I Have Seen the Future and it Sucks: The JVC HM-DH30000 - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 33 Old 11-27-2001, 11:50 PM - Thread Starter
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First the good news:
-Will play back all those ATSC tapes you've been collecting; no problem there.

-Those tapes ARE still dubbable but ONLY using the JVC as the playback deck and the Panasonic as recording.

Will not:
-Play back BS tapes from Japan. After seeing a split second of the actual material on the tape a grey screen appears with the message,"Can not decode. Use set top box or HDTV Tuner(200)."

(Page 73 of the manual contains a number 5c inspired messages featuring terms like "prohibited', "can not decode", "copy restricted prog output", "can not play back this tape...")

-Record from the TU-DST50 or 51. (I suppose JVC is planning release of a compatible STB next year).


The demo tape of Japanese scenery that comes with the 30000 also lends some clues as to where all this is leading:

-Cannot be dubbed-period. Not to or from the Panasonic nor the Japanese 30000.
Moreover, it will not play back from the Panasonic gear NOR the Japanese 30000.


Am I the only one with the sneaking suspicion that somebody out there does not wish to see HDTV succeed?

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post #2 of 33 Old 11-28-2001, 07:52 AM
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Todd, I would assume that all this data on the JVC does not
give good news that the dtc100 will be able to talk to it?

dave
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post #3 of 33 Old 11-28-2001, 08:52 AM
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Todd,

This is the DH30000U?

-Roger
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post #4 of 33 Old 11-28-2001, 10:17 AM
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Todd, does the playback with tapes from the Panny still exhibit audio drop outs occasionally (like on the Japanese 30000) ? I'm curious about that.

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post #5 of 33 Old 11-28-2001, 11:15 AM - Thread Starter
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I did not watch any one tapelong enough to comment about the audio dropouts that are endemic to the Japanese model when playing back ATSC tapes, as Brian has pointed out.

If anyone else has any thing else they want tested please speak up today because I will be returning the unit tomorrow (Thanks Larry!).

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post #6 of 33 Old 11-28-2001, 03:44 PM
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Hi tmitchmd!
From the manual I got the impression that this machine dows not have an output function on the IEEE-1394 interface. But you seem to indicate that it does! Where they discuss video editing, the manual says that the 30000 can only be used as the record VCR when editing from a DV camcorder. Amd I connected the iLink (1394) output to a Sony transcoder which converts DV into analog S-video and audio signals, but could not get it to work. So, I concluded that the 30000 has no 1394 output at all to avoid the dubbing of digital recordings. Any comments? Thanks!

Mauro
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post #7 of 33 Old 11-28-2001, 04:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by MF70
Hi tmitchmd!
From the manual I got the impression that this machine dows not have an output function on the IEEE-1394 interface. But you seem to indicate that it does! Where they discuss video editing, the manual says that the 30000 can only be used as the record VCR when editing from a DV camcorder. Amd I connected the iLink (1394) output to a Sony transcoder which converts DV into analog S-video and audio signals, but could not get it to work. So, I concluded that the 30000 has no 1394 output at all to avoid the dubbing of digital recordings. Any comments? Thanks!
It converts DV recordings input through 1394 into D-VHS format and it comes out in the same format as recorded HD would--it does not output DV.

But doesn't it output downconverted analog from its S-video and composite connectors anyway? Couldn't you just watch and/or dub that?

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post #8 of 33 Old 11-28-2001, 04:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by tmitchmd
The demo tape of Japanese scenery that comes with the 30000 also lends some clues as to where all this is leading:

-Cannot be dubbed-period. Not to or from the Panasonic nor the Japanese 30000.
Moreover, it will not play back from the Panasonic gear NOR the Japanese 30000.
This would be consistent with a tape encoded with "Copy No More" or "Copy Never" (except that a "Copy Never" tape couldn't be played back through the analog outputs without image constraint). "Copy No More"+Image Constraint Flags would not be dubbable, but would be playable in full HD resolution through analog outs--this is a mode that could be used with programming on channels like Discovery or A&E (the DTCP Adopter's Agreement allows them to give it "Copy One Generation" protection, because it's pay television, but not to image-constrain it, because it contains commercial interruptions).

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post #9 of 33 Old 11-29-2001, 10:20 AM
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Thanks, michaeltscott, for your kind answer. I understand now why I did not get any AV out of my 1394 transcoder. The output from the JVC is compatible with the 1394 protocol, but it is NOT compatible with the DV format! (or vice versa, for I do not know what is the protocol and what is the format). Thanks, I am using the composite, S, and also component outputs from the JVC already! What I was trying to do before was to transmit audio and video by using a 70-foot IEEE-1394 cable to transmit audio and video to another room in the house. Thanks musch, friend!

Mauro
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post #10 of 33 Old 11-29-2001, 10:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by MF70
Thanks, michaeltscott, for your kind answer. I understand now why I did not get any AV out of my 1394 transcoder. The output from the JVC is compatible with the 1394 protocol, but it is NOT compatible with the DV format! (or vice versa, for I do not know what is the protocol and what is the format). Thanks, I am using the composite, S, and also component outputs from the JVC already! What I was trying to do before was to transmit audio and video by using a 70-foot IEEE-1394 cable to transmit audio and video to another room in the house. Thanks musch, friend!
If you're interested, I wrote a longer post here explaining the A/V protocol "stacks" a little and how FireWire fits in them.

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post #11 of 33 Old 11-29-2001, 01:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by bwiklem
Todd, does the playback with tapes from the Panny still exhibit audio drop outs occasionally (like on the Japanese 30000) ? I'm curious about that.
I received my 30000U today and used it for about 3 hours. No drop outs at all. I played back tapes recorded from PPV, HBO, Showtime, ABC, PBS, and all played at full resolution. As stated earlier it won't play BS tapes, but I expected this since it doesn't have an AAC decoder, even if it did play the BS tapes, the menu would have to be changed to PCM every time, so it might as well not play it. It will however play them via firewire using a japanese decoder.

It is interesting that the demo tape won't play on anything but the JVC. This indicates to me that any possible prerecorded tapes will be in the same format as the demo tape, so they won't play on anything but the JVC.

Bernhard
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post #12 of 33 Old 11-29-2001, 01:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by bb1987
It is interesting that the demo tape won't play on anything but the JVC. This indicates to me that any possible prerecorded tapes will be in the same format as the demo tape, so they won't play on anything but the JVC.
Woah! I hadn't caught Todd's statement that the tape would only play on the US JVC deck--that is queer. Copy-protection could explain the "indubbability" of it, but not that. Hopefully it's just a fluke. Didn't JVC invent the D-VHS format? You'd think that they could make interchangeable prerecorded tapes. This sort of thing isn't good for them or anyone else.

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post #13 of 33 Old 11-29-2001, 01:34 PM
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Can you record from the dst50, or just play tapes that were recorded via dst50/hd1000?

dave
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post #14 of 33 Old 11-29-2001, 04:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by h2ofun
Can you record from the dst50, or just play tapes that were recorded via dst50/hd1000?

dave
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post #15 of 33 Old 11-29-2001, 05:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by bb1987


It is interesting that the demo tape won't play on anything but the JVC. This indicates to me that any possible prerecorded tapes will be in the same format as the demo tape, so they won't play on anything but the JVC.

Bernhard
The JVC can operate at 24mbs or as high as 28.8mbs. If the demo tape is encoded at one of those rates, a PVHD1000/DSTU51/51 will not play it. Both Fox and Universal plan to use the higher bit rates as an edge over OTA and DBS HDTV.

Although I don't believe this is intentional, it also means these pre-recorded tapes will not play on the old Panasonic systems. JVC also claims the initial pre-recorded offerings will not be image constrained. They plan to keep it this way until 1394 equipped TV's are more widespread. Of course this is ultimatly up to the contect owners on a per release basis.

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post #16 of 33 Old 11-29-2001, 05:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by DHarp193


"DITTO"...
I believe that question was already answered in the original post: No

Bernhard
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post #17 of 33 Old 11-29-2001, 05:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Glimmie


The JVC can operate at 24mbs or as high as 28.8mbs. If the demo tape is encoded at one of those rates, a PVHD1000/DSTU51/51 will not play it. Both Fox and Universal plan to use the higher bit rates as an edge over OTA and DBS HDTV.

Although I don't believe this is intentional, it also means these pre-recorded tapes will not play on the old Panasonic systems. JVC also claims the initial pre-recorded offerings will not be image constrained. They plan to keep it this way until 1394 equipped TV's are more widespread. Of course this is ultimatly up to the contect owners on a per release basis.
That makes sense but it still doesn't explain the fact that the demo tape won't run on the Japanese Victor 30000 as that machine also operates at 28.8mbs.

Bernhard
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post #18 of 33 Old 11-29-2001, 05:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by bb1987

It is interesting that the demo tape won't play on anything but the JVC. This indicates to me that any possible prerecorded tapes will be in the same format as the demo tape, so they won't play on anything but the JVC.

Bernhard
Just to clarify, when you say that the pre-recorded tape won't play on the PV-HD1000, are you really seeing the deck's ability to play back the tape, or are you seeing the DST-5x's inability to allow the signal to pass (5C?). An interesting experiment would be to see if you can copy the tape from the Panasonic to the (US) JVC. If this is possible, then it certainly points to a copyguard issue.

Arnold
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post #19 of 33 Old 11-29-2001, 07:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Glimmie
Both Fox and Universal plan to use the higher bit rates as an edge over OTA and DBS HDTV.
Fox and Universal have confirmed plans to release prerecorded tapes? Interesting. Universal had made statements to the press early this year against the idea (not liking the idea of tapes on the market that looked better than DVDs).

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post #20 of 33 Old 11-29-2001, 07:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by achase
Just to clarify, when you say that the pre-recorded tape won't play on the PV-HD1000, are you really seeing the deck's ability to play back the tape, or are you seeing the DST-5x's inability to allow the signal to pass (5C?). An interesting experiment would be to see if you can copy the tape from the Panasonic to the (US) JVC. If this is possible, then it certainly points to a copyguard issue.
Hopefully Todd's Panasonic still talks to his DST. If the DSTs have a faulty 5C implementation, as has been suspected here, they may have been placed on the US JVC recorders' initial Certificate Revocation List, which it could have passed to the Panasonic if they completed authentication together (the Panasonic, passing authentication, should have noticed the fresher CRL and requested it). It would be better (for the experimenter's equipment), if both the TU-DST5x's and the PV-HD1000s have placed on the JVC's CRL, and it refuses to talk to either (that way it won't poison the mind of the Panasonic recorder against the Panasonic STB). Even if the Panasonic recorder absorbed a new CRL which would prevent it from making secure connections to the STB, it might still be capable of playing non-copy-protected tapes through it.

So many things are possible--no telling without a 5C protocol analyzer.

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post #21 of 33 Old 11-29-2001, 08:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by michaeltscott
Hopefully Todd's Panasonic still talks to his DST. If the DSTs have a faulty 5C implementation, as has been suspected here, they may have been placed on the US JVC recorders' initial Certificate Revocation List, which it could have passed to the Panasonic if they completed authentication together (the Panasonic, passing authentication, should have noticed the fresher CRL and requested it). It would be better (for the experimenter's equipment), if both the TU-DST5x's and the PV-HD1000s have placed on the JVC's CRL, and it refuses to talk to either (that way it won't poison the mind of the Panasonic recorder against the Panasonic STB). Even if the Panasonic recorder absorbed a new CRL which would prevent it from making secure connections to the STB, it might still be capable of playing non-copy-protected tapes through it.

So many things are possible--no telling without a 5C protocol analyzer.

-- Mike Scott
I'll admit, I have not read about this CRL system but it sounds like a huge legal issue is being born here. It's one thing for the JVC deck not to interoperate with other equipment due to "security differences". But to go out and destroy interoperability between two prevoiusly functioning pieces of equipment is not acceptable. The consumer rights groups are going to have a field day with this one.

Even if it's done "properly" there will be bugs. Perfectly legitimate equipment could be put out of service. This forum will serve as a huge conduit to publicize this issue.

This simply goes too far. Perhaps this is within the spec but no manufacture will dare implement it. IMO, it's too risky.

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post #22 of 33 Old 11-29-2001, 10:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Glimmie
I'll admit, I have not read about this CRL system but it sounds like a huge legal issue is being born here. It's one thing for the JVC deck not to interoperate with other equipment due to "security differences". But to go out and destroy interoperability between two prevoiusly functioning pieces of equipment is not acceptable. The consumer rights groups are going to have a field day with this one.
Don't get your panties all in a bunch, Glimmie :). We don't know that it did this, just that it could have. And the JVC would not have destroyed the interoperability of the two units--the Panasonic would have willingly taken the CRL from it. Like I said before, it would have asked for it.
Quote:
Even if it's done "properly" there will be bugs. Perfectly legitimate equipment could be put out of service. This forum will serve as a huge conduit to publicize this issue.

This simply goes too far. Perhaps this is within the spec but no manufacture will dare implement it. IMO, it's too risky.
How do you see "bugs" happening? The exchange of CRLs happen over secure protocols with error checking. And yes, it is conceivable that perfectly legitimate equipment could be temporarily disabled by design--if the block of certificates from which the equipment was provisioned was compromised (i.e., known to have been stolen from the manufacturer). One would expect the manufacturer to reprovision the unit in a free service call, should this ever happen.

Just another of my "gloom and doom" theories :). Even I wouldn't bother disabling the TU-DST5x's/PV-HD1000 combos--they aren't a very big security hole, since, at worst, from our conversation here, they might be coercible into displaying copy-protected material through analog outputs without image constraint. Big woo--there's no easy or inexpensive way to capture and digitize that output, and probably won't be within the working lifetime of the remaining TU-DST5x's. But it wouldn't be expensive to place those certificates on the CRL. They have to set an initial CRL anyway (though it might be blank at this point)--it will always be set with the latest list of known compromised certificates. If the Panasonics are known not to be protocol compliant, then they might not want to let new, properly compliant equipment talk to them.

Implementation of this is not optional--you implement DTCP as written or you use none of it, by legally enforceable agreement. If a manufacturer is found to be distributing non-compliant devices after passing compliance testing, via that same contract he could lose his license to manufacture devices with DTCP interfaces and be made to pay damages to the DTLA (capped, for some reason, at eight million dollars). In any case, I'd expect all the manufacturers who add these interfaces to equipment to use off-the-shelf chipsets and firmware to do it, all of which will implement this automatically.

It should be noted that HDCP contains the same mechanism. The intent is that the possible theft of keys (ala CSS) not render the protection mechanism permanently broken. Fresh CRLs will be distributed from your cable or DBS headend, or on recent prerecorded media and will automatically propogate through your A/V network as pieces of equipment interact with one another through secure connections over copy-protected interfaces.

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post #23 of 33 Old 11-30-2001, 01:16 AM - Thread Starter
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Upon further review:

Just disregard everything I said at the top of the thread.

Well not everything... but

With a bit more experimentation tonight I accomplished the following:

--Will indeed record from PV-HD1000 and can be used as either playback or recording deck (ATSC only).
--Will record from updated TU-DST50 STB! But would not from 51. Go figure.
--Will record from Japanese 30K (ATSC only).

--Will not record demo tape from either PVHD1000 (it freaks with this tape and displays CP whether it is connected to the 30000U or not) or Japanese 30K(which like the Panasonic duo will NOT display this tape).
--Will not playback Japanese BS tapes whether placed directly in the 30000U or when receiving signal from PV-HD1000. The Japanese 30K will playback from either source.

So, perhaps things are not quite as bleak as I first thought.
Or perhaps these are some buggy little devils!

Will be fine as a standalone ATSC playback deck or for dubbing using a 1000 as the second deck.
Don't know why the 50 works and the 51 didn't. Not likely as facile a connection with the STB as the 1000, so would not at this point recommend this as one's only DVHS.
Scanning is certainly a nice feature.

If it can be made to talk nicely with the 169time DTC100 then this could even achieve greatness.

All in all not a bad buy for ~$1200.

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post #24 of 33 Old 11-30-2001, 08:14 AM
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Tmitchmd,

A couple of questions for you:

- Do you know whether the unit will record from a NON-modified TU-DST50?

- When you say "with a bit more experimentation" -- was there any "trick" or special configuration required to get it working?

Does anyone have any theories on why a modified/fixed TU-DST50 would work, but a DST-51 wouldn't?

Steve
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post #25 of 33 Old 11-30-2001, 10:13 AM
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So Mike, let me see if I understand this:

I buy a future Sanyo DVHS VCR. A year into it's life someone hacks it's 5C implementation and now through illegal channels people can get their unit modified by balck market shops or themselves to play protected media in the clear. So the industry learns of this and puts this Sanyo model on the CRL effectivily disabling it.

Now what happens to all those custiomers tyhat own them and have not had them modified?

Yiou claim the 5C CRL is a contractual agreement. That doesn't mean all items of the agreement are legal or would stand up to legal scrutiny. The law does make it a crime to infect any computer system with a virus OR OTHERWISE DELIBERTLY CORRUPT IT'S PERFORMANCE. The CRL scenerio does just that. That is to go out and shut down hardware suspected of being compromised.

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post #26 of 33 Old 11-30-2001, 12:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Glimmie
So Mike, let me see if I understand this:

I buy a future Sanyo DVHS VCR. A year into it's life someone hacks it's 5C implementation and now through illegal channels people can get their unit modified by balck market shops or themselves to play protected media in the clear. So the industry learns of this and puts this Sanyo model on the CRL effectivily disabling it.

Now what happens to all those custiomers tyhat own them and have not had them modified?

Yiou claim the 5C CRL is a contractual agreement. That doesn't mean all items of the agreement are legal or would stand up to legal scrutiny. The law does make it a crime to infect any computer system with a virus OR OTHERWISE DELIBERTLY CORRUPT IT'S PERFORMANCE. The CRL scenerio does just that. That is to go out and shut down hardware suspected of being compromised.
It doesn't shut down any hardware--it just forbids other hardware to have secure conversations with it. I'm not certain, but I think that other pieces of hardware could still pass that piece whose certificate is compromised non-protected media, like OTA televisions and cable or DBS rebroadcasts thereof, and recordings of same. I think that DTCP only comes into play on devices which implement it if a sink (television, recorder, etc) requests copy-protected media from a source (STB, player, etc). Then the source requests the appropriate level of authentication, and if the sink fails for any reason (like presenting a certificate on the CRL) it's denied access to the requested content.

If this is implemented properly, one would expect a piece of hardware that finds its certificate on the CRL to inform its owner that it needs service, and that, using some kind of secure method, the service person would give it a new certificate, or swap it out for a refurb and let them do it in the factory.

This is not a virus--it is part of a security protocol designed to allow security breaches to be healed. It is encumbent on the people using these keys values in their products that they handle them properly--I can think of elaborate methods for distributing them that would defy all but the most determined and technically skilled thieves. DVDs had been distributed for several years before the security breach that enabled DeCSS (a leak of keys from a software company). One would hope that such leaks would be extremely rare. Similarly sensitive information is successfully kept secure--how often are batches of names, addresses, credit card numbers and expiration dates leaked from the banks who issue the cards?

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post #27 of 33 Old 11-30-2001, 01:15 PM
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Similarly sensitive information is successfully kept secure--how often are batches of names, addresses, credit card numbers and expiration dates leaked from the banks who issue the cards?

-- Mike Scott
If MY credit card is suspected of being comprimised the bank at it's option may cancel it and require me to obtain a new account and card. THEY DON'T CANCEL EVERY MASTERCARD TO WHICH THEY HAVE ISSUED FOR THAT YEAR!

My DBS receivers can be selectivily shut off if they suspect I have a compromised unit. In the brief days of Divx, a compromised DVD player could have it's Divx feature disabled, but only that unit or others they specifically target.

5C does not implement these selective registration systems over phone connections as the above referenced devices do. Nor is there any regestration of serial number and a detailed enough CRL list to go after specific serial numbers. So how do they avoid punishing legetimate costomers? At least Microsoft did it right with XP. You must register the device and if a problem arises, it can be resolved over the internet talking to the device.

The idea of simply requiring "service" for compromised unit models presents at least two problems as I see it:

1) This is not going to be a secret at all. This forum and many like it will quickly spread report of de-commisioned hardware. Look at what happens here when something goes wrong with DBS systems. The preverbial "nobody else has reported this problem" ain't gonna fly. Consumers are not going to stand for losing a night's, week's, or months use of their equipment because someone else in the country compromised the security . Even if the "fix" is free. People are not going to stand for the slighest hassel this may cause.

2) From the manufactures end this presents a huge expensive maintenance issue. Yeah, I know new keys can be downloaded but by who. Suppose the owner does not have CATV. Surely the manufacture is not going to update a two year old product for free. They can't afford to.

Now based on previous posts's I'm pretty sure your response is to either live with it or do without premium content. That's the manufactures and studios choice. But then the product(s) will fail. I.E. lose - lose for all interested parties.

Where is this specific CRL information available for me and other interested forum members to read up on? You have soley brought this CRL issue to our attention. No other poster I have seen ever brought it up. I'm not saying it's untrue. I would just like to read it for mysel as it seems to be severely flawed and poorly thought out.

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post #28 of 33 Old 11-30-2001, 01:52 PM
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I can attest that the CRL information is true. It's in the DTCP Licensing Agreement. I don't have the link to it right now, but I'll find it when I get home tonight.

I guess this technology isn't sounding so hot anymore, is it? Not that this is anything new. I've been telling people to stay away from this crap for over a year now. :D
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post #29 of 33 Old 11-30-2001, 02:34 PM
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If MY credit card is suspected of being comprimised the bank at it's option may cancel it and require me to obtain a new account and card. THEY DON'T CANCEL EVERY MASTERCARD TO WHICH THEY HAVE ISSUED FOR THAT YEAR!
And the granularity of the CRL is on the level of a single certificate, which is unique per device. It can also contain entries covering blocks of certificates, if a block of certificates was stolen. You cannot break the certificates for all of the devices from a particular company, because all of the certificates that the company will ever use are not sold to them at the same time. This isn't as bad as you're assuming.
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5C does not implement these selective registration systems over phone connections as the above referenced devices do. Nor is there any regestration of serial number and a detailed enough CRL list to go after specific serial numbers. So how do they avoid punishing legetimate costomers? At least Microsoft did it right with XP. You must register the device and if a problem arises, it can be resolved over the internet talking to the device.
The biggest "punishment" of a legitimate customer would be for him to have to make a service call on their equipment. So far as we know, this hasn't happened to anyone yet, and if these keys are properly handled by the DTLA and the manufacturers who buy them for their products, it should almost never happen. Certainly not with the incredible regularity with which people broke and continue to break the security of certain models of DIRECTV boxes. I know people who are receiving DBS, including all of the pay-per-view channels, for free, today, despite DIRECTV's recent massive crack-down.
Quote:
The idea of simply requiring "service" for compromised unit models presents at least two problems as I see it:

1) This is not going to be a secret at all. This forum and many like it will quickly spread report of de-commisioned hardware. Look at what happens here when something goes wrong with DBS systems. The preverbial "nobody else has reported this problem" ain't gonna fly. Consumers are not going to stand for losing a night's, week's, or months use of their equipment because someone else in the country compromised the security . Even if the "fix" is free. People are not going to stand for the slighest hassel this may cause.
Fine--their alternative is to cancel their DBS or cable service and not to watch prerecorded media, because the studios are determined not to transmit their digital media in the clear in home A/V networks, and using a protocol that can be permanently broken with the disclosure of a single set of keys is no better than no security at all. The DeCSS debacle provided that lesson.
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2) From the manufactures end this presents a huge expensive maintenance issue. Yeah, I know new keys can be downloaded but by who. Suppose the owner does not have CATV. Surely the manufacture is not going to update a two year old product for free. They can't afford to.
New keys can't be downloaded over cable or DBS--that would be hideously poor security policy. They'd need to be installed by a field or factory service technician using some sort of special secure physical access. And they'd have to do it for free. Compromise of the keys in a device will never be the customer's fault--it can only be due to carelessness on the part of the manufacture. As I stated before, if they treat these things with the security banks give to customer credit card numbers, this will almost never happen.
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Now based on previous posts's I'm pretty sure your response is to either live with it or do without premium content. That's the manufactures and studios choice. But then the product(s) will fail. I.E. lose - lose for all interested parties.
If that's true, then my prediction is that home theater is dead. If you listen to their rhetoric, the studios are dead set in their detemination to protect their digital IP going forward, and it's perfectly understandable. They can't sell things to people that no one has to buy, and if they continue to transmit their digital IP in the clear in home networks, particularly in digital form, before long, no one will have to buy it. Sure, some people will continue to buy it--I, for one, will--but maybe not enough people to make it a worthwhile business. Lord knows, the quality of their product is strained enough already.
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Where is this specific CRL information available for me and other interested forum members to read up on? You have soley brought this CRL issue to our attention. No other poster I have seen ever brought it up. I'm not saying it's untrue. I would just like to read it for mysel as it seems to be severely flawed and poorly thought out.
Jeez, Glimmie--you just haven't been paying attention. In the past few months of passionate arguing over the copy-protection issue, I and others have mentioned the concept several times. Just do a forum search for the term "CRL or SRM or revocation". But you can find a technical discussion of it here in section 7, starting on page 48.

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post #30 of 33 Old 11-30-2001, 03:11 PM
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I will review the CRL section as I find it most interesting.

But I still maintain it is niave to think:

1) "5C will not be cracked". There is no such thing as a secure lock. The more invasive these schemes come into use, there will be more and more skilled honest people who will work to defeat them, not to steal but to circumvent overly restrictive use.

2) "There will not be any bugs" How many updates have DirecTV and Echostar done that have caused problems. Just search these boards. The idea it hasn't happened yet is simply because until a month ago teher has not even been product availablee to buy on the open market.

3) "Compromised keys will be replaced for free" Well I can see one way this will work. "unless you buy our five year warranty extension plan.....". Other than that it's not going to happen, it never does. The attitude will most likely be "we didn't cause this problem, your fellow customers did. Shoplifting raises prices, not loss of profits".

4) The studios will embrace this up to the point it impacts P&L. There is always a risk versus profit factor. Divx proved that very clearly.
I'm not saying 5C will not happen. By all current reports it is alive and well. Fortunatly from my contacts with studios and equipment manufactures the implementation is very reasonable - examplr image constraint on JVC, though they do acknolowedge all your concerns and no doubt have plans for them if pushed into it. If you wish to see those affiliations I speak of, search my the parent site of my URL.

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