Originally Posted by ApolloCreed
And once again I will respectfully disagree. This will be my last post on this and I apologize for all the banter, folks. First off, I disagree with the theory of the same formula with the F13th series. The first 2 are not of the same formula as all the rest. The first 2 were (especially the first one) fairly well thought out and there was a good amount of suspense that kept us interested. The problem began with the 3rd one, where there is no suspense and we are left with mindless killing and body counts. Now that I am an adult, I just don't enjoy those types of movies anymore. As a kid and later as a teenager.......yes........body count was most likely very important to me. I mean, I remember really enjoying ANOES and F13th series. I also like watching the occasional horror movie that is so bad, its entertaining just like some comedies are so dumb, they're hilarious. In this case however, I felt that F13th Pt. III (and only this movie in particular) had no such redeeming qualities. Keep in mind that I am not demeaning the entire Slasher movie genre. That point seems to be getting lost in this whole debate.
What it really comes down to, is that for me, horror series' (or multiple sequels) normally don't work (at least not as an adult). Saw, Friday the 13th, ANOES and in some respects Halloween. That same formula that we are talking about is what kills it for me because creativity gets lost as we go and it is hard to introduce anything new that provides any real substance to the overall story. And yes, I understand that the point is not to change anything, but that doesn't mean I have to like it.
At first, I was understanding your point. You only like "original" movies, and tend to disregard sequels because they are "less creative" or to be more accurate on my phrasing, "it's harder to add anything creative". Then I started to read more carefully, and then you stated you also like Friday the 13th Part 2. I can't really reply on The Exorcist III because I have not seen it, but like me try to break this down conceptually for you on the Friday the 13ths.
Friday the 13ths all share the same
formula (atleast 1-4, and arguably 5 at times). Here are the main constants (defined as something that doesn't change) of the formula for Friday the 13ths 1-4. These are unarguably apparent in the original, and all of the "main" sequels
. Main sequels being defined as 2-4 primarily:
A) Have an external environment that people are less secure in. This is why they all take place in the forest or more exactly, Camp Crystal Lake. This is what Wes Craven was talking about in your previous post. Wes Craven used the "dream environment" for Freddy Krueger. The producers of Friday the 13th (Sean Cunningham) used the campground setting for theirs. John Carpenter had balls, and used your own neighborhood for his.
B) Bring stupid teenagers to the environment and set them up just enough so that their exploits can be executed. The common trait between every one of these teenagers in the Friday the 13th movies is that they are innately "young/helpless/stupid" and hedonistic (which means, they seek pleasure which is sex in this case, and to avoid pain). If you don't see a character that resembles these traits, then they are likely the main characters and will last longer.
C) Have a killer who murders people off one by one, and make the effect gruesome and stand out. Reason for this is that adds more suspense (something that you and I both enjoy) because you can't really kill everyone at the same time and have it be that suspenseful. Also, seeing the antagonist perform a gruesome effect allows for a "payoff" for the audience. Suspense (chase) + Payoff (death) is a common equation for every slasher movie. Many new movies (even some of Zombies, especially his version of Halloween) fail to add the suspense proportionally with the payoff, which is something that I can explain more in depth later when asked.
D) Have a lead character (typically someone who is "smarter" than the rest so that they can survive) come out on top at the very end, and overcome the killer. This is usually a female, but rarely can also be a male (as shown in A Nightmare on Elm Street 2, which didn't work out so well).
E) Have a soundtrack that exploits the mood and the feel of the movie.
F) Have a REASON for the kills, so that they are no completely random and meaningless. The reason in Friday the 13th, is called sex, something that you may be aware of, and is something used to EXPLOIT the teenagers so that they have a reason to die. SEX is the main exploitation of Friday the 13th--Fact. People die because they have sex, period. Why is it sex? Because the previous campground counselors were having sex when Jason drowned as a child, and this was his mother's reasoning.
G) Have a surprise ending of some sort, something that lets the audience know that "it isn't over, yet".
Now, we have the constants listed. Let's take a look at the original and "primary sequels":
Friday the 13th Part 1: A, B, C, D, E, F, and G.
Friday the 13th Part 2: A, B, C, D, E, F, and G. Variable C has been altered to resemble that Jason is now the killer, or more appropriately, "hillbilly" Jason.
Friday the 13th Part 3: A, B, C, D, E, F, and G. Variable C has been altered to resemble that Jason has now taken his appropriate form.
Friday the 13th Part 4: A, B, C, D, E, F, and G. Variable C has been altered to resemble that Jason has really died, and Tommy Jarvis now must take on the role of Jason.
With this, we can understand that these movies are basically the same damn thing, especially being that they use the same (or vast majority) of the crew who shot the first film. To repeat, they all contain the same soundtrack rendition, the same stupid exploited characters (vast majority of them are exploited for sex), the same setting, the same gruesome kills, the same "fair" acting (which is why acting is not important in these types of movies), and the same empty "plot". The only thing that varies is the killer's form throughout the primary sequels. As mentioned, the first Friday the 13th is a mystery film, because we don't get to see the killer until the later part of the movie (even though the same exact constants happen). Additionally, every sequel after you see the killer right from the get-go...
It's one thing to have an opinion, but it's another thing to entirely blast a movie's intentions (in this case, Friday the 13th Part 3) because you simply don't get it. You claim the actors are "terrible" (which is the intention, and the standard set by even the first one). You claim the dialog is terrible (which is the intention, and the standard set by even the first one). You claim there isn't any creativity (which is a standard set by even the first one).
Know now, that Friday the 13ths are not "great" movies, simply because they are not all that creative in the first place, and they rely entirely on substance (tits, deaths, blood). Yes, this also includes Friday the 13th Part 1. This shouldn't be new information to you. Personally, I couldn't rate them above a 6.5/10 at best, and Friday the 13th Part 3 is no better than 6/10 IMO. However, claiming that it's a ".75/5" which equates to a "1.5/10" is quite idiotic (no offense). On a personal level, Friday the 13th Part 3 is not as good as Friday the 13th Part 2, 4. However, there are many instances where I think it's better than the first one, mainly including the proponent of PACING.
Now, with all this in mind, if I were to do the same analysis as what I did above to A Nightmare on Elm Street, you would see much more variation in the sequels, with many sequels completely delineating from the standard formula and thus, creating crappy ass sequels (2, 5, and 6). As I've explained to you before, Friday the 13th as a franchise has more solid sequels than ANOES because they kept the formula unchanged. ANOES tried to change things (some being helpful, while other changes being hurtful). One MAJOR thing, is that the first A Nightmare on Elm Street didn't really exploit the characters. What this means, is that when the teenagers died, there wasn't any direct reason or intention (other that their parents may have been involved with killing Freddy Krueger in the first place so he choses to terrorize the kids). However, how they died was completely random. With the sequels of ANOES, comes the exploitation, and that is where it really gets fun
. Every single damn character in ANOES 3/4 gets exploited and killed accordingly, and it's comical, hilarious, and down right cynical and menacing how they die. While you say "loss of creativity", I say it's a gain in creativity. The simple fact that killing someone because of a reason is more entertaining that killing someone at random. This statement no only includes the intention, but also stresses the method of killing used by the antagonist.
Apollo- since you are trying to paint everything black and white, I stress you to actually watch Friday the 13th Part 5. The characters and dialogue are fantastically comical and downright entertaining, if not on the stupid side and makes for a great movie with alcohol. However, in one way, it's also a mystery movie just like the Friday the 13th Part 1, because you simply don't find out who the killer is until the very end. This is a clear blend of everything, and is something that you may want to take a look at.