I Have Seen the Future and it Sucks: The JVC HM-DH30000 - Page 2 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #31 of 33 Old 11-30-2001, 06:21 PM
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Originally posted by Glimmie
1) "5C will not be cracked". There is no such thing as a secure lock. The more invasive these schemes come into use, there will be more and more skilled honest people who will work to defeat them, not to steal but to circumvent overly restrictive use.
No one is saying that 5C won't be cracked, not even 5C--their own white papers admit that nothing is permanently secure. Certainly the weaker, low-compute-power authentication scheme designed for protection of "Copy One Generation" and "Copy No More" content is particularly vulnerable (though quite a bit less vulnerable than HDCP). But thus far no one has suggested an attack on either DTCP or HDCP that wouldn't require a substantial investment (hundreds of thousands of dollars) in equipment to mount. And even given some keys to use, a device to use those keys would cost several hundreds of dollars each to make in small quantities. These facts should keep piracy at a controllable level. They hope that it will keep it at a level that will allow them to control it with due diligence and legal prosecution.
2) "There will not be any bugs" How many updates have DirecTV and Echostar done that have caused problems. Just search these boards. The idea it hasn't happened yet is simply because until a month ago teher has not even been product availablee to buy on the open market.
Bugs in firmware releases are different from bugs in the distribution of a list of keys. The keys are distributed with, essentially, checksums. The chance of random errors entering one of these lists and producing a valid checksum that would allow a device to adopt it seems diminishingly small to me. BTW, I've been using Tivo for years (a device whose firmware gets periodically updated over phone lines overnight) and haven't encountered a single fatal error introduced (not to say no one has, but I bang on mine pretty heavily, though I certainly don't use all of its features). Competent engineering groups using good development methods in a disciplined fashion can release code that's reasonably reliable.
3) "Compromised keys will be replaced for free" Well I can see one way this will work. "unless you buy our five year warranty extension plan.....". Other than that it's not going to happen, it never does. The attitude will most likely be "we didn't cause this problem, your fellow customers did. Shoplifting raises prices, not loss of profits".
I suspect that they'll just pass any costs on in increased prices for future products. These are devices that might stop working by design and for no reason that's the fault of the owner. I'm fairly sure that the manufacturers could be sued for replacement (and court costs) under those circumstances. Of couse, I'm not a lawyer. :)

And maybe they'll get a tax break for it--are business loses caused by theft tax deductible?
4) The studios will embrace this up to the point it impacts P&L. There is always a risk versus profit factor. Divx proved that very clearly.
I'm not saying 5C will not happen. By all current reports it is alive and well. Fortunatly from my contacts with studios and equipment manufactures the implementation is very reasonable - examplr image constraint on JVC, though they do acknolowedge all your concerns and no doubt have plans for them if pushed into it. If you wish to see those affiliations I speak of, search my the parent site of my URL.
No ever answers my question: how do you sell things to people if they can get them without paying? In a year or two, we'll start seeing cable modem service at 36-50 Mbps down, provided to allow legitimate trade in large media files. If the studios allow movement of the digital form of their IP across home A/V networks, people will capture that digital presentation and post it for download online. As downloading this stuff gets faster and easier, maybe not everyone will do it, but a sizeable percentage of the people who are the primary market for after-theater sales and rental of popular films will. I've been astounded by the people that I know who are willing to steal DBS--you'd never take any of these folks for thieves. But after endlessly listening to their co-workers brag about receiving for free what they'd been paying a heavy price for, they start feeling foolish for paying and buy an illegal POD card or two. I've also listened to co-workers and others rationalize their theft of copyrighted music on downloaded MP3 files, which they're quite satisfied with and have no intention of paying for in any form. It's just incredible.

There's about as much chance of catching all or any significant portion of the people involved in the theft of copyrighted digital media as there is of catching the people who speed on the highway each day. Serious attempts to prevent casual theft are the only way to deal with this. If you can see other ways, please, speak up.

I ran across this story the other day. And the beat goes on.

-- Mike Scott

Mike Scott (XBL: MikeHellion, PSN: MarcHellion)

"Think of the cable company as a group of terrorist (sic)." -- hookbill
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post #32 of 33 Old 12-10-2001, 06:45 PM
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Originally posted by tmitchmd
Upon further review:

Just disregard everything I said at the top of the thread.

Well not everything... but

With a bit more experimentation tonight I accomplished the following:

--Will indeed record from PV-HD1000 and can be used as either playback or recording deck (ATSC only).
--Will record from updated TU-DST50 STB
Hey there tmitchmd,

Can you please more clearly define an "updated TU-DST50 STB"?

Is there a firmware level you need, and if so what is it?

I would love to get some concrete answers so that I can move towards recording from my DST50...

Thanks in advance.

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post #33 of 33 Old 12-10-2001, 10:00 PM
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Congress will take up these issues next month. If the problem you all attest too can happen, guess what Congress might do.

I think we will see some of the 5C stuff outlaw by Congress withing 2 years. Once they determine that 5C or any copy-protection scheme may derail the digital TV transitation they will have to make some new laws to protect the consumer.

We do remember the Batamax Case.

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