Plasman
I also heard from KFMB after complaining about bad lip sync problems and they said , "I don't see CBS doing much more HD programming in the near future.....
That's incorrect on KFMB's part. CBS is very comitted to HDTV and will have more and more of their entire schedule in HDTV. Sounds like KFMB is one of those anit-HDTV stations.

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post #6 of 13 Old 11-21-2001, 07:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jamie E
Actually, going by the HiPix HDTV PC recording solution, it takes about 8 GB/hour for HD, so a 160 GB drive should provide around 19-20 hours of recording.
Ooops! You're right. I had the 17GB for a two-hour movie figure stuck in my head and miscalculated. The 19.34 Mbps of 1080i ATSC works out to a hair less than 8.5GBph, maximum. Depending upon the actual bitrates used in the video, it reportedly can be quite a bit less. HiPix stores all of the ATSC messages, most of which could be discarded for purposes of PVR or VCR recordings.

Cool. A very adequate HD PVR could be based on a single 160 GB drive that can be bought at retail for less than $300 (and a lot less in manufacturing bulk). That should eventually translate into quite reasonable prices for the things. Of course, they'll be introduced at ripoff prices.

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post #7 of 13 Old 11-21-2001, 09:31 PM
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The technology is here to be able to do
HDTV PVRs but the content and potential customers
don't yet justify the expense to market such
a beast. We _will_ see HD PVRs in the next
couple of years as there is more content and
more people aware of the benefits of HDTV
(and cheaper displays).

Typical 1080i programming uses ~most~ of the
19.3Mbit/sec datastream so you are pretty
much stuck storing ~8gb/hr. With todays large
hard disks that is actually doable, and in a way
we are lucky that HDTV is being squeezed
down as much as it is. I think they are
compressing it as much as we can bear before
it would become "artifact city".

The HiPix stores all of the program stream
regardless of how much "padding" exists in
the ATSC packets. So the recordings take
about 8gb/hr even if they are NTSC upconverts
letterboxed with 4:3. The 19.3MBit/sec
spec is "fixed"... They don't reduce it or
increase it for different programs.
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post #8 of 13 Old 11-21-2001, 10:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by PVR
The technology is here to be able to do
HDTV PVRs but the content and potential customers
don't yet justify the expense to market such
a beast. We _will_ see HD PVRs in the next
couple of years as there is more content and
more people aware of the benefits of HDTV
(and cheaper displays).
There's certainly exactly as much reason and market for HD PVR as there is for HD VCRs, and two of those have just shipped (I saw the Mitsubishi at a Tweeter in "Baja" La Jolla (the UTC, across Genesee from Westfield Mall :)) today.
Quote:
The HiPix stores all of the program stream
regardless of how much "padding" exists in
the ATSC packets. So the recordings take
about 8gb/hr even if they are NTSC upconverts
letterboxed with 4:3. The 19.3MBit/sec
spec is "fixed"... They don't reduce it or
increase it for different programs.
I'm aware of that. You don't need to store the ATSC packets--just demux the program being recorded out of the MPEG-2 TS into a more compact elementary MPEG-2 stream and store that. I'm quite certain that the HD D-VHS VCRs do exactly that. Tom Barry has stated elsewhere that there are programs readily available for doing this that can reduce HiPix recordings anywhere from 10-30%. Of course, they produce MPEG files that can no longer be played through the HiPix card with its software, but that's a minor technicality :). The MPEG streams would be as playable through 1394 video equipment as HD prerecorded tape or DVD would be, which wouldn't contain any of that trash either.

DTCP compliant devices would probably store any DTCP_descriptor packets, and remux the playback stream to contain these, since they encapsulate copy-protection information to make it easily picked out and interpreted by non-MPEG-decoding devices. (CGMS flags can be present in the MPEG data itself, but you have to decode it to see them).

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post #9 of 13 Old 11-23-2001, 01:55 PM
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The last I heard Dish was going to release an HD PVR in late 01 or 1st qtr 02. Has this project been canceled?

Mike
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post #10 of 13 Old 11-23-2001, 03:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by MikeKO
The last I heard Dish was going to release an HD PVR in late 01 or 1st qtr 02. Has this project been canceled?

Mike
So far as I know, it hasn't been cancelled, but I don't know about those dates. My impression was that it'd be a somewhat longer wait than that: mid-to-late 2002.

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post #11 of 13 Old 11-23-2001, 05:56 PM - Thread Starter
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I hope that the Echostar/DirectTV merger accelerates plans for HD-PVR and more HDTV channels. If I have to watch Intro to HD on HDNet one more time.... PlasMAN
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post #12 of 13 Old 11-23-2001, 07:50 PM
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Mike S.

Your dates could well be more accurate / current than mine. Even if they aren't pushing out release dates is usually more accurate. Several months I got a posting (from one of the moderators?) that said 1Q of '02, and I've received some other info that it is a bit earlier. Sure would be nice if that was correct. Find out soon enough I guess.

Mike
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post #13 of 13 Old 11-23-2001, 11:15 PM
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, "I don't see CBS doing much more HD programming in the near future..... We are working on the lip sync problem. We loaded new software into our AC3 Encoder and it has not been the same since
good lord what in the world is wrong with those PeoPle, they can not be this misinformed, clearly they were just being difficult. I would ride them on technical difficulty stuff ever chance I got, if they are going to be jerks about it. Also contact management if the Problems dont get resolved. Things got better here when afew PeoPle did that.

some PeoPle are so lazy it is truly Pathic and discouraging... if it was uP to them we would all be watching radios...



The rePly to this would have been. You are correct CBS will not be doing much more HD Programming in the near future becuase they already do most of their network Primetime Programing in HD, so additional Programing will be minimal by defult....

-tony

Pardon my spelling, the checker hangs my system.
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