Gefen HD-PVR - records from HDMI or component - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 152 Old 01-06-2008, 03:43 AM - Thread Starter
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http://www.gefen.com/kvm/product.jsp?prod_id=4306
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post #2 of 152 Old 01-06-2008, 10:20 AM
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Wow, that $1000 price tag certainly is a feature I would rather do without...

I wonder if the high price will keep the entertainment industry from killing it or neutering the inputs?

Component video is analog HD, so it does not care about HDCP or "Do Not Copy" flags.

May be worth biting the bullet and getting one while you can.

A 'phile and his money are soon parted...
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post #3 of 152 Old 01-06-2008, 02:45 PM
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Wonder what compression scheme and data rate it uses. An 80Gb hard drive is going to fill up pretty quickly if they use D-VHS quality (20-25Mbs MPEG2), or 15Mbs MPEG4 H264.
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post #4 of 152 Old 01-06-2008, 04:05 PM
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"Instant" recording only?

No timers?

No thanks.
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post #5 of 152 Old 01-06-2008, 07:14 PM
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I notice that the website currently indicates preorders only, which means that this product is still only vaporware right now.

But I'll check back from time to time and see what the status is -- when there are more details, this could be a kind of an interesting toy since the ability to record analog HD component video could come in useful at some point. And the $999 price tag doesn't seem unreasonable for what is both a state of the art and very specialized product.

A couple years ago, how many of us were convinced that recording and compressing HD video on the fly from analog inputs was so expensive that it would never be viable at anything less than 10x this price?
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post #6 of 152 Old 01-07-2008, 08:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas Desmond View Post

A couple years ago, how many of us were convinced that recording and compressing HD video on the fly from analog inputs was so expensive that it would never be viable at anything less than 10x this price?

I think once consumer HDV camcorders appeared, with realtime MPEG2 HD encoding and HD-quality analogue ADCs (which take the analogue CCD output and convert it to digits for processing) on-board, it became clear that HD encoding in realtime at a consumer pricepoint was feasible. Prior to HDV many of us thought it would be expensive and take longer than it did.

Presumably if you merged HDV and D-VHS or Firewire DVR technologies - i.e. put a realtime Component/HDMI input HD MPEG2 encoder in a box that output HD MPEG2 transport streams via Firewire - you'd make a lot of people quite happy?
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post #7 of 152 Old 01-07-2008, 10:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 11001011 View Post

Wow, that $1000 price tag certainly is a feature I would rather do without...

I wonder if the high price will keep the entertainment industry from killing it or neutering the inputs?

Component video is analog HD, so it does not care about HDCP or "Do Not Copy" flags.

May be worth biting the bullet and getting one while you can.

I've been interested in something like this, especially for recording DirecTV content -- and I wouldn't mind forking over a grand since DTV's DVR is $299 and then the monthly fees kick in as well.

The lack of a timer though is a major problem...but I admit I'm interested.
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post #8 of 152 Old 01-07-2008, 12:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sneals2000 View Post

Presumably if you merged HDV and D-VHS or Firewire DVR technologies - i.e. put a realtime Component/HDMI input HD MPEG2 encoder in a box that output HD MPEG2 transport streams via Firewire - you'd make a lot of people quite happy?

The cheapest one that I know of is the $2995 HD-Connect MP2 by Convergent Design (plus the nanoConnect for $395, which converts from HDMI to HD-SDI).
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post #9 of 152 Old 01-07-2008, 03:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erik Garci View Post

The cheapest one that I know of is the $2995 HD-Connect MP2 by Convergent Design (plus the nanoConnect for $395, which converts from HDMI to HD-SDI).

Yep - my point is that similar electronics exist inside even the cheapest HDV camcorders for a much lower price point (and they include a DV tape drive, CCD(s) or CMOS sensors and lenses as well)...
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post #10 of 152 Old 01-08-2008, 10:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rammitinski View Post

"Instant" recording only?

No timers?

No thanks.

I emailed the Gefen folks about the timer and here's what they said:

"HD PVR can be scheduled for recording.
The Hard drive can not be upgradeable.

We are estimating availability within March of 2008."

The timer, then, makes this something I may well pre-order...innnnnteresting.
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post #11 of 152 Old 01-08-2008, 06:22 PM
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I wish it had a component output as well as HDMI. As long as the Mits 73711 keeps going, I don't plan on a new TV.

I went to the web site, but decided not to pre order. They want a credit card right now, and don't offer a discount for a "pre order". I'll wait.

Maybe a power buy or other AVS discount can be negotiated.

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post #12 of 152 Old 01-08-2008, 06:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DM2006RI View Post

I emailed the Gefen folks about the timer and here's what they said:

"HD PVR can be scheduled for recording.
The Hard drive can not be upgradeable.

We are estimating availability within March of 2008."

The timer, then, makes this something I may well pre-order...innnnnteresting.

Do you take this to mean that the first units will have a timer built in?

What is a ball park on 1080i max storage time?

Can this unit output 1080i via firewire to a D-VHS VCR? If not, I question how useful it is.

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post #13 of 152 Old 01-08-2008, 08:19 PM
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Do you take this to mean that the first units will have a timer built in?

I asked specifically if it had a timer function, so I would certainly say yes based on his answer.

The other questions I share with you. 80GB's isn't much space at all, I wonder about the compression and such. Maybe time to fire off another email
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post #14 of 152 Old 01-09-2008, 02:41 PM
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It uses H264 compression as well, according to the email response I received.
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post #15 of 152 Old 01-09-2008, 05:34 PM
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I must be missing something. Where is the market for this thing? I have the D*** & E*** DVR's which seem to do what this does. Now if this unit would output HD via firewire then I could record it to D-VHS when I need to archive a HD program.

What am I missing?

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post #16 of 152 Old 01-09-2008, 05:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikey mo View Post

I must be missing something. Where is the market for this thing? I have the D*** & E*** DVR's which seem to do what this does. Now if this unit would output HD via firewire then I could record it to D-VHS when I need to archive a HD program.

What am I missing?

Very niche market - but there are gamers with XBox 360s and PS3s who want to record their gaming sessions... (There are occasional posts every couple of months asking for solutions for this problem. Not a massive market though)
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post #17 of 152 Old 01-09-2008, 05:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DM2006RI View Post

It uses H264 compression as well, according to the email response I received.

Suspect that means around 8-18Mbs H264 rather than 18-25Mbs MPEG2 for a decent quality recording - though higher rates may be needed to avoid further concatenation artefacts.

80Gb would provide around 7 hours at 25Mbs MPEG2, rising to around 22 hours at 8Mbs H264. Not exactly generous...
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post #18 of 152 Old 01-10-2008, 08:26 AM
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rising to around 22 hours at 8Mbs H264. Not exactly generous...

I agree. Doesn't make much sense.
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post #19 of 152 Old 01-22-2008, 07:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikey mo View Post

I wish it had a component output as well as HDMI. As long as the Mits 73711 keeps going, I don't plan on a new TV.

I'm in the same boat. I have an RCA Scenium, which is nearly 5 years old. Unsurprisingly, it lacks an HDMI input. Thus I won't be buying the Gefen box, or any other peripheral that requires HDMI, as long as my old RCA is still my primary HDTV.
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post #20 of 152 Old 01-30-2008, 09:35 AM
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I must be missing something. Where is the market for this thing? I have the D*** & E*** DVR's which seem to do what this does. Now if this unit would output HD via firewire then I could record it to D-VHS when I need to archive a HD program.

What am I missing?

Presumably you could export programming via an SD-HC card to your PC and then do what you want with it.

I'm interested still in this unit but will wait and see how it functions before ordering one. Those who are interested should look at Google Checkout vendors, where you can find it under $799 shipped from a couple of different retailers (one of which gets decent reviews). Better deal than ordering direct from Gefen.
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post #21 of 152 Old 01-30-2008, 04:47 PM
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I am pretty sure it will only copy NON-HDCP sources, I herd it on "The HT Guys" show

but if that is the case there are some devices that apply HDCP even when there isnt any like some HDMI receivers with HDCP

if not and this will "rip" the HDCP of of the video stream then why not just pass it through the device and use it to remove HDCP so you can use something like the "black magic" HDMI capture card and get it in high quality

I want the retro skin back please
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post #22 of 152 Old 01-30-2008, 06:02 PM
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I am pretty sure it will only copy NON-HDCP sources, I herd it on "The HT Guys" show

I'll check it out. Is component analog HD affected by HDCP too or is it only limited to HDMI/DVI outputs? (i.e. an OTA DVR or a Directv receiver with component analog HD outputs?).

I only ask as someone mentioned above recording component/analog HD would not be affected by HDCP. That would be the main reason I'd be interested in the unit.
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post #23 of 152 Old 01-30-2008, 09:31 PM
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HDCP is only for Digital connections ONLY

I want the retro skin back please
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post #24 of 152 Old 01-31-2008, 05:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leftkidney View Post

HDCP is only for Digital connections ONLY

Thanks for the clarification
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post #25 of 152 Old 01-31-2008, 04:29 PM
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If you want to record from components just wait for the new Hauppauge card.

"How come you haven't changed anything?"-Omar
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post #26 of 152 Old 02-09-2008, 06:44 AM
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Apparently the Gefen HD PVR is available now. Some stores have it listed in stock, and at least one user is reporting his experience on the Gefen forum.
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post #27 of 152 Old 02-09-2008, 07:26 PM
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From Gefen's forums:
"Digital content and HDCP protected data cannot be exported"

While this is a big limitation, I would still be interested in it if audio for the component input was not limited to 2 ch analog.
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post #28 of 152 Old 02-09-2008, 09:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hdtvme View Post

From Gefen's forums:
"Digital content and HDCP protected data cannot be exported"

It makes sense that HDCP-encrypted video cannot be exported, since it is not supposed to be recorded at all in the first place (according to the official HDCP rules).

Does it also mean that recordings of non-HDCP HDMI signals cannot be exported? If that's the case, that would be an absurd limitation, since the PVR would be imposing restrictions on video that had no restrictions to begin with.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hdtvme View Post

While this is a big limitation, I would still be interested in it if audio for the component input was not limited to 2 ch analog.

Looking at the picture of the connectors, the COMPONENT INPUT section includes L and R audio inputs, but no SPDIF input (unless one can be borrowed from the HDMI inputs).
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post #29 of 152 Old 02-10-2008, 05:53 PM
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Does it also mean that recordings of non-HDCP HDMI signals cannot be exported? If that's the case, that would be an absurd limitation, since the PVR would be imposing restrictions on video that had no restrictions to begin with.

I took a gamble and ordered one from Valleyseek, and it arrived on Friday. To make it short I will be calling Gefen tech support tomorrow, because what you describe is exactly what the problem is: nothing via HDMI or component can be exported. I have a public access show on my DVR that I tried to export to an SD card via component cables and it wouldn't even allow THAT to be exported!

Unless I get some answers from Gefen about a firmware fix I would not recommend this unit at all. If you can't export analog HD programs (even without HDCP) it's basically useless with the tiny hard drive. Too bad because the PQ is quite good recording off DirecTV. Alas if I can't export programs via component (analog HD) I have no use for this unit.
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post #30 of 152 Old 02-10-2008, 07:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DM2006RI View Post

To make it short I will be calling Gefen tech support tomorrow

I'd like to know what they tell you. I hope they can fix it.

By the way, what are the bitrates that you can choose?
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