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post #1 of 38 Old 06-13-2009, 12:58 AM - Thread Starter
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I didn't quite know where to post this, so feel free to move it.

I recently saw UP in theaters, and it was a wonderful experience watching it in "Real D 3D". There was no purples, reds or blues, but a regular movie with regular, realistic, three-dimensional graphics. I was telling my friend that us home viewers couldn't experience something like this at home because the image has to be projected, and he called me a dumbass and this and that.

I'm wondering why can't this be done on regular LCD TVs? For these awesome new movies coming out in 3D, it's a shame most of them end up going to red-blue glasses for the home release.

Thanks.

I found this while reading the Blu-ray.com forums:

"I went and actually looked up what the RealD process is and why we aren't doing it in home theaters yet... It has something to do with the speed at which the film is projected. Apparently RealD films are shown at like 144 (?) fps, with oscilating frames for the left and right eye?

The film's speed at which it is shown is for the left and right eye to see the images in 3D with polarized lenses. The technology behind it originally called for dual projectors to show the movie in tandem to achieve the effect, but after Digital projectors got better in theaters, they were able to adapt the technology to digital.

What they need here is technology from the Blu Ray player and the monitor to get the effect to render out correctly on a monitor.

I've seen this tech working on computer monitors, though I don't know if it's the same technology process. If it can be done on video games, I'm sure it can be done right on movies for home video, but I don't think that there's enough data in the video stream to do the high frame rate correctly, and that the display has to be able to show the video back out in this staggered fashion. "
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post #2 of 38 Old 06-13-2009, 01:47 AM
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They are in fact selling rear projection DLP displays with 120Hz refresh, advertized as "3D Ready". But there is as of yet no standard for distributing 3D content on Blu-Ray disks. However there is a committee working on extending the Blu-Ray specification to include 3D content. They are exploring having both a 3D and a flat version of film share frames to minimize storage, last I checked. We are a few years away IMHO.

Front Projectors are the other technology where 3D could be made to work, but 120Hz refresh minimum is required, plus the ability to accept 120Hz frame rates on the video inputs. The disk players must also support 120Hz output.

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post #3 of 38 Old 06-13-2009, 06:44 AM
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That's why 3D doesn't look good at home. You need to have the screen past your perpheral vision to really make it work, to put you in the movie.

Sitting close to a 105 incher at home would be a good start!

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post #4 of 38 Old 06-13-2009, 07:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by inspector View Post

That's why 3D doesn't look good at home. You need to have the screen past your perpheral vision to really make it work, to put you in the movie.

Sitting close to a 105 incher at home would be a good start!

When I'm alone in my Home Theater I sit 72" in front of my 96" manual roll-down screen. It's an older projector that maxes out at 85Hz, but the point is there are no rules. If I leave my glasses off I don't even notice the pixels at that distance. My Home Theater is not a dedicated room, it's my living room, and I installed 3" castors on my favorite chair so I could easily roll it across the carpet. But in the dedicated theater room in my next house, I'll have some close seating.

In a commercial theater, I typically sit in the first row, second section - as large an image as will fit inside the frames of my glasses. I assure you that this is close enough for full immersion in the movie. In fact the SMTPE (Society of Motion Picture and Television Engineers) reccomends seating distances 1.2-2.2 screen widths away, whereas THX is even tighter with 1.6-2.0 screen widths (for 16:9 screens). The seating reccomendations are expressed in the specs as "subtended angles" for both vertical and horizontal vision, to compensate for different screen sizes. The ideal vertical distance is with your eyes at 1/3 of the screen hieght.

The other tech device that will be required for home 3D is a polarizing shutter, used in front of the lens the same way that the RealD 3D adapter is used in a theater. The shutter switches rapidly back and forth between the R and L images, which are polarized 90 degrees apart. The same sort of shutter mechanism must be inserted between the bulb and lens inside a rear projector, or in front of the lens in a front projector. The only downside is that the screen brightness is not quite cut in half by the RealD 3D polarized glasses. Which means nothing more than the 3D projectors will consume bulbs more rapidly in bright 3D mode.

I have been saving the RealD 3D glasses from the theater in anticipation of this technology. It's fun to dream about it even though it's gonna have to come along in the next 10 years before I retire or I probably will not be able to afford the projector and disk player upgrade. But my dream is a 1080p projector with 3D capability and an anamorphic lens to preserve as much of the resolution as possible, so I can continue to sit close and be fully immersed in the film. The screen would be 2.35:1 shape with "constant image hieght" framing and 2-way masking.

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post #5 of 38 Old 06-13-2009, 03:19 PM
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This is an interesting thread. I had no idea that showing modern digital 3d movies at home posed so many technical challenges. Digital 3D is really good in the movie theaters these days, though. I saw the 3D version of Up in the largest theater of a local Multiplex yesterday and it looked GREAT. I sat about half way back but the screen was so gigantic, that my eye level was about the same as the vertical center of the screen. The digital 3D process worked well and caused no eye strain whatever. It should work well, though, because the ticket price for Up 3D was almost twice as expensive as tickets to conventional movies.

Has anybody seen the recently released BD edition of My Bloody Valentine 3D, who has also seen some of the recent digital 3D movies shown in theaters. I would be interested in hearing a comparison of the two.
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post #6 of 38 Old 06-15-2009, 08:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gwsat View Post

Has anybody seen the recently released BD edition of My Bloody Valentine 3D, who has also seen some of the recent digital 3D movies shown in theaters. I would be interested in hearing a comparison of the two.

- My Bloody Valentine 3D uses the green/magenta eyeglasses. The colors are very bad and the 3D effect itself left a lot to be desired, IMO. I did see Beowulf in 3D at the theaters and was very surprised at how well the picture looked and how good the colors were.
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post #7 of 38 Old 06-15-2009, 08:54 PM
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Didn't think the MBV 3D worked as well as the Journey to the Center of the Earth 3D.

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post #8 of 38 Old 06-19-2009, 04:40 PM
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My Bloody Valentine 3D looked great in the theater, horrible at home
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post #9 of 38 Old 06-19-2009, 07:48 PM
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Just finished putting together my polarized 3d setup in my ht. It's 720p, but I was able to put it together for <$1500, so I'm happy with it The only thing I don't like is the lack of movie support. I do as much PC gaming with my ht as I do movies, though, so the 3d is getting PLENTY of use
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post #10 of 38 Old 06-21-2009, 01:39 PM
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Can anybody tell me what I need to get this working on my Samsung dlp rptv? I remember that it advertised "3D ready"

The set is about a year old, and is of the LED bulb variety.

Thanks.
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post #11 of 38 Old 06-21-2009, 04:08 PM
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Looks like there will be DLP front projectors ready for 3D using 120 hz frame rates and active glasses. (Some initial models don't appear targeted to home theater.) See press releases below:

----------------

Texas Instruments DLP Products Shows First Technology to Enable Affordable Single-Projector 3D and Lamp-Free Data Projectors

New Innovations and Unmatched Reliability From DLP Products Drive Down Operating Costs in Classroom and Conference Room

http://www.dlp.com/tech/press_releas...s.aspx?id=1361

Orlando, FL - June 17, 2009 (8:00am EDT):

Today at InfoComm 2009, Texas Instruments (TI) (NYSE: TXN) DLP Products showed the breadth of its manufacturers' 3D Ready projectors and the first high-brightness lamp-free data projectors, all designed to address the growing needs of classrooms and conference rooms. DLP innovation of 3D display increases interactive learning through immersive curriculum with an affordably priced single 3D Ready projector. In addition, a lamp-free DLP projector with LED illumination decreases operating cost by eliminating the need to replace the light bulb inside the projector.

Nine of DLP Products' more than 30 manufacturers will have 3D Ready projectors on the market soon, including BenQ, InFocus, LightSpeed, Mitsubishi, Optoma, Sharp and ViewSonic, in addition to high-end products from Projectiondesign and Christie Digital. DLP customers developing high-brightness products with lamp-free LED illumination include Projectiondesign, Vivitek and the world's largest design manufacturer, Coretronic.

Interactive Learning in 3D

Hollywood has shown that 3D allows viewers to be in the action and experience the intangible. Following a similar path to DLP Products' innovation that launched DLP Cinema and the digital cinema industry, DLP can bring 3D to the classroom, enabling more realistic and dynamic teaching techniques.

Taking the cinematic-like experience to a new level with 3D curriculum, DLP Products has worked closely with content providers such as Discovery Education, Safari Montage, Eon Reality and NeoTech to bring 3D educational material to market.

"After seeing the DLP 3D projection demonstration, I am envisioning endless possibilities for enhancing the learning of our students," said Trudy LeDoux, director of technology for Dickson Independent School District, just outside of Houston, Texas. "Imagine how engaging and impactful a biology lesson in 3D can be that digitally dissects the tiniest of organisms, or an art history lesson that lets each brush stroke of a masterpiece be retraced. Today's students expect that kind of reality."

The DLP chip's extremely fast switching speed of the micromirrors allows for the simultaneous display of left-eye and right-eye images required for the brain to create a 3D picture. The rapid response and refresh rate of the DLP chip enables manufacturers to easily add an immersive third dimension.

.... (snipped)

============

MITSUBISHI DIGITAL ELECTRONICS AMERICA INTRODUCES XD600U - A LIGHT, EXCEPTIONALLY BRIGHT 3D-READY XGA PROJECTOR

XD600U Packed with User-Friendly Features that Shines Brightly to Capture Your Audience's Attention

http://www.mitsubishi-presentations....ctor_Final.pdf

IRVINE, Calif., June 15, 2009 -- Mitsubishi Digital Electronics America's Presentation Products Division, known for award-winning, high-quality, high-definition presentation and display products, expands its projector product line-up with a series of new portable projectors that weigh less than eight pounds and blast over 4,000 lumens. The XD600U is the first in Mitsubishi's new family of high-brightness projectors and will make its debut at InfoComm 2009 in Orlando. This XGA-resolution projector blasts 4500 lumens of brightness from its remarkably long-life lamp, estimated to last up to 5000* hours under normal operating conditions in low mode.

"Our XD600U projector ushers in a new line of projectors for us that round out our new portable high-brightness product line," said Wayne Kozuki, product manager, Mitsubishi Digital Electronics America. "It's a new and exciting category for us, and we're proud to bring it to our InfoComm audience."

The Mitsubishi XD600U is the first projector in Mitsubishi's line designed with the latest DDP2230 and DLP Link chipset, making it 3D-ready for three-dimensional display content. The projector supports a 3D experience when users input and display their 3D content and watch the display with optional DLP Link-compatible 3D glasses.

Mitsubishi's new XD600U projector is designed for both education users as well as business professionals, offering a 10-watt speaker and audio mix capability, closed captioning decoder, a visual public addressing (PA) feature, user-friendly menus, and low cost-of-ownership. This combination of audio-visual features can help make presenting and teaching more effective thanks to technology that is easy to set up and use.

... (snipped)
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post #12 of 38 Old 06-21-2009, 04:41 PM
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Yeah, but the glasses are targeted more for home gaming (specifically PC oriented), not for movies. All the newer nVidia cards support it, as do the games. The next HDTV I buy will support it. I hear some of the games are really wild with it.

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post #13 of 38 Old 06-29-2009, 03:41 PM
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Yeah - G.R.I.D. - Left 4 dead - Oblivion - Fallout 3 - all freaking AMAZING in 3d
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post #14 of 38 Old 06-30-2009, 07:48 AM
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I've got one of the 3D shutter glass setups that I can get to work fine with my projector. I just bought a 65" DLP TV that is "3D ready." I tried hooking up the emitter to the TV, but couldn't figure out what type of connector the TV has. It LOOKS like an S-VID connector, but the pin placement is different and a standard S-vid does not fit. Anyone know what it is called ot what type it is?

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post #15 of 38 Old 07-01-2009, 09:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by defiancecp View Post

Yeah - G.R.I.D. - Left 4 dead - Oblivion - Fallout 3 - all freaking AMAZING in 3d

I've been away from gaming for a while. Are those PC games or PS3 games?
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post #16 of 38 Old 07-02-2009, 11:51 AM
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I've been away from gaming for a while. Are those PC games or PS3 games?

didn't realize it when I typed that, but yeah, I guess they're all available on PS3 - but I'm playing the PC versions.

I've heard rumors of a future PS3 update supporting 120hz 3d, but for now I don't believe there's any way to do 3d on any console.
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post #17 of 38 Old 07-02-2009, 03:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by defiancecp View Post

didn't realize it when I typed that, but yeah, I guess they're all available on PS3 - but I'm playing the PC versions.

I've heard rumors of a future PS3 update supporting 120hz 3d, but for now I don't believe there's any way to do 3d on any console.

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post #18 of 38 Old 08-13-2009, 10:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveFi View Post

PC only on nVidia based videocards exclusively.


Not sure about Real D 3D, but I am able to play PC games in 3D on a Samsung DLP w/ Samsung glasses using an ATI 4850 video card.


Sorry if I brought this post back from the dead, but I couldn't have a fellow ATI owner buying a new card
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post #19 of 38 Old 08-14-2009, 07:01 AM
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One way to do this at home - theoretically - is with two different projectors, one projecting the left image and the other projecting the right image. Polarized filters are then placed in front of each projector to match polarized filters in your glasses. Specifically - you want each eye to block the projected image not intended for that eye, so you use the filters at 90 degrees to each other on each eye for each projector and you can achieve the effect of blocking out the correct projector on the correct eye. I would imagine it is VERY difficult to align the projectors.

The difficulty for me came down to the fact that a screen, if not properly set up with a metallic coating, will depolarize the light from each projector hitting it, so when it bounces back, you don't get full blockage of the projectors on each eye, causing ghosting of the image.

I also started collecting the polarized lenses from the movie theater to experiment with this technology.

Incidentally, I just got the 3d version of Coraline and we watched it the other day in 3d - it came with the blue/red filters. After a few minutes, my eyes got used to them and the colors didn't seem muted (that much) - but I am naturally colorblind (red/green) so colors are a problem for me anyway. I also saw the movie in the theater and the 3d effect was not as remarkable on video as it was in the theater.

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post #20 of 38 Old 08-14-2009, 07:36 AM
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Well, in theory if you are replacing or upgrading your HD display right now, you COULD consider a "3D Ready" display which would be either:

1) A Mitsubishi DLP RPTV or (Any Brand) Front Projector that supports 120Hz or greater refresh rates. These types of display would be compatible with the active 3D shutter glasses used with today's 3D games. They might also work with external 3D polarizers and polarized glasses for the RealD 3D system IF they ever make such a device. Best buy TWICE AS MUCH brightness as you need for the screen you are using, and figure on sitting in a darkened room for the polarized light version.

2) An LCD flat panel that has 120Hz or 240Hz refresh and could be used with the shutter glasses only. Plasma and LCD lat panels will NOT ever be compatible with the RealD 3D system and polarized glasses.

Both alternatives assume that someday 3D movies and programming will become available, which also depends upon the sustained success of the 3D offerings in commercial theaters.

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post #21 of 38 Old 08-24-2009, 01:48 PM
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The local rag (aka the San Jose Mercury News) published a decent article on 3D today:

http://www.mercurynews.com/business/...nclick_check=1

Nothing we haven't covered before at AVS, but no mistakes that I saw either. The writer is probably an AVS member is my guess.

For those of you keeping score, there are now quite a few 3D-capable home projectors but still no Blu-Ray standard released, and the possibility that a new HDMI 1.4 interface will be needed for 1080p 3D support.

http://www.3dmovielist.com/projectors.html

Note that all current projectors must be paired with shutter glasses and are therefore the time-sequential version of 3D, not the RealD 3D polarized light technology.

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post #22 of 38 Old 08-24-2009, 10:55 PM
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sounds interesting
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post #23 of 38 Old 08-25-2009, 12:14 PM
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I posted just ONE DAY before the HD Guru published a review of the 2010 Panasonic plasma displays that support 3D: http://hdguru.com/

It is indeed a shutter glass implementation of time-sequential 3D. Panasonic Plasma displays are produced in sizes between 50" and 103". The 2010 panels represent a new performance level for Plasmas with 120Hz screen refresh and supporting 120Hz video via HDMI 1.4 interfaces.

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post #24 of 38 Old 08-25-2009, 01:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Extremador View Post

I recently saw UP in theaters, and it was a wonderful experience watching it in "Real D 3D". There was no purples, reds or blues, but a regular movie with regular, realistic, three-dimensional graphics.

Wow. I had no idea it was like that. I just assumed it was the standard 3D stuff we've all seen as kids. I've made no extra attempts to go to the 3D showing because of this. I think Ice Age 3 was the last movie listed here in 3D. Guess I'll try to check one out now.

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post #25 of 38 Old 08-26-2009, 12:47 AM
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Wow. I had no idea it was like that. I just assumed it was the standard 3D stuff we've all seen as kids. I've made no extra attempts to go to the 3D showing because of this. I think Ice Age 3 was the last movie listed here in 3D. Guess I'll try to check one out now.

This has been true in movie theaters since the 1950s. The whole colored lenses thing is just for tv broadcasts, dvds and comic books.
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post #26 of 38 Old 08-26-2009, 04:06 AM
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That's true - but the early polarized light projection required two seperate rolls of film and two 35mm film projectors that were electrically synchronized to keep the R and L frames on screen at the same time, with polarizing filters for the arc lights to polarize the light for the L and R polarized glasses. If the film broke and the projectionist cut out one or more frames from one of the two films, the remainder of the movie after the splice had some mind-bending and headache-inducing motion effects.

The modern digital 3D projection like the RealD 3D setup is both cheaper and better. In fact with computers, the 3D effects for an animated film like UP can be created entirely in the animation studio. Contrast that with 3D film cameras which are actually two seperate and synchronized 35mm cameras side by side.

The ultimate 3D capture setup is two truly huge IMAX 1570 film cameras side by side capturing film at 48fps. That is specialized technology used in some very advanced simulators for aircraft, spacecraft, or tank battle simulations. It doesn't get any more realistic than 3D IMAX at high frame rates. But the "camera" I just described takes a truck to hauil it around, it's huge and too logisticly difficult to use for movies.

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post #27 of 38 Old 08-27-2009, 01:18 PM
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So essentially, there is no way, currently, to watch 3d movies at home even with DLP and Glasses technology?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary McCoy View Post

The local rag (aka the San Jose Mercury News) published a decent article on 3D today:

Nothing we haven't covered before at AVS, but no mistakes that I saw either. The writer is probably an AVS member is my guess.

For those of you keeping score, there are now quite a few 3D-capable home projectors but still no Blu-Ray standard released, and the possibility that a new HDMI 1.4 interface will be needed for 1080p 3D support.

Note that all current projectors must be paired with shutter glasses and are therefore the time-sequential version of 3D, not the RealD 3D polarized light technology.

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post #28 of 38 Old 08-27-2009, 01:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lucidz View Post

So essentially, there is no way, currently, to watch 3d movies at home even with DLP and Glasses technology?

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post #29 of 38 Old 08-27-2009, 02:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lucidz View Post

So essentially, there is no way, currently, to watch 3d movies at home even with DLP and Glasses technology?

Currently, the only way to watch 3-D at home is with the crummy anaglyph process, with the red & blue glasses that make the image look really dim and miscolored. Sometimes, magenta & green are used instead, but the basic concept is the same.

Anaglyph is the worst form of 3-D, but it's compatible with any TV.

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post #30 of 38 Old 08-27-2009, 02:22 PM
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Oh my. I'm really very sorry about that.

Thanks for the heads up. I'm sorry if I messed something up.

Its really a shame about the 3d situation. I have one of the mitsubishi dlps and have been long pondering setting up a system to view things in stereoscopic 3d. I don't even understand why companies selling the shutter glasses claim to be able to view movies in 3d "provided the film is in native 3d format."

Trying to find out what native 3d format means, is an exercise in futility.

Sounds like we'll just have to wait for the blu ray 3d that is supposedly coming, yes?

Thanks again for the answers!
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