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post #721 of 6222 Old 12-08-2002, 06:03 PM
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I find that very, very hard to believe.

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post #722 of 6222 Old 12-08-2002, 06:13 PM
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It's really interesting to hear you say that. In a way you and I have now reversed roles. Here you and Moore have been arguing from the beginning that the 20th Century culminated with an understanding of how most everything works in the universe. Think about it. The point in time when a living species came to possess that knowledge. If that is the case (and I've been arguing that it's not) then it may be significant even to the little dudes in the flying saucers.
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post #723 of 6222 Old 12-08-2002, 06:21 PM
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Originally posted by RobertWood
Maybe 20th Century Earth was a remarkable place to be. And we may be too close to it all to ever be able to understand or appreciate how remarkable.

This is all a plot to confuse me. First you distract me with a picture of Selma and a story about how some cop saw her nekkid. Then a heat pump from Home Depot is actually a free energy device. Now I'm agreeing with Bob and disagreeing with Dean on something in this thread.

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post #724 of 6222 Old 12-08-2002, 06:25 PM
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Do you live near a swamp? You didn't inhale some of that gas did you?
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post #725 of 6222 Old 12-08-2002, 06:35 PM
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Will we still be thinking this in about an hour once we've gotten another dose of Tony and Pussy and Uncle Junior? Probably not. I'll probably then find it "very very hard to believe" too, Dean.
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post #726 of 6222 Old 12-08-2002, 06:47 PM
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I don't deny that it was a very important and amazing century for us, I'm just saying that to an interstellar capable race, it would probably only be interesting to like geo-ethnologists (or some such combination to describe people that study developing planets, the same way that some people in the first world study developing third world cultures.)

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post #727 of 6222 Old 12-08-2002, 06:57 PM
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Then a heat pump from Home Depot is actually a free energy device

With that and a few rolls of duct tape maybe we're about to become an interstellar race too. And just think. We can do it all with what's on the shelf at Home Depot.
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post #728 of 6222 Old 12-08-2002, 07:21 PM
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Originally posted by RobertWood
With that and a few rolls of duct tape maybe we're about to become an interstellar race too. And just think. We can do it all with what's on the shelf at Home Depot.

Kinda makes the time machine in the movie look pretty classy and futuristic

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post #729 of 6222 Old 12-08-2002, 07:28 PM
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I would be really suprised if there was no duct tape on the space station.

Or if the ETs didn't have some equivalent. Maybe that's how contact will be made, exchanging the ceremonial duct tape between civilizations.

Now that they know we have duct tape, we'll be welcomed into the galactic community.

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post #730 of 6222 Old 12-08-2002, 07:38 PM
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I said it once and I'm saying it again. You missed your calling, M. You should be writing books.
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post #731 of 6222 Old 12-08-2002, 08:34 PM
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Now that they know we have duct tape, we'll be welcomed into the galactic community.

Or, perhaps the development of duct tape technology is considered a pre-cursor to a violent outmovement of a planetary civilization to it's neighboring planetary systems, and we are now on 'Duct Tape Watch" or something.

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post #732 of 6222 Old 12-08-2002, 09:21 PM
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Doesn't it bother any of you that we're never going to have the answers to most all of these things we're discussing? By "we" I mean all of us who are going to become worm food before those answers are known.
There's a profound unfairness to that and it really bugs me (pun not intended).
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post #733 of 6222 Old 12-08-2002, 09:33 PM
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Maybe Ted Williams' son was onto something. Maybe when Ted is thawed and they breath some more life in em, he'll be able to get some of those answers.
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post #734 of 6222 Old 12-08-2002, 11:07 PM
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.. we're never going to have the answers to most all of these things we're discussing?

I don't know about you guys, but I'm planning on uploading.

The tricky bit is, you have to go to sleep, upload, then have your flesh self "put down", otherwise the point is lost to one of the concious entities, as it will go on and die anyway. But can anyone accept that the copy will be their new self?

I also need to live long enough for the technology to make this possible. Which means I probably shouldn't be eating this pepperoni and muenster sandwich.

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post #735 of 6222 Old 12-09-2002, 12:15 AM
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Yeh, it's frustrating. I mean, to really be able to take that tour that Ellie takes in Contact, that would be the most incredible thing I can imagine, even including Salma.

Or maybe I'm just feeling mushy right now. I just watched A.I. on HBO-HD. Its an annoyingly grainy film, but incredibly powerful, and the type of film that puts you (or me anyway) into that long, long term picture frame of mind. I mean, it's all just a huge cruel joke anyway, so why am I not dancing naked with a beautiful young girl in the moonlight on a beach in Bali? Oh yeh, no beautiful young girl would dance naked with me, but why am I not dancing naked alone in the moonlight on a beach in Bali? Well, there's the terrorists also, but why am I not dancing naked except for a flack jacket alone on a beach in Bali, with an armed guard laying down a perimeter of supressing fire?

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post #736 of 6222 Old 12-09-2002, 06:11 AM
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I don't know, Dean. The problem is, before you ever get to Bali you're gonna have to drive the 25 miles to get to SFO. I hope you have an airbag and you're wearing a seat belt. Frankly, I would never risk it.
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post #737 of 6222 Old 12-09-2002, 07:20 AM
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I'm curious to know if any of you have given any serious thought to cryogenics? If we're all going to eventually become worm fodder than what have we got to lose (besides lining someone elses pockets)?

It seems insane to imagine having yourself frozen in the hopes of being revived way in the distant future. Yet, science fiction has repeatedly introduced this into our popular culture.

Perhaps it's impossible to be revived in such a way, yet who knows how advanced genetics will become in the future.

Downloading and DNA may go much further than we imagine. In addition, this may be the only way our bodies might survive some time of perpetual motion device no?

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post #738 of 6222 Old 12-09-2002, 08:15 AM
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I think it's a good idea. But can very many of us afford it? Isn't it pretty expensive to get this done and then maintain it for the amount of time it might take before revival is going to become possible?
And what happens if when it does come time to revive that something goes wrong and we end up with half a brain (sort of like mine now)? Would they just shoot us? Or would we have to live with that impairment?
Or maybe a severe physical impairment? And, hell, if we wait till we're Ted William's age to get frozen, will we have to live our second life as an 80 year old? And finally, most important, in the future will they have cars with safer passenger compartments so that when I'm driving home from the refrigeration tank, I aint gonna get killed in a wreck?
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post #739 of 6222 Old 12-09-2002, 08:30 AM
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Is it possible to utilize cryogenics on a hottie like Salma? Would the machine simply self-destruct under that amount of stress?
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post #740 of 6222 Old 12-09-2002, 09:08 AM
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Cryonics (not cryogenics) is a fool's game as currently practiced. They just dump your body ($400k IIRC) or head only ($125k) into liquid nitrogen. Whatever impulses your brain might have had that are 'you' are gone. The water in your body crystallizes and ruptures every cell. It probably looks OK until you warm it up, then . . goo.

It should be possible to extract some DNA from this goo, but why? You want a clone of yourself made in the future? Is there some mystical encodings of your memories in the DNA, a 'la Alien Resurrection? Seems like, if anything, they'd be incredibly weak. Instincts, basically.

Bob Park emphasizes the concept of Pascal's wager for things like this. If you think there's a remote chance it could work, then why not take that chance? Well, the problem is that there is zero chance, and you have absolutely wasted your $400k which could have gone to your kids, or someone else who could use it to better themselves. Chances are, someone could use a kidney or cornea of yours also.

This is basically no different than the guys in the East Village with the "keep your eye on the queen" racket. No chance.

M

P.S. Not to be too negative, I think real suspended animation would be supercool (pun intended). Not only for the space exploration applications, but it is _really_ time travel (one way), believable and attainable eventually, I would think. THe question is what length ticket would you buy? 10 years? 100? 1000?
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post #741 of 6222 Old 12-09-2002, 09:13 AM
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Quote:


Originally posted by Joseph
Is it possible to utilize cryogenics on a hottie like Salma? Would the machine simply self-destruct under that amount of stress?

You could never cool her latin blood. Hey! Maybe she's a free energy device!

Or maybe she can be cloned and her clones used to wake the cryonic undead.

For some reason I'm imagining a cryonic chamber with Bob inside. There's a crack in the housing, but it's OK, because it's covered with duct tape.

In the chamber next to Bob is Strom Thurmond, the extraterrestrial.

In walks Salma 2416 . . . .

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post #742 of 6222 Old 12-09-2002, 09:49 AM
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What if it turns out like 'The Fly' and it ends up with the body of Salma and the head of Strom Thurmond? What do I do then?
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post #743 of 6222 Old 12-09-2002, 10:06 AM
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Perhaps what might be a bit more practical and believable is the advancement of dna sequencing that allows for intact memory applications. In much the same way that we carry around organ donor cards, we may one day have the option to be dna donors.

If we do find a way to achieve time travel I still wonder how are bodies might be able to handle the stress. Imagine finally traveling to another point in time, only to become so disoriented that you don't even know your name. I'm sure we will eventually have to create flight schools similar to the current space program in order for our bodies to adjust to the rigors of spacial displacement.

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post #744 of 6222 Old 12-09-2002, 10:37 AM
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Originally posted by RobertWood
What if it turns out like 'The Fly' and it ends up with the body of Salma and the head of Strom Thurmond? What do I do then?

Thats not a big issue Bob, Just do what we used to do in college, throw a bag over her head

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post #745 of 6222 Old 12-09-2002, 01:01 PM
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On the subject of Cryonics...

What makes us "us"? The brain does of course. Assuming we're talking about being frozen and then revived at some time in the future then it might be easier to consider only that part of our body which is necessary to bring us back to consciousness. Perhaps the technology will exist in a couple of hundred years to take a brain and transplant it into the body of a brain-dead donor. Or perhaps a cloned body created by DNA taken from the frozen tissue. Or even more sci-fi maybe we could wire up all of the nervous connections to a fully mechanical body that would use an artificial circulatory system to maintain the brain. A cyborg.

It seems pretty likely that anyone who's been frozen, or will be frozen any time in the near future could never be revived in any way. There would be far too much damage at the cellular level to get back a functional brain. Any means of freezing the tissue without actually doing freezing damage would most likely in itself do irreversible injurious damage of a chemical nature. You could for example infuse the brain with a cryoprotectant (such as glycerol) in such a way as to preserve it's structure from damage, but in the process you might "poison" the brain so that it could never "live" again.

Now, what if we don't care if the structure will ever "live" again, but are only interested in preserving the actual structure itself? If you put aside any possible views on a "soul" or "spirit", then what we are and how we react and think is completely based on our memories and the physical/chemical "wiring" that make up the synaptic pathways in our brains. In other words, our brain is our "self", and our brain boils down to being nothing more than a complex structure of molecules existing in 3 dimensional space that interact chemically and electrically to create our consciousness.

If we could somehow get a perfect "image" of that structure down to the x,y,z coordinates of every molecule in relation to every other one, then we would only have to put the right molecules back together in the right places. In other words, reconstruct the brain layer by layer (a la 5th Element), then connect it to a working circulatory system and sensory system, then simply "turn it on" and it should act exactly as it did before. Same memories, same likes and dislikes, same fears, same prejudices, same person.

So maybe all we really need to do for the time being is get our brain infused with glycerol and then frozen and stored in liquid nitrogen. At some point in the future someone might build a machine that could scan through the brain molecular layer by molecular layer and sort of "digitize" it's makeup. It would be one helluva big file that would describe each molecule and it's 3 dimensional coordinates and orientation. Any time it finds a molecule of glycerol, it could ignore it or replace it with a molecule of H2O. We don't really need the frozen brain anymore (since it couldn't be revived anyhow) so it could perhaps remove each molecule as it reads it so that it can access the next layer. This is why it would need to be frozen solid in the first place, so that we could "deconstruct" it by layers without the cells spilling there contents all over the place. Now you've got your "self" digitized. Next you would use the 5th Element machine to build a new brain by recreating each layer using the required molecules and placing them at the correct coordinates. et voila! You've been "reborn".

The whole process might even be half-price for someone like RobertWood who seems to believe he only has half a brain to begin with. Of course, the implications of this would be staggering. Given that the cost of his procedure would only be half, they could make two of him at full price instead. Each one might feel that he was in fact the only "real" one and that the other is a "copy". Sort of like that Arnie movie. Even after creating the two, they would still have the file and could make as many more as they wanted. Each would be Robert Wood. A whole army of them! All of them fully believing Bob Lazar's story! Frightening to say the least.

For further reading, here's a paper on cryonics and some crazy ideas...

Cryonics feasability study

And here's a most interesting quote from the article... "We might even describe groups of cells in terms of their function: this group of cells in the retina performs a "center surround" computation, while that group of cells performs edge enhancement. " Wow! When they recreate Robert Wood they could leave out the cells that perform edge enhancement. The possibilities for improved DVD viewing alone would be worth the risks and costs involved, no?

Jack
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post #746 of 6222 Old 12-09-2002, 01:51 PM
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post #747 of 6222 Old 12-09-2002, 02:29 PM
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Quote:


Originally posted by RobertWood
Doesn't it bother any of you that we're never going to have the answers to most all of these things we're discussing?

Nope. It only bothers me that I'll never be able to enjoy my little parallel Salma Universe. Just me and several thousand naked Salma clones, alone on a safe, secure, naked-Dean-less tropical beach. I'll play the consumer in all this. I don't care how it works, just so long as my set of Salmas are there

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post #748 of 6222 Old 12-09-2002, 02:46 PM
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Jack, if that were ever to become a reality ( let's say 0.0000000000001% chance of anything like this ever happening) That would mean that you could actually FAX yourself to far away places and be reconstructed in the other side. ( Did anyone say teleportation?)

Hey this means we can ALL have MULTIPLE copies of Selma Hayek. We could probably download her from the "People Napster" and have Selma Parties!!!

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post #749 of 6222 Old 12-09-2002, 03:11 PM
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Cryogenics is the best business possible. You get to charge huge amounts of money, and your customers then die before you have to deliver the service! They can't sue you if you never deliver, so its the ultimate business.

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post #750 of 6222 Old 12-09-2002, 03:19 PM
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Gus,

Let's not over simplify shall we! If memory serves me right I believe that the DNA Rights and Restrictions Act of 2263 severly limited the use of a "a given individuals original string dna material regardless of that entity being either alive or in their non-original state of extended matter."

Do you really think anyone should be allowed to clone or even reconstitute at will?! Memories have rights as well!

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