Dish DTVPal DVR (ex-Echostar TR-50) Official Speculation and Order Info Thread - Page 7 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #181 of 3326 Old 02-03-2008, 12:21 PM
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Originally Posted by sregener View Post

Finally, commercials were eating a large part of my TV time. With a DVR, I could sit down at 8:15 and start watching a program that started at 8, skip all the commercials, and end at about the same time as those who watched it live.

And this is leading to pop-up commercials during the show and more intrusive advertising. How do you like animated pop-ups during your show? TiVo is to blame for them.

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Originally Posted by sregener View Post

And, of course, all of this ignores the fact that VCR picture quality is horrible compared to a DVR. Especially when you start recording HD.

VCR quality was just as good as OTA in the 80's. The quality of the tape was not worse than what was broadcast.

If they would give us a DVD-RW or S-VHS with ATSC tuner it would be as good as TiVo and there would be no monthly fee.

Many people want a simple way to record ATSC television shows while at work or away from home. We want a simple recorder and no fees. TiVo is trying to shove their monthly service fee down the throat of America by not offering a cheap alternative product to do basic recording.
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post #182 of 3326 Old 02-03-2008, 12:30 PM
 
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Originally Posted by jmonier View Post

IF the TR-40 converts digital TVGOS to analog VBI TVGOS then it should provide TVGOS functionality To ANY analog TVGOS product.

Again, I think you missed his point, but I'll let him clarify it for you.
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post #183 of 3326 Old 02-03-2008, 12:32 PM
 
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Originally Posted by doogiehowser View Post

And this is leading to pop-up commercials during the show and more intrusive advertising. How do you like animated pop-ups during your show? TiVo is to blame for them.

Not at all. The American television viewer, who will watch them and will continue to watch television programs that have them, would be responsible for them.

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Originally Posted by doogiehowser View Post

Many people want a simple way to record ATSC television shows while at work or away from home. We want a simple recorder and no fees.

However, consumers in general aren't willing to pay enough for it to provide sufficient incentive for CE manufacturers to offer such products.
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post #184 of 3326 Old 02-03-2008, 01:21 PM
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Originally Posted by bicker1 View Post

However, consumers in general aren't willing to pay enough for it to provide sufficient incentive for CE manufacturers to offer such products.

The the TR-50, which is what I thought this thread was about, will never be offered...is that what you are saying...even though it was announced as CES with a Summer time frame?

What about the Sony and LG HD DVR's that were released a few years ago? Why were they offered at all?

Edit: Why did I even reply? Look at the poster's name "bicker1" - quibble: argue over petty things; "Let's not quibble over pennies". I guess I stepped right into that

At no point in your rambling, incoherent post were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this forum is now dumber for having read it.

My Little Theater
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post #185 of 3326 Old 02-03-2008, 01:48 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by sivartk View Post

The the TR-50, which is what I thought this thread was about, will never be offered...is that what you are saying...even though it was announced as CES with a Summer time frame?

You might want to read my previous post. Echostar has several advantages over other CE manufacturers, the most obvious being that they already have high-quality DVR software whose development is funded by Dish Network subscribers. Furthermore, Echostar already has the infrastructure in place to provide Internet-delivered pay VOD -- namely PPV-- to everyone with the box, which gives them with another source of revenue beyond the initial sale.

Echostar appears to have a closer relationship with Gemstar than most companies, which came out of their $250 million (total) patent settlement. They are the first company to ever integrate the Gemstar TVGOS guide data with their own DVR software. Since they are not using the Gemstar TVGoS software, this may reduce the licensing fees they have to pay. In fact, they may not have to pay to use it at all:

Quote:


Gemstar-TV Guide International, Inc. (Nasdaq: GMST) and EchoStar Communications Corporation (NasdaqISH) today announced a long-term non-exclusive patent license and distribution agreement. The transaction includes a one-time payment by EchoStar of $190 million in cash for EchoStar to utilize Gemstar-TV Guide's intellectual property and technology as well as the TV Guide brand on its interactive program guides (IPGs). (March, 2004)

Dish Network is also the only company to publicly take on the TiVo patents. Comcast, Cox, and DirecTV have all reached licensing or non-litigation agreements with TiVo.

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Originally Posted by sivartk View Post

What about the Sony and LG HD DVR's that were released a few years ago? Why were they offered at all?

At the time, those companies thought they could make money on a DVR. They were wrong. Both companies vastly underestimated the support costs associated with DVRs, and overestimated the demand of a single-tuner HDTV DVR at those price points. Recall that those products were introduced at $799 to $999.
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post #186 of 3326 Old 02-03-2008, 02:54 PM
 
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Originally Posted by sivartk View Post

The the TR-50, which is what I thought this thread was about, will never be offered...is that what you are saying...

Nope. Haven't even THOUGHT about saying that.

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Originally Posted by sivartk View Post

What about the Sony and LG HD DVR's that were released a few years ago?

Gone aren't they? Have you considered why?
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post #187 of 3326 Old 02-03-2008, 02:56 PM
 
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Originally Posted by bfdtv View Post

You might want to read my previous post. Echostar has several advantages over other CE manufacturers, the most obvious being that they already have high-quality DVR software whose development is funded by Dish Network subscribers. Furthermore, Echostar already has the infrastructure in place to provide Internet-delivered pay VOD -- namely PPV-- to everyone with the box, which gives them with another source of revenue beyond the initial sale.

Indeed, and we still don't know whether or not their box will have any advertising in the menus on their production-run boxes.
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post #188 of 3326 Old 02-03-2008, 03:07 PM
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Originally Posted by bicker1 View Post

Gone aren't they? Have you considered why?

Yeah! It's a $#@*%!& conspiracy, that's why!
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post #189 of 3326 Old 02-03-2008, 03:33 PM
 
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Hehe.... must be!
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post #190 of 3326 Old 02-03-2008, 05:15 PM
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Originally Posted by doogiehowser View Post

And this is leading to pop-up commercials during the show and more intrusive advertising. How do you like animated pop-ups during your show? TiVo is to blame for them.



VCR quality was just as good as OTA in the 80's. The quality of the tape was not worse than what was broadcast.

If they would give us a DVD-RW or S-VHS with ATSC tuner it would be as good as TiVo and there would be no monthly fee.

Many people want a simple way to record ATSC television shows while at work or away from home. We want a simple recorder and no fees. TiVo is trying to shove their monthly service fee down the throat of America by not offering a cheap alternative product to do basic recording.

I have been watching and recording HD TV shows since 2003. I run 3 LG LST-3410A HD DVR's every night for 3 hours minimum. i also use the latest COMCAST HD DVR. This lets me record 5 HD shows at the same time. In case I have more channels I need to record in the same time slot, I have a MyHD 350 HD DVR card in my computer. I also have 2 SVHS machines ready in case something needs to record that tI don't expect. All the HD DVR's use DVI and HDMI. I'm not sure why you think there ar no good solutions.

For those who don't know....The 3410A was taken off the market for 2 reasons

1. Its CC did not comply with new Federal standards,
2. Its tuner received many of the scrambled programming available on cable.

If you see one on EBAY and buy it, you will understand what I am saying. That is why I have 3.

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post #191 of 3326 Old 02-04-2008, 06:11 AM
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Originally Posted by doogiehowser View Post

If they would give us a DVD-RW or S-VHS with ATSC tuner it would be as good as TiVo and there would be no monthly fee.

Many people want a simple way to record ATSC television shows while at work or away from home. We want a simple recorder and no fees. TiVo is trying to shove their monthly service fee down the throat of America by not offering a cheap alternative product to do basic recording.

Who is 'they'? In case you didn't know, there are many companies that are making/selling the device that you are talking about. Just to list a couple.

LG 787 - DVD-Recorder with ATSC tuner
LG 797 - DVD-Recorder/VHS with ATSC tuner
Philips 35something - DVD-Recorder/HDD PVR with ATSC tuner
Panny has several models with ATSC
Toshiba has several models with ATSC

As you can see, there are many devices to choose from. Depending on the feature set, the price ranges from $200 to $350 at retail. NOTE - none of these devices record in full HD. They all downrez the HD feed to SD-480i.

The best hope for recording ATSC HD is probably the TR-50 described in this thread. We'll see what develops in the next couple of months.

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post #192 of 3326 Old 02-04-2008, 09:32 AM
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Just for the record, only the Philips DVDR3575H/37
and the Magnavox H2080MW8 have all three features;
Record to HDD
Record to DVD
ATSC Tuner.
(In the US - In Europe there are many such recorders)
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post #193 of 3326 Old 02-04-2008, 11:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Chuck44 View Post

Just for the record, only the Philips DVDR3575H/37
and the Magnavox H2080MW8 have all three features;
Record to HDD
Record to DVD
ATSC Tuner.
(In the US - In Europe there are many such recorders)

There's also the under-$200., Polaroid DRA-01601A in the US.
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post #194 of 3326 Old 02-06-2008, 08:06 PM
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So, with the TiVO judgement against Dish and with DTV owning Dish, I guess their DVR's will all now be based on the replay patents they just acquired as outlined in this article?

http://blogs.barrons.co/techtraderda...d=yahoobarrons

But overturned the Hardware infringements? Interesting. So, the hardware (like this Tr-50) do not infringe but the SOFTWARE to run on them, does? I guess they replay software patents will offset this "minor" roadblock. Looks like Dish may have to re-program the interface to use the replay interface-software.
http://money.cnn.com/2008/01/31/news...ce=yahoo_quote

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post #195 of 3326 Old 02-06-2008, 08:23 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by ndabunka View Post

So, with the TiVO judgement against Dish and with DTV owning Dish, I guess their DVR's will all now be based on the replay patents they just acquired as outlined in this article?

http://blogs.barrons.co/techtraderda...d=yahoobarrons

But overturned the Hardware infringements? Interesting. So, the hardware (like this Tr-50) do not infringe but the SOFTWARE to run on them, does? I guess they replay software patents will offset this "minor" roadblock. Looks like Dish may have to re-program the interface to use the replay interface-software.
http://money.cnn.com/2008/01/31/news...ce=yahoo_quote

DirecTV does not own Dish Network. Dish Network cannot use the ReplayTV patents.

We have a separate infringement thread for discussion of the TiVo vs. Echostar litigation.
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post #196 of 3326 Old 02-06-2008, 08:50 PM
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Thanks, Sorry for the off-topic cross reference. I will review that thread.

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post #197 of 3326 Old 02-12-2008, 03:03 PM
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My question is will this TR-50 have a "To Go" functionality, kind of like TiVoToGo. Will I be able to download any recorded shows to my PC? Will I be able to upload shows back to the device?
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post #198 of 3326 Old 02-12-2008, 04:30 PM
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USB external drive expansion is supported out of the box.

from: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...7#post12724177

If you save to a USB drive, then you can take the drive and attach it to another computer, I'm assuming.
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post #199 of 3326 Old 02-12-2008, 08:40 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by DrBri99 View Post

from: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...7#post12724177

If you save to a USB drive, then you can take the drive and attach it to another computer, I'm assuming.

No. The recordings are encrypted. They cannot be read by a computer.

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Originally Posted by vasilemj View Post

My question is will this TR-50 have a "To Go" functionality, kind of like TiVoToGo. Will I be able to download any recorded shows to my PC? Will I be able to upload shows back to the device?

No.

Of course, Dish could add that functionality with a future release. But they have not announced that capability.
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post #200 of 3326 Old 02-14-2008, 02:55 PM
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sweet finally some OTA HD love. keeping my figures crossed that it is a reasonable price, i.e couple hundred bucks at most.
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post #201 of 3326 Old 02-15-2008, 02:03 AM
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More like 500 bucks retail at least, I'm guessing.
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post #202 of 3326 Old 02-15-2008, 05:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Rammitinski View Post

More like 500 bucks retail at least, I'm guessing.

I'd bet even that guess is optimistic.
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post #203 of 3326 Old 02-15-2008, 07:35 AM
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More like 500 bucks retail at least, I'm guessing.

To cover legal costs? I am (optimistically) guessing $229.99, and thinking the market might turnout to be larger than expected.
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post #204 of 3326 Old 02-15-2008, 08:03 AM
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Originally Posted by fru1 View Post

To cover legal costs? I am (optimistically) guessing $229.99, and thinking the market might turnout to be larger than expected.

I think this number is closer to correct. They still haven't figured out how big of a hard drive to include. My guess is that it will be relatively small (320GB?). If so, they can keep the cost down, and you can still add an external drive if you want more storage.

As a comparison, their ViP612 single-TV DVR with two sat tuners and one OTA is selling for $369 right now.

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post #205 of 3326 Old 02-15-2008, 09:57 AM
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$229.99? With more than one tuner? And no monthly fee or 2-year contract? Wishful thinking. Not retail, that's for sure. Are you thinking it will be cheaper because it's OTA-only? That won't make much of a difference, if any. If anything, they're likely to charge MORE because your not tied to them as a provider. Not less. That's the way it's always worked.

If it costs anywhere near that cheap, it's gonna be the worst Chinese junk imaginable, just like the lower priced Funai-made SD HDD/DVD recorders out there now, that miss recordings, and whose digital tuners are always losing channels, and, other than maybe the Polaroid, which is a total POS otherwise, have subpar PQ.

Heck - just a single-tunered, up to 6 or 8 hr. DVD recorder from Panasonic costs over $200.00 - and they don't have to pay Gemstar anything these days. And, like the HDD/DVD models, those things (and all of the others) are full of all kinds of bugs now that they're all MIC.

The ONLY reason that the Sony DHG-HDD500 dropped down to $250.00 at Tweeter was because of the impending analog cutoff and the guide (or even the manual timing) wouldn't work anymore. And most of the ones that were sold were in re-taped boxes. So don't go by that.

We'll see. If it actually is that cheap, you'll be lucky it lasts more than 6 months, and I wouldn't even waste my money on it.
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post #206 of 3326 Old 02-15-2008, 10:10 AM
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Hate to pour cold water on this but if this HD DVR only can rcord OTA, it will never sell in enough quantity to makea dent. Over 90% of americans watch TV via cable or satellite. Getting OTA digital stable enough to record from can be a real chore. I am quite familiar with setting up TV antenna systems and AV setups. When you introduce amplifiers, the digital ATSC tuners have a terrible time sorting noise from signal. The result is missed recordings and angry owners. They made a big mistake. Should have included a QAM 256 tuner. Me, I will stick with my LG LST-3410A tners and my Motorola 2 tuner 8300 that I rent from Comcast.

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post #207 of 3326 Old 02-15-2008, 10:30 AM
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well in a year a bunch of people will be forced to convert to digital OTA. I would since that since the gov is giving away convert box coupons that some people are still watching tv with rabbit ears.

I spent a lot of time get a stable OTA ATSC signal
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post #208 of 3326 Old 02-15-2008, 10:54 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bradtothebone View Post

As a comparison, their ViP612 single-TV DVR with two sat tuners and one OTA is selling for $369 right now.

You cannot compare the "direct" price of satellite DVRs, which are subsidized.

Last quarter, Dish Network said every ViP622 DVR cost them $400 to build. DirecTV recently told analysts that its $299 HR20 DVR cost them $450 to build. They said the build cost of their new HR21 DVR (without OTA tuners) would be down to $250 by April.

The $369 price for the ViP612 almost certainly does not include a profit margin. It may or may not include the full cost of hardware and [direct, non-retail] distribution.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rammitinski View Post

$229.99? With more than one tuner? And no monthly fee or 2-year contract? Wishful thinking. Not retail, that's for sure. Are you thinking it will be cheaper because it's OTA-only? That won't make much of a difference, if any. If anything, they're likely to charge MORE because your not tied to them as a provider. Not less. That's the way it's always worked.

I expect the TR-50 MSRP to be ~$400 with a 250GB hard drive. Retailers like Best Buy require a 20-30% cut, so at that price, Echostar would probably net between $250 and $300.

I agree that a dual-tuner HDTV DVR built using current technology would not be profitable at a wholesale cost of $300 (i.e. $400 MSRP) with no other fees or revenue streams. However, I expect Echostar to settle for a smaller margin on the initial sale, which they will recoup through Internet-delivered PPV. I expect Internet-delivered SD and HD PPV to be a key feature of this product within three months of release.
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post #209 of 3326 Old 02-15-2008, 11:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bfdtv View Post

You cannot directly the "direct" price of satellite DVRs, which are subsidized.

........The $369 price for the ViP612 almost certainly does not include a profit margin. It may or may not include the full cost of hardware and distribution.

The $369 quoted price for the ViP612 (verified this morning) is from a very reputable on-line retailer (including shipping). This does not include any programming or other commitment. I would assume that it DOES include some profit. Don't blame the messenger.

I'd be surprised if E* doesn't add something to the price for the guide, and, if you go back and read my post about this, I only inferred that the price would probably be closer to $229.99 (fru1's guess) than it would be to $500 (rammitinski's guess, which was challenged by fru1). I have posted elsewhere that I believe the final price will be between $250 and $300. Personally, I think that anyone willing to pay more than that would have to be pretty desperate.

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post #210 of 3326 Old 02-15-2008, 01:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bradtothebone View Post

The $369 quoted price for the ViP612 (verified this morning) is from a very reputable on-line retailer (including shipping). This does not include any programming or other commitment. I would assume that it DOES include some profit. Don't blame the messenger.

I'd be surprised if E* doesn't add something to the price for the guide, and, if you go back and read my post about this, I only inferred that the price would probably be closer to $229.99 (fru1's guess) than it would be to $500 (rammitinski's guess, which was challenged by fru1). I have posted elsewhere that I believe the final price will be between $250 and $300. Personally, I think that anyone willing to pay more than that would have to be pretty desperate.

Brad

If this thing costs anywhere between $300-400 (including guide data), it'll be a bargain for those of us who use OTA, FAR better than, for example, the Tivo HD (which you pay for AGAIN in 3 years)...

I have a Sony 250 and and LG 3410a, both more expensive (and with ONE tuner each) and they have problems, though mainly because of Guide data screwups

OTA only. For signal strength at your location: FCC DTV reception map
TVGOS data: Sony 250 from 5.1?, LG3410a from my DTVPal setup here, not any more.

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