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post #541 of 6222 Old 12-02-2002, 07:20 PM
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If he's a liar he's the best one I've ever heard, Gus.

There's a lot more to this story. The debunkers cited not only the discrepancies with his education status but many other things as well. For instance, he told of being taken to the worksite in a bus with blacked out windows. He described traveling in the bus down a road which led from one point to another. The debunkers said this was further evidence of a hoax because that road did not exist on any map. Later on, some of the people investigating all this got hold of some Russian satellite photos. Those photos clearly showed the road Lazar described and it was in exactly the place he said it was. Also, as you have pointed out, the debunkers claimed there was no record of Lazar ever having been employed at Los Alamos. And then he produced the W2 form which was clear evidence that he did indeed work at Los Alamos.

This is why I have problems with the current state of debunkery. I agree with Moore that when someone makes an extraordinary claim that the onus is on the claimant to provide the proof. But I have seen instances where some debunkers go much beyond asking for proof. They often start with the premise that anything unknown to them is a lie and have no desire to have the claimant receive a fair hearing.

Bob
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post #542 of 6222 Old 12-02-2002, 07:43 PM
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Just to save me a huge amount of time I don't have to spend, what exactly does he claim to have done?

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post #543 of 6222 Old 12-02-2002, 07:56 PM
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He claims he was one of a team of people in the employment of the government who were given the task of trying to reverse engineer the propulsion system in a vehicle which was in the possession of the US Air Force. And the vehicle was of extraterrestrial origin.
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post #544 of 6222 Old 12-02-2002, 08:11 PM
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In other words, he was asked to "KBK" a flying saucer.
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post #545 of 6222 Old 12-02-2002, 08:14 PM
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Well, if claims that they succeeded, then he should be able to explain the workings of this propulsion system, and would obviously be trying to build it right now. But, basically, if he is at all intelligent, he should know that if he has no real proof, that he would be dismissed.

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post #546 of 6222 Old 12-02-2002, 08:39 PM
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if (he) claims that they succeeded, then he should be able to explain the workings of this propulsion system

He claims that during his period of association with the project they were a long way from being successful.
He does explain in detail what he claims to have seen and his understanding of how it functioned. Simply put, the vehicle is propelled by harnessing and amplifying the force of gravity.
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post #547 of 6222 Old 12-02-2002, 08:43 PM
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Originally posted by RobertWood
The vehicle is propelled by a harnessing of the force of gravity.

Sounds like a bowel movement

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post #548 of 6222 Old 12-02-2002, 08:53 PM
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Extraterrestrials may not have bowels in the conventional sense. So I'm not certain that would apply here.
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post #549 of 6222 Old 12-02-2002, 09:19 PM
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I used one of their restrooms the last time I was on board getting probed, but you couldn't really glean a lot from the design. It looked kind of like some sort of elaborate blown glass sculpture, crossed with a Cuisinart. I wished I'd read the instructions more carefully because I can't have children now.

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post #550 of 6222 Old 12-03-2002, 06:04 AM
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Dean.

He runs into some severe issues when he tries to explain how the propulsion system works. It involves a new element (115) and it explains gravity as a wave. He says there is no such thing as a graviton, among other things. I'm not ready to say I believe that he worked on UFOs, but i'm almost certain that there is more to the story than meets the eye.

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post #551 of 6222 Old 12-03-2002, 07:07 AM
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If some of you guys were women, I'd hate to see the lines you'd fall for. You'd be marrying one of those guys that have 10 other wives and afterwards be saying "but he seemed so sincere" .
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post #552 of 6222 Old 12-03-2002, 12:16 PM
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post #553 of 6222 Old 12-03-2002, 02:08 PM
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Bob, it's obvious that you photoshopped the image of Strom Thurmond into the 'X-Files' tee shirt. Puh-leez!
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post #554 of 6222 Old 12-03-2002, 03:00 PM
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Nah, that looks way younger than Strom.

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post #555 of 6222 Old 12-03-2002, 03:18 PM
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post #556 of 6222 Old 12-03-2002, 03:42 PM
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FBI Director Wishes He Had Some Alien Thing To Cover Up
WASHINGTON, DCTired of focusing on counterfeiting operations and unsubstantiated homeland-security threats, FBI director Robert Mueller said Monday that he wishes he had some exciting alien thing to cover up. "Don't get me wrong, I know the work I do is important and necessary," Mueller said. "But, man, after a long day of reading 450-page reports on plausible areas of concern for liquor-license falsification, I really wish I could order a sweeping cover-up of reverse-engineered UFO technology." Mueller added that it would be cool just to see a real spaceman.

(from The Onion)
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post #557 of 6222 Old 12-03-2002, 04:46 PM
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That's just a ruse to try to convince us that he's really not covering it up.
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post #558 of 6222 Old 12-03-2002, 04:53 PM
 
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They replayed the latest Bob Lazar interview on Art Bell's show Thanksgiving night. Art Bell says Bob Lazar is "the real deal" and Art asked Bob about the rumour that he secretly got some of the element 115 out of S4. Bob answered "no comment" but did say it would be good for blackmail material.
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post #559 of 6222 Old 12-03-2002, 05:09 PM
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Did you guys catch Steven Spielberg's "Taken" last night on Scifi? I only caught pieces of it.

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post #560 of 6222 Old 12-03-2002, 05:18 PM
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Don,

I'm really happy to hear from someone else who heard the interview.
Do you agree with me that when you hear Lazar talk he sure sounds like someone who is being sincere? What an amazing performance if it's all just a product of his imagination.

I think I actually find that to be even more interesting than the existence of a lousy flying saucer. The whole UFO phenomenon has become almost like a religion. Complete with prophets like Lazar. And millions of true believers. And plenty of debunking "athiests".

Gus,

I missed seeing that. What was it about?

Bob
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post #561 of 6222 Old 12-03-2002, 11:55 PM
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Thanks to a nice gesture from a friend, I was able to listen to the show. I think Lazar came off as sounding very sincere. I was tuned in for any sound of deception. Some of what he said seemed very hard to believe, but he had a lot of background info and conversational non sequiturs that seemed to back up what he was saying. I think Lazar may be telling the truth, or part of it. I would not be surprised that he was really employed by the feds on a secret project and they tried to erase their history with him and adopted a "deny everything" cover story. On the other hand, I also believe if he really had info that could compromise something so big, the governemnt would have arranged his "suicide" years ago. From what I understand, the security at Area 51 is super serious. The people who guard it, feel they are guarding America itself. So killing Lazar to save America might seem like a triviality. The fact that he's still breathing, still talking and being vague on some points () makes me wonder. I have the feeling he may be pulling our leg. But he sounds so sincere and matter of fact. He didn't sound like a man who really cared if he was believed or not. I have to admit, listening to him talk was like an X-Files episode come to life. If he is lying, he is the grand master. Art has had some real nut jobs on his show. It's almost painful to listen to Art actually humor those guests, but this man came across as a sincere reasonable guy. I'm wondering if he really received a doctorate in physics. If the government really could erase all that information than I guess there would be no need to kill him. Anyway, my conclusion is I don't know what to think. But he did mention a movie about him is coming out.
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post #562 of 6222 Old 12-04-2002, 12:07 AM
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On the other hand, I also believe if he really had info that could compromise something so big, the governemnt would have arranged his "suicide" years ago.

Exactly. On something like this, which would give this country a military advantage a century ahead of anyone else, they'd pop him in a skinny minute.

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post #563 of 6222 Old 12-04-2002, 02:09 AM
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Maybe they think that's far more risky and would be given to far more damage control than letting him live. If he suddenly turns up dead they would have a whole lots of people knocking on a whole lots of doors demanding an explanation. The alternative is to just lay low and let the guy talk because they know his story will sound so incredible that few people are going to believe him anyway. Especially after they've put their dirty tricks department in motion to discredit him.

At least that's how the cigarette smoking man explained why they didn't "pop" Mulder.
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post #564 of 6222 Old 12-04-2002, 05:58 AM
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Originally posted by RobertWood
Gus,

I missed seeing that. What was it about?

Bob

It's kind of an interesting mix between Roswell and Fire In The Sky where the aliens from Roswell abduct people and conduct experiments in cahoots with the military. You know, a deal involving them giving us technology and we allow them to poke holes in our citizens.

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post #565 of 6222 Old 12-04-2002, 07:59 AM
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I thought the high atomic weight elements only existed in cyclotrons, and then only for milliseconds. So then what is element 115?

CW Hinkle
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post #566 of 6222 Old 12-04-2002, 09:00 AM
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Supposedly element 115 was found in the flying saucer. It was the fuel which makes the propulsion system function. They figured out how to make the thing work using the remaining fuel supply and were able to test the propulsion system. Then it was depleted and they were s**t out of luck. Now it cannot function again until Earthling scientists are able to produce some more element 115.
There is actually recently discovered evidence to indicate that as you start to approach about 112 on the chart the elements will then do an about face and actually start to become more stable. So there is some known evidence that might tend to support this.

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post #567 of 6222 Old 12-04-2002, 11:29 AM
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I want this all to be true, but I dunno...

A friend who went to Ga Tech and worked with computer firms who dealt with the military and had a security clearance, yadda yadda, knew of an older miltary guy who was somehow involved with the Roswell stuff, and he believed him. There does seem to be something out there, and the solution to making it unbelievable is not elemination but just letting people talk, figuring the people who would go postal if such a thing was true would just choose to not believe anyway. Unless they got probed or something.

Apparently a fair amount of the astronauts saw stuff that defied conventional explanations when they were up there.

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post #568 of 6222 Old 12-04-2002, 11:50 AM
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I want all this to be true

So do I. And your seven words there might be why we're giving any of this a second thought. But I'm not ready to dismiss it all just yet. Mainly because I just don't know what made that green light in the sky.

Bob
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post #569 of 6222 Old 12-04-2002, 12:07 PM
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Apparently a fair amount of the astronauts saw stuff that defied conventional explanations when they were up there

http://www.qtm.net/~geibdan/astro-si.html
The quotes on that page should help to dispel the myth that UFO sightings are only reported by "hillbillies" as was mentioned earlier in the thread.
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Scott Carpenter:
"At no time, when the astronauts were in space were they alone: there was a constant surveillance by UFOs"

Maurice Chatelain (former chief of NASA Communications Systems):
"...all Apollo and Gemini flights were followed, both at a distance and sometimes also quite closely, by space vehicles of extraterrestrial origin - flying saucers, or UFOs, if you want to call them by that name. Every time it occurred, the astronauts informed Mission Control, who then ordered absolute silence."
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post #570 of 6222 Old 12-04-2002, 12:34 PM
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Any of the transuranic elements would have to be man made, and element 115 would, I would think, be very unstable and would decay pretty rapidly.

As to the astronauts, how often do the shuttle or Mir astronauts report UFOs? They've been in space infinitely longer than any of the original Gemini/Apollo folks. And in many cases, they are up there with high quality TV cameras and often on open mics as they work. If they are always being followed, don't you think that they could have gotten a good picture of one by now or people would have heard them discussing seeing them?

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