Mits HD2000u testing - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 11 Old 12-08-2001, 02:57 AM - Thread Starter
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I was at the local Good Guys today, and saw the Mits DVHS sitting on a Mits TV. So I went home, grabbed some tapes and went back.

A DVHS or SVHS tape with HD content recorded on a Panny PV HD1000 will playback on the HD2000u.

The Sencore's 8vsb signal, tuned by the Mits TV and recorded on the HD2000u, will playback on a PV HD1000 thru a TU DST50.

The Mits DVHS does not do visible scanning, it grabs a freeze like the Pannys. However the ff and rewind are extremely fast.

I was going to go back tomorrow with one of my DST50's and a PV HD1000 to answer the burning question. But, Mike's following post in this thread http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...threadid=95595 makes me nervous. I don't want to contaminate perfectly good equipment with industry paranoia.

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Hopefully Todd's Panasonic still talks to his DST. If the DSTs have a faulty 5C implementation, as has been suspected here, they may have been placed on the US JVC recorders' initial Certificate Revocation List, which it could have passed to the Panasonic if they completed authentication together (the Panasonic, passing authentication, should have noticed the fresher CRL and requested it). It would be better (for the experimenter's equipment), if both the TU-DST5x's and the PV-HD1000s have placed on the JVC's CRL, and it refuses to talk to either (that way it won't poison the mind of the Panasonic recorder against the Panasonic STB). Even if the Panasonic recorder absorbed a new CRL which would prevent it from making secure connections to the STB, it might still be capable of playing non-copy-protected tapes through it.
Is the Panny gear at risk? Can I practice "safe" mating of digital equipment? I don't want to catch an STD (Silicon Transmitted Disease)

I would appreciate any more thoughts on this subject.

CRL: Connecting Reduces Life

Jay

"Can I please just watch this the way it was meant to be seen?"
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post #2 of 11 Old 12-08-2001, 09:18 AM
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Since the Senacore signal is recordable through the Mitsubishi system, theoretically, the Dish 5000/Modulator signal should be recordable also. If this works, the Panasonic STB (with all it's problems) would not be necessary.

I saw the same Mitsubishi setup yesterday. They didn't want to play the demo tape for me until the Mitsubishi reps could come and set up the system. The Netcommand system looked very cool with its on screen icons which you could use to control your entire system.

RDave
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post #3 of 11 Old 12-08-2001, 10:47 AM
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Does it interoperate for recording and playback
when connected via IEEE1394 interface to the
various models and revisions of the Panasonic
DVHS and STBs.


dave
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post #4 of 11 Old 12-08-2001, 11:48 AM - Thread Starter
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That is "the burning question" referenced in the original post. I could have the answer today. But there is the CRL issue, and I don't want to put any of my equipment in harm's way.

Does anyone who has hooked up Panasonic equipment to the JVC 30000 found any evidence that their equipment has been altered by a CRL passed down the link?

Jay

"Can I please just watch this the way it was meant to be seen?"
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post #5 of 11 Old 12-08-2001, 12:03 PM
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No worries Jay.

My equipment has neither the sniffles nor any purulent discharges.
Everybody is still on speaking terms.

You seem to be quoting the ravings of a paranoia preaching lunatic uninitiated to the actual mysteries of HDTV recording alchemy.

I believe you can carry on with your experimentations without fear of acquiring any sexually transmitted infections.
Condoms will not be necessary!

"Dammit Jim, I'm a doctor not an engineer."
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post #6 of 11 Old 12-08-2001, 01:35 PM
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As long as you bring non copy-protected tape with your Panny to play with the Mits, you don't have to worry about "STD". AKE process initiated only by the receiving device when it detects "EMI" bits embeded in the data stream indicating if the stream is encripted or not.

If the stream is enscripted, the receiving device request AKE to obtain the "key" used to descript the stream. Either device may be unathenticated if its license has been revoked or can not be renewed. At this time, we don't know if the Panny 51/PV1000 are in danger of being revoked by DTLA.

I am pretty sure that I didn't see any unusually traffic on the bus for non copy-protected source but that was a while ago when I was involved with 1394 in my line of work.

Steve
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post #7 of 11 Old 12-08-2001, 03:37 PM
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Spham17,

In order for DTLA to go in and trash our Panny boxes wouldn't there have to be some flashable memory on the boards? If that's the case then maybe one of the Chip-Meisters on the forum can take a look and tell us if there is a problem. I'll post photos of all the chips if need be.

My chip knowledge is a little out of date, otherwise I'd do it myself.

-Roger
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post #8 of 11 Old 12-09-2001, 07:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by tmitchmd
No worries Jay.

My equipment has neither the sniffles nor any purulent discharges.
Everybody is still on speaking terms.

You seem to be quoting the ravings of a paranoia preaching lunatic uninitiated to the actual mysteries of HDTV recording alchemy.

I believe you can carry on with your experimentations without fear of acquiring any sexually transmitted infections.
Condoms will not be necessary!
Please, Todd, "ravings"? I was merely interpreting DTCP System Renewability Policy, which I'm pretty sure that I understand correctly. There are multiple probable reasons why your equipment was unaffected by its connection with the new stuff: (A) the "powers that be" aren't worried about the Panasonic stuff (I even said that, if I were them, I wouldn't be, since it's damned expensive to record HD from their analog outputs) or (B) you never played a copy protected tape through them--your problem getting other units to play the US JVC demo tape was due to region coding and not copy-protection (this seems the largest probability, but I'd bet that both A and B are true). No CRL exchange will occur unless a secure connection has been established for copy-protected media transfer.

I did later call it "just another of my 'doom and gloom theories'", with a smiley. But it is a capability built into both DTCP and HTCP--if "the media police" :) decide that any equipment has an incorrect and non-secure implementation of one of these protocols, or if its individual authentication keys has been compromised, they can stop other equipment from giving it copy protected media (which you almost certainly don't have any of, so you wouldn't know if you'd been affected, anyway).

-- Mike Scott

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"Think of the cable company as a group of terrorist (sic)." -- hookbill
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post #9 of 11 Old 12-09-2001, 08:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by gridleak
In order for DTLA to go in and trash our Panny boxes wouldn't there have to be some flashable memory on the boards? If that's the case then maybe one of the Chip-Meisters on the forum can take a look and tell us if there is a problem. I'll post photos of all the chips if need be.

My chip knowledge is a little out of date, otherwise I'd do it myself.
I should imagine so. Both the Panasonic recorder and STBs would probably use the early 1394/DTCP chipset announced by Matsushita in November or December 1998. At that time, I'd think that all or most memory would be off-chip.

But note that it's not the boards in the STBs that you're worried about--it's the boards in everything connected to them. This System Renewability thing works by telling other equipment not to give protected information to currently suspect equipment.

Current designs for these things have most of the system memory and all of the the ROM for the CRL on a single chip with the interface and protocol processing. That's much more secure than splitting it between chips. TI makes a chip that not only does DTCP, it can handle DIRECTV decryption--in a hypothetical DIRECTV STB using it, if the media was copy-protected, it would both enter and leave the chip in encrypted form. About as "physically robust" (the copy-protection folks' euphenism for tamper-proof) as you're going to get.

-- Mike Scott

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"Think of the cable company as a group of terrorist (sic)." -- hookbill
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post #10 of 11 Old 12-10-2001, 12:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by michaeltscott
I should imagine so. Both the Panasonic recorder and STBs would probably use the early 1394/DTCP chipset announced by Matsushita in November or December 1998. At that time, I'd think that all or most memory would be off-chip.
Then the classic combo should be safe from permanent damage. I think the HD1000 is devoid of flashable memory as well, which accounts for the very simple solution the Panny combo uses for copy protected material: it just refuses to record or playback anything with a copy protect bit in the iso stream ... not robust, just a quick easy solution.
Quote:
But note that it's not the boards in the STBs that you're worried about--it's the boards in everything connected to them. This System Renewability thing works by telling other equipment not to give protected information to currently suspect equipment.
It's interesting to note that several members, who initially were able to play back their DH30000's through DST50's, no longer have that capablility

-Roger
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post #11 of 11 Old 12-10-2001, 05:08 PM
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It certainly appears that some non-volatile memory is implemented in 5c compliant devices to support SRMs (System Renewability Messages)update.
Panasonic is one of the founding members of 5c, but it is everybody's guess that the DST51/HD1000 are not fully compliant.

Compliant devices receive and process SRMs either from its peer i.e. device connected to the firewire bus which has newer version SRM during Authentication or some other means. (DTLA can send newer SRMs to your home via pre-recorded materials or to devices that can communicates externally i.e. internet, phone line, cable, DBS , etc). It is the process of SRM that will result with legitimate device updating the CRL or otherwise being revoked.

We can speculate what happens to our Panny combo when connect to the newer recorders such as the Mits or JVC or when to play the JVC demo tape. But
without the protocol analyzer, it is impossible to tell what is really going on. Assuming the worst-case senario, it is possible that the Panny combo will no longer record (even with "copy one") or play back copy-protected materials from/to other machines but should not have problem with non-copy protected sources

The above is my own opion, based on my interpretation of DTLA public informations. I could be wrong and have been before.
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