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post #631 of 6222 Old 12-05-2002, 05:16 PM
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Quote:


Originally posted by QQQ
You can't prove a negative. The onus is on the Lazar's of the world to prove their case.

Ok Q, you got me on that one, I admit.

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post #632 of 6222 Old 12-05-2002, 05:42 PM
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Quote:


Originally posted by Gus
Something to think about:
1. Why would Los Alamos hire him if he is NOT a scientist?

Some site I read said he was a technician. There are at least as many technicians and engineers as scientists at these places. Also clerks, adminstrators, accountants, drafters, electricians, machinists, mechanics, etc. People with educations from high school to doctoral and everywhere in between. Usually the number of scientific staff is 1/3 to 1/4 of the total.

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2. If he was, say, just a janitor at Los Alamos, or any other job of less importance than a scientist, then why hide it? Why don't they just say "Ok, he did work here, he was a maintenance guy, here is his job description"

Who's hiding it? Maybe they didn't talk to the right person? Another site I saw had an interview with somebody who worked with him at Los Alamos.

Actually, I _really_ like your idea that they fed him this story as a cover. It was some kind of death-ray they were working on, but it's better if people just hear some story and mentally file it in the "UFO nut" folder. I'd buy that speculation.

It could have even been a joke. Imagine if some guys staged the whole thing, complete with speaking in hushed whispers and making veiled threats to Lazar about not revealing anything. They must have peed themselves laughing when he broke the story if this is the case.

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post #633 of 6222 Old 12-05-2002, 06:54 PM
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Question:

When do you know you 've done got to be an old fart?

Answer:

It's when you know that Ed Norton is Ralph Kramden's neighbor. And you know that Ed Norton is a talented young actor. But you don't know which one puts his mouth on the curb.
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post #634 of 6222 Old 12-05-2002, 07:00 PM
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I wonder if I'll live long enough to see this thread get to a thousand posts.
You know, I could get killed in a car wreck tomorrow.
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post #635 of 6222 Old 12-06-2002, 08:19 AM
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Bob,

I wouldn't worry to much about "disappearing" anytime soon. I'm quite sure that either one of several scenarios will unfold:

1. I travel back in time and leave you a message on this very thread telling you not to leave your house on a given day.

2. Aliens don't seem to allow multiple abductees to come to any harm, so I'm sure they'll protect you.

Howie
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post #636 of 6222 Old 12-06-2002, 08:48 AM
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Quote:


Originally posted by moore
Re: Element 115. It has been known for some time that there would be a zone of stability' around the end of this period (118). It's due to the completion of a nuclear shell. However, recent element discoveries (not 116 and 118 from Berkeley which turned out to be the result of fraud) have shown that even the most stable of these will likely have a half-life measured in milliseconds. This is not stable by any means.

Not quite. Element 112 has been discovered and has a lifetime of 280 milliseconds, element 114 has also been discovered by a joint project between the Lawrence Livermore National Lab and the Russians at Dubna. It has a lifetime of around 30 seconds. Yup, that's seconds, not milliseconds. 113 hasn't been discovered so we don't know how stable it will be, but it's possible that there's an exponential growth happening there that will lead to an even more stable element at 115.

Here's a short news flash on it. Element 114 Note that this link goes to the American Institute of Physics, not some nut-job's UFO site.
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post #637 of 6222 Old 12-06-2002, 09:28 AM
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Aliens don't seem to allow multiple abductees to come to any harm, so I'm sure they'll protect you

Yea, may be. But I aint so sure those aliens can appreciate how unsafe my 67' Monza is.

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post #638 of 6222 Old 12-06-2002, 09:35 AM
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p.s. Is no one gonna explain to me about Ed Norton's mouth on the curb? What do I have to do? Beg?
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post #639 of 6222 Old 12-06-2002, 09:41 AM
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Bob, I thought you were joking. Here goes:

Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
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Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)

In the movie America History X, Mr. Norton plays a neo-nazi skin head and one night he is has a fight with a black guy and after vesting him, Mr. Norton makes him put his mouth on the edge of the curb at gun point. The he proceeds to stomp him in the back of the head with his boot, splitting his head in two ( using the curb as a wedge). Pretty violent huh?



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post #640 of 6222 Old 12-06-2002, 09:46 AM
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post #641 of 6222 Old 12-06-2002, 09:51 AM
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Gus, Does what Jack Rainville said mean that Dean and Moore are going to have to eat their words?
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post #642 of 6222 Old 12-06-2002, 10:26 AM
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Only when they develop #115 and it winds up being completely stable with a half life of eternity and gravity waves can be siphoned out of it to make flying saucers. That shouldn't be too difficult, right?


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post #643 of 6222 Old 12-06-2002, 10:28 AM
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My lovely wife Velma, and our son Dookie (seen here) spent a lot of time building our new UFO observatory...

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post #644 of 6222 Old 12-06-2002, 10:33 AM
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Quote:


Originally posted by Digital Howie
Doesn't it drive you guys crazy that we will never have these questions answered in our lifetime?!

Well, if you want to see the answers within your lifetime you only have to travel forward in time to get them. Time travel forward in time is very real and proven. Just hop in to any old vehicle that can travel at relativistic speeds and do several turns around the block. Say, for about 20 years or so. When you stop the vehicle and get out, depending how near the speed of light you were traveling, hundreds or thousands (or more) of years will have gone by for the earth. Time dilation was proven using atomic clocks, one of which remained stationary, one was put on a 747 and shipped over seas and back. The one that was stationary was ahead of the one that had travelled by exactly the amount of time predicted by Einstein's equations.

The big problem is, it doesn't appear to work in reverse in any way we know of. Let's say you discovered in your travels that the earth will be destroyed by a meteor in the year 2300 and wanted to let us know so we could begin preparing to avert the disaster. You wouldn't be able to carry that information back through time to those of us in the present so that we could use it in any way. However, if we could communicate instantaneously across temporal boundaries, then in fact you could tell us what we need to know.

Some believe instantaneous communication may in fact be possible through Einstein's "Spooky action at a distance", or quantum entanglement. In the simplest analogy, we process a bunch of particles in such a way that they are entangled at the quantum level and we split them into 2 tin cans. One of them rides with Digital Howie in his relativistic Pinto for 20 years, the other tin can stays with us. When DH arrives in 2299 and sees the reports that a meteor is going to destroy the earth, he would "talk" into the tin can, and we would "hear" his message instantaneously back in our time.

Or would we? Nobody knows for sure. Quantum entanglement is real and is required for the success of quantum computing. Because of the way it works it HAS to be instantaneous. The fact that it is instantaneous and bi-directional indicates that it must be possible to use it to communicate across temporal boundaries. Do a Google search on quantum entanglement if you're interested in physics and would like to read about some of the experiments being done. Here's a link to a paper discussing the possibility of using it for communication across time...

Two tin cans and a string of quantum entanglement

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post #645 of 6222 Old 12-06-2002, 10:43 AM
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I'm not eating anything Bob, including lunch today.

Quote:


Originally posted by Jack Rainville
Not quite. Element 112 has been discovered and has a lifetime of 280 milliseconds, element 114 has also been discovered by a joint project between the Lawrence Livermore National Lab and the Russians at Dubna. It has a lifetime of around 30 seconds.

I stand corrected. However, 30 seconds is by no means stable. Tritium is not stable and it has a 6 year (I think) half life. Yes, perhaps it gets better as you go higher but some speculation I read a couple of years ago said that even 118 (which could be a noble liquid rather than a noble gas- kewl) would very likely be radioactive with a short half life. A good piece of evidence for this is the fact that we've never detected any on earth, moon rocks, or in spectral lines astronomically. But that doesn't mean man can't outdo natural history.

I guess I'm also wrong about 115, it HAS been discovered. Check this out:

http://www.beyondweird.com/element115.html

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Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)

It's reddish-orange apparently. Whodathunk?


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post #646 of 6222 Old 12-06-2002, 10:48 AM
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Quote:


Nobody knows for sure. Quantum entanglement is real and is required for the success of quantum computing. Because of the way it works it HAS to be instantaneous. The fact that it is instantaneous and bi-directional indicates that it must be possible to use it to communicate across temporal boundaries.

Okay, Jack, does this mean we have a chance with Salma Hayek after all? I certainly wouldn't want any TEMPORAL BOUNDARIES to get in the way of Salma research.
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post #647 of 6222 Old 12-06-2002, 11:36 AM
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If 115 was really stable, I also cannot imagine why we don't find some. A super nova should be more than capable of creating pretty copious quantities of elements pretty far up the line, and we should therefore have plenty of it around. I mean things like Uranium, which has a fairly short half life in cosmological terms, is on earth in abundance. A truely stable 115 or 118 should be all over the place.

The noble liquid should be pretty cool. It would kind of be the ultimate solvent type of substance, woudln't it?

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post #648 of 6222 Old 12-06-2002, 11:47 AM
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Originally posted by moore
Oh, almost forgot, Gus, I don't see where you're going with the gravity waves. They can't propogate faster than light.

Since we don't know how gravity "propagates", it's not quite fair to say that if it were a wave, that it can't propagate faster than light. Given the currently accepted rules of our universe, certainly it would seem impossible for them to do so. However, another one if the experiments done on that program I mentioned in my first post in this thread showed how an electromagnetic wave form could be "propagated" faster than light. The scientist used the effects of quantum probability to "trick" the universe into allowing it. I don't remember the precise details of the experiment but once again I'll try to describe the way it worked.

The scientist setup an oscillator that created a simple sine wave. He took the output from the oscillator and sent it to two small, separate, side-by-side microwave transmitters that focused the microwaves across a gap of 6 or 8 inches to two small receivers. The outputs from the receivers were then amplified and sent to two inputs of an oscilloscope. The scope was setup to show both wave forms one above the other on the display. It was clear to see that the two sine waves were in perfect phase with each other. He then took a bar of some substance and placed it in the gap between one of the transmitter/receiver pairs. I can't remember what the bar was made of but he selected that substance because it was somewhat porous on the small scale allowing the microwaves to propagate across the porous holes inside the substance, but the solid area between the holes would be as narrow as possible to approximate the size of a photon.

The result was somewhat astonishing. The wave form from the receiver that had been blocked immediately shifted out of phase with the reference wave form. It was quite visible on the scope. The amazing thing was that it shifted to the left. In other words, the waveform from the blocked receiver was arriving before the reference wave. That can only mean that the wave propagated faster than the speed of light.

He was taking advantage of the effects of quantum probability. It states that if a photon comes up against a barrier that it cannot go through, there is a chance that it will vanish and appear on the other side of the barrier. This effect is instantaneous. The probability is inversely proportional to the width of the barrier. If I remember correctly, if the barrier's width is exactly that of the photon then the odds are 50/50. The wider the barrier gets, the worse the chances it will happen, and the worsening of the odds is exponential as the width grows. He theorized that even though the microwaves are propagating for the most part through the empty space in the porous material, in order to get all the way through they would have to cross the barriers in the material as well. Each time they popped out to the other side of the barrier they were taking a "short cut" compared to the reference wave. Add up all the shortcuts and you get a detectable difference in the time it takes for the wave to come out the other side.

When you get into this type of physics things get wierd and it's really all in the way you look at it. In simple terms both waves traveled across the same 8 inch gap, but one got there faster. This means that it traveled faster than light. But really, it seems to me that the one that got there faster actually "cheated" by not really traveling the whole distance. At least some of the trip involved "teleporting" instantaneously. It's conceivable that gravity might be a wave form and also somehow "cheats" its way through the universe.

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post #649 of 6222 Old 12-06-2002, 11:51 AM
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Jack,

Do you rule out the possibility that some UFO sightings may actually be vehicles which were not constructed by inhabitants of Earth (at least not as of 12/06/02)?

Bob
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post #650 of 6222 Old 12-06-2002, 12:12 PM
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Jack,

I guess I need to be more specific;

At present, we are currently unable to control travel within specific time streams. Our society (at present) is not capable of constructing a device that can physically transport me to November 22, 1963, allow me to spend an indeterminate amount of time there, and then return to our present date.

Also, you will never see me seated in or near a Ford Pinto.

What type of energy will humankind be able to generate once our species evolves? The fact that we only use a small portion of our brains is an indication of how far we have to go...we are merely infants.

I think it is reasonable to believe that continued visits to our world by beings that we label as aliens are in fact our own future race returning to study their progenitors.

Howie
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post #651 of 6222 Old 12-06-2002, 12:12 PM
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Quote:


Originally posted by RobertWood
Jack,

Do you rule out the possibility that some UFO sightings may actually be vehicles which were not constructed by inhabitants of Earth (at least not as of 12/06/02)?

Bob

I would never rule out anything unless it was clearly proven not to be true. If you're asking if I "believe" that some of the sightings might actually be vehicles of extraterrestrial origin, then I would say I think it unlikely, but hope that they are.

I remember something Carl Sagan said in his Cosmos series. He was writing down the equation that he used to calculate the maximum and minimum possible number of other, more technologically advanced races that might exist within our own galaxy (assuming of course that there were some). The odds ranged from a chance of there being 10, to a chance that there were millions.

The interesting point he made was that even if there were many advanced races who could navigate the galaxy with ease, out of the many billions of star systems and planets to investigate in the Milky Way, why would they choose to look at this one? That's not to say that ours is too boring to bother with, but rather that it has no features that would immediately draw their attention. They would be more likely to start out by exploring black holes, super novas, binary systems, red giants, those that show detectable signs of intelligent life, etc before they start looking at "average" systems like ours.

As yet our radio and television signals have not had enough time to travel very far at all. Only just over a hundred light years. Most likely they would not have reached the E.T.s yet to alert them of intelligent life on our planet. Perhaps they started by looking at all of the interesting stuff in our galaxy first, and they're only now just starting to search the average systems to see if any have intelligence on them. Even if they did come and look at us, it's possible that their version of the "prime directive" makes it a severe crime to make themselves known in any way. Perhaps their method of propulsion, like Bob Lazar's gravity drive, would bend light around them such that there is no possible way you would see them.

I like to think that advanced intelligent life exists out there. I just think it's highly unlikely they've gotten around to checking us out yet. But they will likely do so eventually. Hopefully before we snuff ourselves out.

Jack
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post #652 of 6222 Old 12-06-2002, 12:28 PM
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Quote:


Originally posted by Joseph
Okay, Jack, does this mean we have a chance with Salma Hayek after all? I certainly wouldn't want any TEMPORAL BOUNDARIES to get in the way of Salma research.

All I know is, if it in any way involves Salma and any form of entanglement... I'm there.
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post #653 of 6222 Old 12-06-2002, 12:35 PM
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The equation is the Drake Equation, and it has a lot of variability because each of it's individual components has a huge amount of variability. Of course there is always the difference between intelligent species in the universe and intelligent species in a particular galaxy. Even if there are only one per galaxy at any one time, that would mean billions of them in the universe. But, it would pretty much mean that the chance of any two hooking up with one another would be very unlikely. Even if you can picture someone coming up with super-luminal travel (leaving aside the far more unlikely and uncontrollable things like worm holes) that would let you travel 100 times the speed of light, inter-galactic travel would still be so hugely slow as to be woefully impractical.

So it really comes down to how many are likely in a paritcular galaxy, and for us, how many are likely in our particular galaxy. Recent ideas have been towards the case that there is a zone in which life is most likely to survive, basically a donut shape around the center of the galaxy, which would further limit the numbes and locations of possible civilizations if it's true.

They believe that the idea that there is always a buzzing, active galactic cilivization towards the core of the galazy (the inner city of the galaxy), as there always is in sci-fi stories, is not going to be the case. And it makes some sense, because of the massive radioactivity and infalling gas clouds and x-ray and gamma ray sources and high likelihood of supernova and all of those things. And there was the issues of metals, with metals being way too low in concentration in the outskirts of the galaxy to support life and civilization.

Anyway, I'm rambling. The point is that according to how you adjust the components of the Drake equation (and there are probably ones like the 'habitability zone' that aren't even being taken into account), you can get a lot of civilizations or zero. We just don't know. Clearly though they are not hugely prevelent in our immedate neck of the woods, or we would be seeing their inadvertant leaked electromagnetic signals by now.

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post #654 of 6222 Old 12-06-2002, 12:46 PM
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Dean,

If your are correct and there does exist an extremely low probability of intelligent species converging, then it might make sense that advanced civilizations find it easier to concentrate on indirect forms of communication. Obviously, it's much easier to make a phone call then actually traveling from point to point (so far anyways).

Perhaps time travel may come to fruition more easily through projection then actual physical displacement.

Howie
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post #655 of 6222 Old 12-06-2002, 12:50 PM
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Quote:


Originally posted by Jack Rainville
Well, if you want to see the answers within your lifetime you only have to travel forward in time to get them. Time travel forward in time is very real and proven.

Jack,

We discussed this like 12 pages ago. If you don't have a few hours to spend reading THE WHOLE THREAD, don't chime in. Just kidding.

Quote:


Quantum entanglement is real and is required for the success of quantum computing. Because of the way it works it HAS to be instantaneous. The fact that it is instantaneous and bi-directional indicates that it must be possible to use it to communicate across temporal boundaries.

Er .. . . I liked your "some beleive" way of introducing this subject better. Some also beleive it's a pile of crap based on a philosophical misunderstanding. If you go beyond hidden variables to an operational view of particle measurement, there is a way of understanding these experiments that is mundane and won't sell many books but perfectly sensible.

Here is one explanation:

http://xxx.lanl.gov/PS_cache/quant-p...05/9805074.pdf

excerpt:

"suppose you have a pair of twin chameleons and separate them far away one from the other, then put one of them on a leaf: it will become green. We can conclude, without experiment, that the second chameleon, if it had been put on a leaf, it would have become green too, not certainly that it is green. Actually, suppose somebody puts the second chameleon on a trunk: it will become brown. Nobody, knowing the results of both experiments, would conclude that the second chameleon is green and brown at the same time."

No "entanglement", no "spooky action at a distance", no instantaneous communication or yelling "duck" to Kennedy in 1963.

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post #656 of 6222 Old 12-06-2002, 12:52 PM
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Bob,

Forgot to thank you for the lovely picture of Velma, I'm enjoying it immensely as a new part of my office desktop. Velma knows what she's doing believe you me! Thanks to Colt45 I had one of my earliest (and more costly) run-ins with the law...one of many things I plan to fix once I travel back through time.

Howie
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post #657 of 6222 Old 12-06-2002, 01:05 PM
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Quote:


Originally posted by Jack Rainville
His results proved interesting. After leaving the experiment running for sufficient time for enough photons to hit the photographic plate to "expose" it, he saw the same series of alternating bright and dark bands on the plate as though he had shone a beam of light at it instead of single photons. How is this possible? How can a single photon act as though it is being interfered with by other photons when clearly no other photons exist?

The experiment doesn't prove beyond doubt that there are parallel universes, but that's definitely one of the possible conclusions that can be drawn from it. In fact, it's much more difficult to come up with any other possible explanation.

Jack,

I meant to respond to this days ago but somehow got carried away with Bob's claim that he was probed or whatever that was all about. One very simple explanation for these effects is that photons may be thought of as wave packets that interfere with THEMSELVES. Weird, but a lot more credible than many universes. Perhaps, contrary to Einstein's wishes, god in fact does play dice with the universe. In other words, each photon has a chance to go in a given direction based on the interaction of it's wave and the slit, and as they collect on the plate they develop bands of light and dark. If you take a very sensitive medium and very few photons, you won't see diffuse bands, you will see spots where the photons hit and there will be more in some places than others.

So, it's up to you to choose: (1) the science of the quantum world is difficult to understand by analogy with our macro world, or (2) the results of quantum experiments imply that our macro world has an infinite number of parallel worlds of which there is no direct evidence or testable hypothesis.

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post #658 of 6222 Old 12-06-2002, 01:07 PM
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Quote:


Originally posted by moore
I stand corrected. However, 30 seconds is by no means stable. Tritium is not stable and it has a 6 year (I think) half life. Yes, perhaps it gets better as you go higher but some speculation I read a couple of years ago said that even 118 (which could be a noble liquid rather than a noble gas- kewl) would very likely be radioactive with a short half life. A good piece of evidence for this is the fact that we've never detected any on earth, moon rocks, or in spectral lines astronomically. But that doesn't mean man can't outdo natural history.

Correct, 30 seconds isn't stable. However, 30 seconds is to the milliseconds of one of the slightly lighter elements as the pyramids of Egypt are to a grass shack in a hurricane. I'm not directly lending credence to Bob Lazar's claims, I just find it interesting that the knowledge we have so far is leaning towards something interesting happening in the periodic table starting at 114. The most stable element in the "island" may be something beyond 115, or it may be 115 itself. Who knows? I also find it interesting that element 115 would fall into the same group in the periodic table as bismuth, the element that would be just above 115 on the table. I recall seeing a reference somewhere (mind you it might have been on some UFO fanatic's site) about a scientist who wanted to do a closer study of the element because he thought it showed some properties that might "defy the laws of gravity", but who's thesis topic was rejected so he did something else instead.

As far as not finding elements heavier than uranium in nature that are stable, isn't it possible that a star massive enough to provide the energy to fuse such a heavy element would already be condemned to collapse into a singularity before it gets a chance to spew out the heavier elements it created? Humans are definitely capable of setting up conditions that can in no way occur "naturally". It's possible that the universe cannot give us 115, but that doesn't mean that we can't figure out how to make it for ourselves. The fact that we don't find any also doesn't mean that it's not a very stable element.

It occurs to me that I've never actually given my own feelings on the whole Bob Lazar issue. I think he's wack. He's a great lier or believes his own story so completely that it's easy for him to convince others as well. However, I always like to keep an open mind and explore all of the possibilities. Even if I believe none of it is true, I'd be happy to be proven wrong. And I would never try to convince anyone who believes Lazar that they are wrong. I wouldn't have any kind of proof to back that up.

Jack
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post #659 of 6222 Old 12-06-2002, 01:15 PM
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Originally posted by Jack Rainville
Since we don't know how gravity "propagates", it's not quite fair to say that if it were a wave, that it can't propagate faster than light.

It's fair to say that it can't unless it is to violate special relativity, which is pretty rock solid compared to quantum mechanics.

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The result was somewhat astonishing. The wave form from the receiver that had been blocked immediately shifted out of phase with the reference wave form. It was quite visible on the scope. The amazing thing was that it shifted to the left. In other words, the waveform from the blocked receiver was arriving before the reference wave. That can only mean that the wave propagated faster than the speed of light.

I didn't see this program but it sounded fishy (e.g. oscilloscope triggering on the wrong thing) so I did a search. Check this:

http://www.lns.cornell.edu/spr/1999-10/msg0018972.html

excerpt for the lazy:

"Very bad experimental design. The faster-than-light claim is truly
dishonest."

I wonder if the Nova producers have egg on their face?

M
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post #660 of 6222 Old 12-06-2002, 01:42 PM
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Originally posted by Jack Rainville
Correct, 30 seconds isn't stable. However, 30 seconds is to the milliseconds of one of the slightly lighter elements as the pyramids of Egypt are to a grass shack in a hurricane.

Then what is 6 years or 6 million years (as many radioactive = unstable elements) to the 30 seconds of the pyramids? 30 seconds is not too useful for something supposed to be a fuel or gravity lens or whatever the heck.

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Humans are definitely capable of setting up conditions that can in no way occur "naturally". It's possible that the universe cannot give us 115, but that doesn't mean that we can't figure out how to make it for ourselves.

See Dean's comment above, don't underestimate the power of a supernova. There's a lot of neutrons happening there. But yea, I'll grant you that we humans might pull a wild card out.

I pretty much share your assessment of Lazar. The main interesting question is how aware he is of his delusions.

M

Bob,

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