Dish DTVPal DVR (ex-Echostar TR-50) Official Speculation and Order Info Thread - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 3326 Old 01-14-2008, 11:28 PM
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Originally Posted by fallingwater View Post

Sony's DHG recorders have an advanced TVGOS much better than any other version.

Not quite. They have the 8th generation guide. The 9th, which some Panasonic & Toshiba recorders and various TV's have, is considerably improved. The way it's integrated in the Panny recorders (EH55V & EH75V), it even works with D* & E* satellite.
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post #92 of 3326 Old 01-14-2008, 11:43 PM
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Originally Posted by ftaok View Post

As for the TR-50, word is that it has TVGOS service. I suspect that it can get the data via analog and/or digital.

Dish already has an existing agreement with TV Guide to supply their guide data for their service and tuner guides. If you look at the pictures near the beginning of this thread of the Dish satellite guide, you will see the little, red "TV Guide" logo up in the corner. It is the same logo that TVGOS uses. It started showing up on my Dish guide well over a year ago, maybe even more than two (I never really paid that close attention). This is probably when they initially started partnering with them.

And since they're saying that the guide data for the TR-50 will come from CBS and PBS, just as all TVGOS data does now, I think it's a good bet to assume it's the same data. The guide interface is just closer in design to Dish's standard satellite guides.
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post #93 of 3326 Old 01-15-2008, 05:24 AM
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Originally Posted by biker19 View Post

^ exactly. It won't sell if it's above $300. The Philips DVDr with a 160GB HDD is $298. This units swaps a drive for a second tuner - should be in the same ball park in price.

The Sony DHG250 is going for $500 and up on EBay, and those are all used. The Philips you're talking about is not a high def recorder.

Let's put things in a more realistic perspective - the Tivo 3 with 250GB sells for $300 and if you throw in a three-year guide it comes to $600 for 3 years of use. TIVO still hasn't added support for ESATA on that unit - though they still say it's coming. The TR-50 has USB external drives supported out of the box.

Considering this unit has EPG via OTA, then anything below $500 is a bargain and I would expect a price closer to $600. At $700 I'd still bite, but not more than that.

Why is there NO perfect equipment, only compromises?
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post #94 of 3326 Old 01-15-2008, 06:29 AM
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Well, you a two other people might do $700. That's WAY too much to dish out for an electronic gadget for most people. Less than 300 would sell much better. They'll probably introduce it at some ridiculous price, to snag the high-enders, then when it stops selling, they'll drop it to something more sane.

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post #95 of 3326 Old 01-15-2008, 06:42 AM
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Originally Posted by tom.green@iwon.com View Post

Well, you a two other people might do $700. That's WAY too much to dish out for an electronic gadget for most people. Less than 300 would sell much better. They'll probably introduce it at some ridiculous price, to snag the high-enders, then when it stops selling, they'll drop it to something more sane.

Let me clarify - when I say $700 I mean $700 MSRP. I would expect to pay no more than $599. Maybe too rich for some people, but for a guy that nearly plunked down $700 for a lifetime deal for a Tivo 3, it's definitely the product for me.

If TIVO didn't make the "lifetime subscription" based on the hardware, I'd have jumped at it. But if the TIVO3 ever broke and I needed to buy another one, I would have to pay the subscription fee again. That was too risky for me, considering the unit could break after a year and cost a couple hundred to get fixed.

Why is there NO perfect equipment, only compromises?
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post #96 of 3326 Old 01-15-2008, 06:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tom.green@iwon.com View Post

Well, you a two other people might do $700. That's WAY too much to dish out for an electronic gadget for most people. Less than 300 would sell much better. They'll probably introduce it at some ridiculous price, to snag the high-enders, then when it stops selling, they'll drop it to something more sane.

I'll jump in as one of the other "two" insane people who would buy it at that price. CD players - (not recorders for those that were still in diapers at that time) - were still selling for more than $500 back in 1990. This is 8 years after the first consumer player was introduced

On another note - seems like more than a few million people are willing to fork over a couple hundred bucks for something called an IPOD. A device that stores and plays back compressed music Now that is insane.

JD
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post #97 of 3326 Old 01-15-2008, 06:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tom.green@iwon.com View Post

Well, you a two other people might do $700. That's WAY too much to dish out for an electronic gadget for most people. Less than 300 would sell much better. They'll probably introduce it at some ridiculous price, to snag the high-enders, then when it stops selling, they'll drop it to something more sane.

Let me clarify - when I say $700 I mean $700 MSRP. I would expect to pay no more than $599. Maybe too rich for some people, but for a guy that nearly plunked down $700 for a lifetime deal for a Tivo 3, it's definitely the product for me.

If TIVO didn't make the "lifetime subscription" based on the hardware, I'd have jumped at it. But if the TIVO3 ever broke and I needed to buy another one, I would have to pay the subscription fee again. That was too risky for me, considering the unit could break after a year and cost a couple hundred to get fixed.

Why is there NO perfect equipment, only compromises?
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post #98 of 3326 Old 01-15-2008, 10:14 AM
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Sorry, that would be too much to pay just for the convenience of recording HD. Come to think of it....what will we do when they make the transition in 2009? Will we have to buy an adapter to convert to analog and record something? Hmmm...

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post #99 of 3326 Old 01-15-2008, 11:23 AM
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Originally Posted by SimpleTheater View Post

Let's put things in a more realistic perspective - the Tivo 3 with 250GB sells for $300 and if you throw in a three-year guide it comes to $600 for 3 years of use. TIVO still hasn't added support for ESATA on that unit - though they still say it's coming. The TR-50 has USB external drives supported out of the box.

Considering this unit has EPG via OTA, then anything below $500 is a bargain and I would expect a price closer to $600. At $700 I'd still bite, but not more than that.

HDTiVo is under $300, TiVo S3 is around $400 after $200 rebate. Both have eSata external storage, but E*'s method of providing external storage, while slower, is more useful!

Until next month TiVo is offering a $399 Lifetime Service option but only to existing customers.
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post #100 of 3326 Old 01-15-2008, 11:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Rammitinski View Post

(DHG's) have the 8th generation guide. The 9th, which some Panasonic & Toshiba recorders and various TV's have, is considerably improved. The way it's integrated in the Panny recorders (EH55V & EH75V), it even works with D* & E* satellite.

Is #9 functionally better than #8 or does it just have more comprehensive listings. #8 is way better than earlier TVGOS versions.
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post #101 of 3326 Old 01-15-2008, 11:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Rammitinski View Post

the guide data for the TR-50 will come from CBS and PBS, just as all TVGOS data does now...

Here, the host channel seems to always be one of two commercial stations, not PBS. Does the time setting have to come from the host channel or can it come from PBS?
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post #102 of 3326 Old 01-15-2008, 11:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fallingwater View Post

Until next month TiVo is offering a $399 Lifetime Service option but only to existing customers.

But an existing customer can buy the package for someone else as a gift, at least that's what my neighbor told me. But when I called TIVO they said the lifetime service is specific to that piece of hardware, not the individual - so they won't switch your service from one product to another. That was the deal breaker for me - otherwise I'd have gotten the Tivo for $700 and wouldn't be on this board now.

Why is there NO perfect equipment, only compromises?
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post #103 of 3326 Old 01-15-2008, 12:12 PM
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TiVo has confusing and overly complicated pricing schemes for its service, especially its Lifetime Service special promos.

Lifetime Service stays with a TiVo box. (It's the only service that can't be transferred to another TiVo.) eBay is a place to look for competitive deals for TiVos with Lifetime Service.
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post #104 of 3326 Old 01-15-2008, 12:22 PM
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Originally Posted by fallingwater View Post

TiVo has confusing and overly complicated pricing schemes for its service, especially its Lifetime Service special promos.

Lifetime Service stays with a TiVo box. (It's the only service that can't be transferred to another TiVo.) eBay is a place to look for competitive deals for TiVos with Lifetime Service.

A lifetime service contract on a piece of hardware that will become obsolete sounds like a lawyers dream.
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post #105 of 3326 Old 01-15-2008, 12:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Rammitinski View Post

If you look at the pictures near the beginning of this thread of the Dish satellite guide, you will see the little, red "TV Guide" logo up in the corner. It is the same logo that TVGOS uses. It started showing up on my Dish guide well over a year ago, maybe even more than two (I never really paid that close attention).

Apparently TiVo switched to Gemstar from Tribune Media Services for guide data and also has had the "TV Guide" logo in the corner of its uniquely formatted EPG for awhile now.

http://www.tvguideonscreen.com/support/
http://www.tribunemediaentertainment...2itonair.shtml
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post #106 of 3326 Old 01-15-2008, 12:56 PM
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Originally Posted by jdskycaster View Post

A lifetime service contract on a piece of hardware that will become obsolete sounds like a lawyers dream.

The oldest S1 TiVos do no less than they ever did, and both S2's and hi-def models have the same feature sets.

The regular price for TiVo Service is $12.95 monthly with a one year commitment. Multiple TiVos on the same account or with a longer term commitment receive lower prices. So at either $399 for their current promo deal, or $299 for the old Lifetime deal, there are break points to consider.

TiVo generally charges only $150 for o/o/warranty repairs. They'll even replace failed HDD's when a TiVo has been opened o/o/warranty, but will only replace with a HDD of the original size. Users can easily swap out HDD's of any size.
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post #107 of 3326 Old 01-15-2008, 12:59 PM - Thread Starter
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Virtually all STBs and DVRs now include the TVGuide logo.

You can't provide a program guide without licensing the Gemstar patents, and you can't license the Gemstar patents unless you agree to include the TVGuide logo in your guide. Hence, all program guides now include that logo [or will soon], regardless of where they get their program information. TiVo and DirecTV get their guide information from Tribune Media Services.
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post #108 of 3326 Old 01-15-2008, 01:17 PM
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Thanks for the update. I thought that TiVo's source was TMS, but also thought that TiVo originally created its uniquely formatted 'Live' Guide to avoid paying royalties to Gemstar.
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post #109 of 3326 Old 01-15-2008, 01:31 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by fallingwater View Post

Thanks for the update. I thought that TiVo's source was TMS, but also thought that TiVo originally created its uniquely formatted 'Live' Guide to avoid paying royalties to Gemstar.

Perhaps that was TiVo's intent, but Gemstar filed suit against TiVo in 2000, citing infringement of their guide patents. TiVo ultimately agreed to license the patents and add the TVGuide branding in 2003.
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post #110 of 3326 Old 01-15-2008, 02:41 PM
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Originally Posted by fallingwater View Post

The oldest S1 TiVos do no less than they ever did, and both S2's and hi-def models have the same feature sets.

As do my first generation Echo SD DVR's and 2nd gen SD DVR's but I would be the first to admit that they are definitely outdated and soon to be obsolete in a few months. Echo continues to update the software on them (Gen 2's) so they have some new features but who cares - they are SD. HD is where it is currently at. I can upgrade through Dish for 2 new HD DVR's with service for about $149.00. That is for 2. How much is the new Tivo HD DVR with unlimited lifetime service that you may or may not actually use?

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Originally Posted by fallingwater View Post

The regular price for TiVo Service is $12.95 monthly with a one year commitment. Multiple TiVos on the same account or with a longer term commitment receive lower prices. So at either $399 for their current promo deal, or $299 for the old Lifetime deal, there are break points to consider.

I have owned all of them for at least 4 - 6 years and paid no more than $90 for anyone of them. Since I own them I do not pay any monthly DVR fees (Echo now charges a DVR fee). That cannot be matched by any Tivo owner including S1's - lifetime or not. There are a couple of times over the past 3 years I have thought about switching back to DirectTV (I was a subscriber for 9 years previously) but have declined specifically because of Tivo's monthly charges and upfront costs. I think signing on with Tivo was one of the worst mistakes DirecTV could have made.


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Originally Posted by fallingwater View Post

TiVo generally charges only $150 for o/o/warranty repairs. They'll even replace failed HDD's when a TiVo has been opened o/o/warranty, but will only replace with a HDD of the original size. Users can easily swap out HDD's of any size.

I call Dish, they send me a replacement DVR, I box up the defective unit and send it back postage prepaid.
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post #111 of 3326 Old 01-15-2008, 10:02 PM
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The definition of "Life Time Service" of anything electronic is very iffy/subjective. Once the digital transition is complete and Internet connected STBs are the norm I see trouble in Tivo's business model. The way forward will be free, add based, guide info - something this unit seems to be pointing towards.
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post #112 of 3326 Old 01-15-2008, 10:53 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by jdskycaster View Post

There are a couple of times over the past 3 years I have thought about switching back to DirectTV (I was a subscriber for 9 years previously) but have declined specifically because of Tivo's monthly charges and upfront costs. I think signing on with Tivo was one of the worst mistakes DirecTV could have made.

How so?

The upfront costs and fees were DirecTV's, not TiVos. The DVR fee for the DirecTiVos was $4.99/mo. DirecTV was always responsible for the hardware and monthly fees. DirecTV paid TiVo ~$1/mo per subscriber with at least one DirecTivo, plus the cost to maintain the software; anything beyond that went toward DirecTV's bottom line.

On DirecTV, DVR costs have gone up from $4.99/mo to $5.99/mo since they moved to DVR software from NDS.

The actual cost of the Dish vs. DirecTV hardware has always been pretty comparable (within ~$50). Dish and DirecTV simply choose to spend their subscriber acquisition budgets in different ways. Dish Network spends far more per customer on hardware subsidies, while DirecTV spends far more on advertising.

Anyway, back to the topic at hand.
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post #113 of 3326 Old 01-16-2008, 08:54 AM
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Originally Posted by nextoo View Post

Could be.

But if the cnet video is an accurate depiction of the user interface I can, as a user of both TVGOS and a VIP722, attest to the fact that it is not TVGOS. It is the same user interface as the VIP722.

cnet video here

Thx for the link to the video, did I also see a Optical audio out at the far right?

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post #114 of 3326 Old 01-16-2008, 10:31 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by hyghwayman View Post

Thx for the link to the video, did I also see a Optical audio out at the far right?

There is high-resolution picture linked in the first post that shows all the outputs.

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Originally Posted by nextoo View Post

But if the cnet video is an accurate depiction of the user interface I can, as a user of both TVGOS and a VIP722, attest to the fact that it is not TVGOS. It is the same user interface as the VIP722.

My understanding is that Echostar worked with Gemstar to modify their software so it could accept the information offered by TVGuide.
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post #115 of 3326 Old 01-16-2008, 12:10 PM
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I don't really care that much about what it "looks like". I'm more concerned about how what it does "looks like". And my hopes are that it will look pretty good.

exactly. the damn thing isnt even out yet and people are whining about its looks. the only thing that matters about this box is that it works and is expandable and is without any hidden fees.
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post #116 of 3326 Old 01-16-2008, 12:24 PM
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what does tivo have to do with the topic of this thread? NOTHING. so how about we start talking about the original topic and leave tivo to those who have paid for it or want it on other threads?
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post #117 of 3326 Old 01-16-2008, 03:05 PM
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Originally Posted by digital_b_avs View Post

what does tivo have to do with the topic of this thread? NOTHING. so how about we start talking about the original topic and leave tivo to those who have paid for it or want it on other threads?

Back to back posts just to b!tch? Priceless. It appears you have read most of this thread so you should be aware that everything currently known about this product has been posted and we are now well into the speculation phase. I am sure once more details are released this thread will continue on it's way. Hang tight.
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post #118 of 3326 Old 01-16-2008, 04:03 PM
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I don't mean to sound haughty or anything, but -

That's exactly what I plan on doing. Hanging tight - until some more concrete news about it comes out. I can't stand reading through pages of baseless speculation. And then you get stupid, small-minded people actually arguing over things that aren't even known yet. It reminds me of just turning on the TV during the year-long lead-ups to the O.J. and M.J. trials. I don't think there was ever such an extended period as that where I watched TV in general so little. Even just sittin' there and pickin' my rear end was more productive and worthwhile to me.

That happens here on occasion, and I have learned to just bypass these threads. That's why I have no plans to participate or read here anymore until either the unit itself, or at least some real news or early reviews about it comes out. When that happens I'm sure I'll get wind of it right away on the more productive, useful threads.
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post #119 of 3326 Old 01-16-2008, 04:35 PM - Thread Starter
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I will edit the first post with all the latest news, so that is the only post you have to check for the forseeable future.
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post #120 of 3326 Old 01-16-2008, 11:24 PM
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My recollection was Tivo and echostar were sued and as part of the settlement they added the tvguide logo
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