JVC HM-DH30000 confirmed to work with Panasonic Tu-DST50 ? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 45 Old 11-25-2001, 11:48 AM - Thread Starter
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I've about to buy the JVC HM-DH30000 D-VHS Recorder but really need to know if anyone has either:

1. recorded tapes using the Tu-DST50 receiver?
2. played back tapes previously recorded using Tu-DST50 receiver ?

Is Ecost.com the cheapest place to purchase it?
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post #2 of 45 Old 11-25-2001, 05:33 PM
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Our comapny just got one of these for evaluation on Wednesday. We currently have over 20 PVHD1000's/50/51s and an ATSC encoding system.

Initial tests:
1) Did play back PVHD1000 tapes through the DH30000 component outputs. They were not image constrained, but then the tapes had no 5C encoding either. These were tapes we made with our encoder. On Monday I will try some HBO and Dish tapes from my 5000 modulator system.

2) Unit does not appear to have an ATSC tuner built in. This means it cannot record OTA in HDTV.

3) It appears from the manual it does have an MPEG2 encoder to record a digital signal from analog sources such as the NTSC tuner, Svideo, and Composite video. That is why I can't understand the lack of ATSC tuner built in.

3) I tried it with a Panny DSTU51. The DH30000 did status to the 51 STB but no picture on playback. This leads me to believe the protocol is compatable but the video data is different or encrypted. I did not have time to attempt recording.

4) We are meeting with JVC sales engineers on Monday. I will do further testing and report what I can.

Note: I may be bound by non-disclosure and be limited to what I can report.

aka Glimmie
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post #3 of 45 Old 11-25-2001, 05:52 PM
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Glimmie,
Thank you for your preliminary report.

Playback through the Panasonic STBs has not been possible (with some rare exceptions) on the Japanese 30000 either. However, the JVC can play back tapes on its own via the component outputs so this ability is not crucial.

The more pertinent question is the ability to record from and accept commands (particularly for time shifting) from the Panasonic STBs. If it can do so reliably then the PV-HD1000s will cease to be in such great demand.

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post #4 of 45 Old 11-25-2001, 06:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Glimmie
3) That is why I can't understand the lack of ATSC tuner built in.
Neither can I, which is why those many of us without the HD1000 setup won't be buying this unit or the Mits D-VHS unit. Clearly these manufacturers didn't wanna step on anyones toes.

G.
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post #5 of 45 Old 11-25-2001, 06:25 PM
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I believe the exclusion of an ATSC tuner is probably less sinister than it appears.

The Japanese model does not have a tuner either and is dependent on firewire linkage to a satellite BS receiver.
The US model has so far exhibited no significant differences.

JVC wanted to be the first back into the US market with a DVHS product-incorporating an ATSC tuner would have delayed that goal significantly.

I have been told that JVC does plan on introducing an STB next year.

The ideal candidate for firewire linkage with the JVC would appear to be the 169 modded DTC100. ;)

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post #6 of 45 Old 11-25-2001, 10:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by tmitchmd
I believe the exclusion of an ATSC tuner is probably less sinister than it appears.

The Japanese model does not have a tuner either and is dependent on firewire linkage to a satellite BS receiver.
The US model has so far exhibited no significant differences.

JVC wanted to be the first back into the US market with a DVHS product-incorporating an ATSC tuner would have delayed that goal significantly.

I have been told that JVC does plan on introducing an STB next year.

The ideal candidate for firewire linkage with the JVC would appear to be the 169 modded DTC100. ;)
Remember too that this product is a simple rework of the Japanise model.

1) 8vsb ATSC is an AMERICAN system for now. Therefore the Japan version would have no use for such a tuner.

2) Until a few months ago the 8vsb system was under challange with an open ear from the FCC. No well managed manufacture would commit to either of the competing standards at that time.

3) If they intend to sell this unit in CODFM markets such as Europe and Australlia which has HDTV, they now have at least two models to support. This will soon not be an issue, after all the make NTSC and PAL VHS machines. But for an initial product offering, it is very expensive to tool for multiple models which may be full of bugs and lack of user foresight.

And like I said it appears to me it doesn't have an ATSC tuner. I really didn't get a chance to dig into it Wednesday night. I will let you know unless someone else has information on this.

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post #7 of 45 Old 11-25-2001, 10:15 PM - Thread Starter
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Glimmie, I'm really looking forward to your testing of the playback of HBO/Showtime movies on the JVC unit..

And more importantly if some how it can be made to work with the Tu-DST50.

I'm tempting to replace my PV-HD1000 with the new JVC, which has the added bonus feature of recording analog materials digitally with doublet the tape time.
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post #8 of 45 Old 11-25-2001, 10:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by jlin
Glimmie, I'm really looking forward to your testing of the playback of HBO/Showtime movies on the JVC unit..

And more importantly if some how it can be made to work with the Tu-DST50.
Good point. I initially tested it with a TUDST51. The 51 is said to be 5C compliant. The 50 is said not to be. So perhaps the 50 may work. I also have some 50's that have been factory serviced for the "blue sparkle" problem and some that have not. If the 50 works, we will now finally know if Panasonic did add copy protection units in for service.

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post #9 of 45 Old 11-27-2001, 06:20 AM
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I ordered one from ecost which should arrive friday. I will then immediately check out if it plays back HBO/Showtime/PPV/BS tapes hopefully not imagerestrained.

I mainly purchased one to use as a playback unit, so recording is not crucial. I would imagine that it will work with Dish Network's upcoming receiver with built in firewire.


Bernhard
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post #10 of 45 Old 11-27-2001, 06:33 PM
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I am using the Japanese DH30000 to record from the TU-DST50. No problems. However, while the DH30000 will play back through its own component outputs, it can't be used as a DVHS deck to play back through the Panny.

All ATSC-sourced tapes I've made have been interoperable on the PV-HD1000, DH30000, and Mitsubishi HM-HS2000, which is very good news.

FWIW, I can make two simultaneous recordings by using the Orangelink Firewire hub inserted between the TU-DST50 and the PV-HD1000; the DH30000 snoops the bus and can record the stream from the TU-DST50.

So to reiterate,
1) The JVC DH30000 (Japanese version) will record from the TU-DST50 but not play back through the TU-DST50.

2) all ATSC-sourced D-VHS tapes are compatible among the three commercially available D-VHS decks I've tested.

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post #11 of 45 Old 11-27-2001, 07:15 PM
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I've never been able to get either of my 2 japanese Victor 30000 decks to record from a TU 50 or 51.

Is there a trick to this?

Bernhard
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post #12 of 45 Old 11-28-2001, 12:40 AM
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Bernhard,

The Japanese DH30000 can record from TU-DST50/51. Just do the following.

Play back a tape, the Panny will immediately stop the JVC. Then select I-1 or 2, the JVC can now record/stop/record at will from the Panny STB.

My Japanese 30000 can play back through TU-DST51, it is possible because I have access to a firewire device which is capable to send a "special" command to the TU-DST51. But this is not a big deal because the JVC already has component output.
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post #13 of 45 Old 11-28-2001, 08:02 AM
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The US decks dont sound good but the Japan deck sure does.
If this deck was something the 169time dtc100 could talk to would this be positive. Seems to be generally cheaper than the hd1000 and can be gotten easily.

Can some load Richard a deck for a few days to look at?

dave
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post #14 of 45 Old 11-28-2001, 08:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by spham17
My Japanese 30000 can play back through TU-DST51, it is possible because I have access to a firewire device which is capable to send a "special" command to the TU-DST51. But this is not a big deal because the JVC already has component output.
spham17,
Could you enlighten us about this firewire device? This is very important because the JVC component output is 5C compliant (constrained image), and some of the Panny STB's are not.

-Roger
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post #15 of 45 Old 11-28-2001, 08:35 AM
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I am interested in the info on this special device also.

dave
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post #16 of 45 Old 11-28-2001, 11:48 AM
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Basically, video/audio data transfer in the 1394 systems as isochronous packets as specified in the 1394 protocol. In theory, there are up to 64 isochronous channels are available if they can all fit in. A source device sending iso. packet will use one channel, the sink device will receive i.e record/display if it is configured to the same channel.

By default, the Panny STB uses channel 0 for transmit and receive, while the JVC use channel 63. In ideal case, devices should communicates to exchange information. Unfortunately, this is not the case, the JVC can record from Panny STB because it is told to change its default channel
(some trick involved here). On the other hand, the Panny being early to market, does not change its
default channel unless being issued a specific command to do so. This command is actually part of AVC protocol

This is how I used the firewire device to send command to the Panny. I have firewire bus analyzer card to send command out. If you have OHCI card with its documentation and Debugger, you can manually configure OHCI's DMA in debug mode to send any commands. Because it is getting more technical, if you know what you are doing then email me for the command
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post #17 of 45 Old 11-28-2001, 01:32 PM
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Could this be accomplished somehow with a PCI firewire card plugged into a PC?

Mark
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post #18 of 45 Old 11-28-2001, 01:48 PM
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Yes, most PCI firewire cards are OHCI compliance. With Debugger tools, you can locate the base address of the card i.e. OHCI's DMA registers (each PCI card having the base address dynamically assigned by Window OS) and then the memory location where the command to be written. Basically, you need to set up DMA descriptor and AV command at the memory location that DMA will access to when it is started. As I said, it is getting more technical and you need OHCI specification to know what to do.
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post #19 of 45 Old 11-28-2001, 03:35 PM
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If any of you guys have any D-VHS tapes of HD programming that you do not care to keep, I would like very much to borrow, rent, or purchase some so that I will have something to playback in my JVC 30000 (US Version). And I sure hope this is legal. I have a Motorola 4DTV with an HDD-200 HD decoder, but no 1394 link to feed the JVC VCR. Thaks!

Mauro
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post #20 of 45 Old 11-28-2001, 03:41 PM
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spham17,

I have the Unibrain Fire-i OHCI package that I haven't installed yet. Is this close to what you are using?

-Roger
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post #21 of 45 Old 11-28-2001, 06:32 PM
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All OHCI cards based on the silicons from just a few manufacturers but designed from the same specification. I have two firewire cards, one is OHCI 1.0 the other is not and both are based on silicons from TI.

Your OHCI card should be fine.
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post #22 of 45 Old 11-28-2001, 10:06 PM
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Some of you asked me for more detail of the command to change the Panny STB. I must stress that the procedure is very simple but it requires some knowledge of the tools (both hardware and software in case that you use the PCI OHCI card) that you are using. What I can do here is to provide the "command" that must be sent to the Panny to change its default setting.

The good 1394 bus analyzer such as 3A International is very expensive (>$20K) and out of reach to most of us. Even the lowest cost (<=$1K) is still expensive to some of us. However, PCI OHCI card is very cheap (about $60 at Fry). The advantage of the bus analyzer is to inject packet traffic to any node i.e device and is useful for silicon and software debug. To accomplice the same result with PCI firewire card, you need to be familiar with PCI and/or OHCI specification. If you know someone who develops driver for Window then ask him for a copy of Debugger or to recommend one. I recalled that it was a freeware and forgot the company name. Since I have the bus analyzer, I don't need to program to OHCI card. Program the OHCI chip is nothing more than typing memory read/write commands while in debug mode.

Enough for the lecture, here is the fun part.

Isochrnous capable devices (i.e support real-time video/audio) must support some core CSR registers (1394 standard). One of the register we are interested in is called Channel_Available_Lo/Hi pairs. Each register contains 32-bit so the pair will have 64-bit and these bits map one-on-one to channel number i.e set bits 31-0 to all 1's indicates channel 31 to 0 are used by the device. So the goal is to set the bit 63 to '1'. This is the "comand" I talked about in my previous post

I am going to stop here. If enough of you are interested then I can post the actual command as seen on the wire. But if only a few are interested then I don't want to annoy others forum readers with the long and boring post.
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post #23 of 45 Old 11-29-2001, 06:08 AM
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spham17,

Bore us...please;)!!! Do go on!!!

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post #24 of 45 Old 11-29-2001, 07:26 AM
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More

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post #25 of 45 Old 11-29-2001, 07:34 AM
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spham17

Please continue with the command details-I cannot imagine a less boring post.

Milton Henry
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post #26 of 45 Old 11-29-2001, 09:24 AM
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spham17,

Improving and expanding the 1394 communication with the panny combo is a central issue at this forum. Nothing could be more important.

-Roger
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post #27 of 45 Old 11-29-2001, 11:14 AM
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Folks,

You got it, I'll post it later today. I am at work now and I don't have the it with me. The command has many fields and I'll explain them in detail

Dave,

Look like you already know the command. Yes it is lock transaction with "compare-swap" subcode.
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post #28 of 45 Old 11-29-2001, 01:32 PM
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Here is the command

The command to change the
channels is a "lock request to location 224" .

Dave
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post #29 of 45 Old 11-29-2001, 09:21 PM
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As promised, this is the firewire command you are waiting for.

1394 devices communicate with each other by generating bus transactions which appear on the wire as asynchronous packets. The packet contains serveral fields such as the node destination address and monitored by all. Only node with matching address will receive and react upon.

As I said in my previous post, two CSR registers that we are interested in are Channel_Available_Hi and Channel_Available_Lo whose memory address are xxxxFFFFF0000224h and ....228h respectively (1394 bus is 64-bit memory bus architecture). Our goal is to set bit 63 to 1 in Chan_Avail_Hi register and do nothing to the other. One may ask if a write transaction is sufficient, with only 2 devices are connect i.e Panny STB and OHCI, the answer is yes. However, if there are many devices are connected, it may occur that more than one wish to modify this register then a write command may be overwritten by the subsequent write. This is where the lock transaction comes in to ensure that the transaction is sucessful.

As Dave correctly said the command is simply "a lock transaction to offset 224h". In the wire, the command looks like this in 32-bit word

FFCxDD90
FFCyFFFF
F0000224
00080002
(crc code)
FFFFFFFE
FEFFFFFE
(crc code)

The first word shows an 'x' and 'y' on the second. The x is node id of the Panny STB (it can be 0 or 1 if only two device are connected). If 'x' is 0 then 'y' is 1 and vice versa. The node id is dynamically assigned and it is available for reading from OHCI registers. Note that the crc codes are automatically generated by OHCI Link.

The relevant words need some explanation are the two between crc codes. The first word is "compare" value, the second word is for "swap". A node receives this command will examine its register and compare it with the "compare" value and if not equal, will replace it with the "swap" value.

Your task is to slap the OHCI card around until it spits out the correct command.

There you have it. Have fun hacking.

Steve
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post #30 of 45 Old 11-29-2001, 11:36 PM
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This is facinating! Over my head, but facinating. I guess the big question is; Does this put us one step closer to being able to dump video from D-VHS to my hard drive (& visa versa). Or even more usefull... record from DST-50 directly to a Hard Drive?

Yes I realize that even if we can eventually dump the bitstream onto a hard drive, we still need a codec to read it. May I strongly recommend that when we do reach that point, somebody create a QuickTime compatible codec. That way we can do anything we wish with the video (including edit, transcode, etc) My long term goal is to dump all of my HD movies to my computer recompress them using Sorenson Video 3 (at full HD res) and fit them onto DVD-R discs (for HTPC playback, of course).

Jeremy

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