Red Tails - Page 3 - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #61 of 79 Old 01-25-2012, 11:28 PM
AVS Special Member
 
thehun's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Wine country CA
Posts: 7,233
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 35
Quote:
Originally Posted by juancmjr View Post

I was hoping that too. Saw this one last night and pretty much is as R Harkness said. I did see it at a THX certified theater. Usually the THX trailer will be played right before the feature and it wasn't in this instance. However that shouldn't mean that there wasn't some THX element involved.

Can you elaborate on the highlighted section?

The Hun
thehun is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #62 of 79 Old 01-25-2012, 11:37 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Cam Man's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Tucson, AZ & Los Angeles,CA, USA
Posts: 2,468
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 37 Post(s)
Liked: 84
Okay, here I am with more movie war stories to bore you with again.

Interesting to hear your comments. I haven't seen it yet, and I should, although I fear I will be disappointed because of my prior experiences.

I was the aerial unit camera operator on The Tuskegee Airmen back in early '95, and I flew several fighters in my military career. It was the experience of a lifetime on this movie because we really went up in the B-17 and P-51s. My camera assistant and I flew in the B-17 using a 35mm handheld camera to shoot POVs of the P-51 from several locations such as the waist gunners and cockpit. We also had to dress in period wardrobe because there was a chase camera aircraft shooting the entire formation. We used an Arriflex camera (German-made) rather than the obviously modern Panavision camera just in case it was in sight to the camera ship.

The only problem with this shoot was the fact that the pilots who owned and flew the P-51s (yeah, all white guys in black face), had little or no experience flying formation. While doing the hero shot where the B-17 and Red Tails are seen in formation together the first time, the P-51 guys moved into positions that are not done in formation flying for safety reasons (wings overlapped and/or one aircraft positioned above the other). This is quite unsafe because the P-51 pilots are in a position where they cannot keep complete site of the lead aircraft, the B-17. Fortunately, the B-17 pilots and myself saw this immediately and had them move out to proper formation positions and still got the shots.

Aerial unit director and fabuous film pilot, Kevin LaRosa, had a rotary engine fomer Navy trainer aircraft there (can't remember the designation) that had tandem seating. He had designed a camera pod that would attach to an underwing weapon station on the plane. The pod housed a 35mm camera that faced forward. The back seat of the plane had a video monitor feed from the camera, and the on/off switch, etc. I rode in the back with Kevin, and we used this to shoot fighter POVs and background plates. I was just there to turn on and off and enjoy the ride, but Kevin let me fly it a bit, too.

The aerial unit shot for two weeks or more out of the Muskogee, OK airport until we got snowed out. I was kept on the principal unit as an additional camera and to shoot pickup work. The principal unit shot mostly on Ft. Chaffee, an innactive army post near Ft. Smith, Arkansas. (This was also the location for A Soldier Story.) The cast was very enjoyable to work with, and I find it interesting that some of the cast is the same in the two movies.

I know that I would find the CG aircraft performance a disappointment because their aerodynamic performance is always more like X-wing fighters than real aircraft once the dogfights begin. I just don't see the CG animators ever being able to capture the kind of realism you can with the real machines.

I don't know why this movie would be made (re-made?) unless it was just to showcase the CG.

On a trivia note, I came across the same B-17 six months later in DeMoines, IA at an airshow on a Sunday while I was there doing Twister. Amazingly, the volunteer flight engineer with the plane for that airshow was Gene Kranz of Apollo 13 fame. It was quite amazing to meet and talk to him for a while. Bill Paxton had gotten to know Gene Kranz while doing Apollo 13 (which was in theaters at that time), and was also quite surprised when I told him the next day on location on Twister that I had run into him there.

On a final coincidental note, one of our fellow pilots in the 162nd Fighter Group (Air Guard) in Tucson was the son of one of the Red Tail pilots. Small world.

I guess I'll get the lead out and go see this thing. Fingers crossed. Cheers.
Cam Man is online now  
post #63 of 79 Old 01-25-2012, 11:49 PM
 
Lee Stewart's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Albuquerque, NM
Posts: 19,369
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 44
Cam Man . . .

George Lucas discusses his reasons behind making Red Tails...

Lee Stewart is offline  
post #64 of 79 Old 01-26-2012, 12:03 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
sdurani's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Monterey Park, CA
Posts: 18,814
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 548 Post(s)
Liked: 633
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cam Man View Post

I guess I'll get the lead out and go see this thing.

If you're in the LA area, try to catch it at the Edwards Calabasas Stadium 6, one of only a handful of theatres showing the movie in 11.1 sound (multi-channel heights).

Sanjay
sdurani is online now  
post #65 of 79 Old 01-26-2012, 08:08 AM
AVS Special Member
 
adpayne's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Camp Lake,WI
Posts: 1,505
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Liked: 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Stewart View Post

If you read some of the autobigraphies from the actual airmen, they state that there was "chanting" on the flight line. Probably Lucas using poetic license to add drama to the scene(s) with the football style huddle.

Oh, I don't doubt there was "chanting" or singing involved. We sang songs during road marches, etc. when I was in the Army. It was the "style" portrayed in the trailer that seemed too contemporary for the era.
adpayne is offline  
post #66 of 79 Old 01-26-2012, 08:37 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Cam Man's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Tucson, AZ & Los Angeles,CA, USA
Posts: 2,468
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 37 Post(s)
Liked: 84
Thanks for the info, guys. I'm over in Tucson, but we have some very up to date and well maintained THX houses. I think I might be able to slip out to go see this it with one of my kiddos this afternoon.

The video was really interesting. It looks like they have done (or at least attempted to do) a good job with some realistic work regarding the view of the pilots while flying. Particulary convincing is the amount and character of the camera shake while manuevering. Making the light/sunlight and movements look real while faking it on a stage is really difficult. Getting the illusion of rolling and manuevering to be realistic is also really tough for non-pilots. Gimble rigs can be of limited value for this because 99.9% of the time, even in dogfighting, G-forces are symetrical, meaning there are not sustained forces that would push you to the sides of the cockpit. You are either squashed straight down in your seat in a hard turn or you are pushed up with less than one G while you push over to re-gain airspeed/energy. When the aircraft is rapidly rolled (often a snap it's so fast) into a new attitude, the pilot's head does momentarily snap the opposite direction. If you try to simulate a turning aircraft by gimballing a cockpit mockup to whatever attitude, gravity is going to pull the actor/pilot "downhill" making him lean that way...which is totally unrealistic and a dead giveaway.

When I did the second season of Jim Brolin's syndicated series Pensacola Wings of Gold, we used a cockpit mockup against a blue screen. We put the camera on a bungie-supported rig that would permit me to have three dimensional control of the camera movements. We would use the script to plan out the action with the actor/pilot and a USMC F-18 pilot tech advisor from Miramar. In a dogfight sequence we wouldn't move the cockpit much at all so as to not impart urealistic forces on the actor. Instead, I would manipulate the camera in a manner that was realistic...as I am uniquely experienced to know how it would look. I would coach the actor on how to pop his head opposite a quick manuever, etc. This was a rather low-budget approach to this, so we were limited in how much we could actually roll the camera. As long as we could limit the attitude to 60 degrees or so of bank, the end results were extremely realistic...and done fairly inexpensively.

Sunlight during all this manuevering is extremely tough to do realistically because it needs to be a really big light "moving" really fast, matching the roll and turn rate of the aircraft. The ideal realism would be created with a large ring/track on which a sizable light would be mounted that could very rapidly move about the ring/track over and around the cockpit. The mechnical challenges of such a device would be significant. The smartest way to get around this problem is to make sure that the fight is under an overcast in the story. And that is often done for that reason, and it's reasonable logistical license to take.

I'll watch to see if I can tell how they did all this in Red Tails.
Cam Man is online now  
post #67 of 79 Old 01-27-2012, 06:22 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Franin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Western Australia
Posts: 17,090
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 73 Post(s)
Liked: 184
Quote:
Originally Posted by mr. wally View Post

will definitely rent on br.

Same

_________________________

Frank

Franin is offline  
post #68 of 79 Old 01-30-2012, 03:19 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
sdurani's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Monterey Park, CA
Posts: 18,814
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 548 Post(s)
Liked: 633
Caught it in 11.1 at one of the Auro-3D beta sites (Edwards Calabasas). The movie felt like a typical George Lucas production these days, what with the wooden acting and clichéd dialogue. On par with an afterschool special or TV movie of the week, but with big production values. The Star Wars-like dogfights, unrealistic as they might be, were a treat to watch (really puts you in the cockpit). The height effect was subtle for the most part, with a few noticeable moments where it was more obvious (e.g., last shot of the film). We were careful to find seats in the middle of the overhead speaker matrix. Trailers before the film appeared to have been upmixed to 11.1, since familiar ones were more immersive than they've sounded previously. Curious how this soundtrack will be delivered on BD.

Sanjay
sdurani is online now  
post #69 of 79 Old 01-30-2012, 04:55 PM
AVS Special Member
 
mr. wally's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: land of the pumas
Posts: 3,805
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Liked: 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

Caught it in 11.1 at one of the Auro-3D beta sites (Edwards Calabasas). The movie felt like a typical George Lucas production these days, what with the wooden acting and clichéd dialogue. On par with an afterschool special or TV movie of the week, but with big production values. The Star Wars-like dogfights, unrealistic as they might be, were a treat to watch (really puts you in the cockpit). The height effect was subtle for the most part, with a few noticeable moments where it was more obvious (e.g., last shot of the film). We were careful to find seats in the middle of the overhead speaker matrix. Trailers before the film appeared to have been upmixed to 11.1, since familiar ones were more immersive than they've sounded previously. Curious how this soundtrack will be delivered on BD.

how was the 11.1 sound? is it worth going to see it just for the sound? if not
i can wait for bd.

neflixis our nemesis
mr. wally is offline  
post #70 of 79 Old 01-30-2012, 04:58 PM
 
Lee Stewart's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Albuquerque, NM
Posts: 19,369
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

Caught it in 11.1 at one of the Auro-3D beta sites (Edwards Calabasas). The movie felt like a typical George Lucas production these days, what with the wooden acting and clichéd dialogue. On par with an afterschool special or TV movie of the week, but with big production values. The Star Wars-like dogfights, unrealistic as they might be, were a treat to watch (really puts you in the cockpit). The height effect was subtle for the most part, with a few noticeable moments where it was more obvious (e.g., last shot of the film). We were careful to find seats in the middle of the overhead speaker matrix. Trailers before the film appeared to have been upmixed to 11.1, since familiar ones were more immersive than they've sounded previously. Curious how this soundtrack will be delivered on BD.

Probably a mix down to 7.1. Isn't that what is playing at 7.1 equipped theaters showing this movie?
Lee Stewart is offline  
post #71 of 79 Old 01-30-2012, 08:40 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
sdurani's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Monterey Park, CA
Posts: 18,814
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 548 Post(s)
Liked: 633
Quote:
Originally Posted by mr. wally View Post

how was the 11.1 sound?

The overall immersiveness was better than I had heard at any theatre, but the height effect is only noticeable in a few instances. If you're expecting stuff to be flying over you all the time, then you'll be disappointed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mr. wally View Post

is it worth going to see it just for the sound?

I thought it was, but it depends how curious you are. This is the first 11.1 theatrical release and I'm the type that had to experience this bit of history first-hand, even if it meant driving to a theatre 40 miles away. Reading what other people heard just wasn't going to satisfy my curiosity. So off I went with a few members of my local HT group; we even had a couple of folks drive down from the Clovis/Fresno area and make a day of it.

Sanjay
sdurani is online now  
post #72 of 79 Old 01-30-2012, 08:44 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
sdurani's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Monterey Park, CA
Posts: 18,814
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 548 Post(s)
Liked: 633
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Stewart View Post

Probably a mix down to 7.1. Isn't that what is playing at 7.1 equipped theaters showing this movie?

I *think* the soundtrack is 5.1 in most theatres. Auro added another 6 channels for a total of 11.1.

Sanjay
sdurani is online now  
post #73 of 79 Old 01-30-2012, 09:46 PM
Bass Enabler
 
Scott Simonian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Clovis, CA
Posts: 13,201
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 145 Post(s)
Liked: 639
Drove down to LA to meet other AVS members and also to see Red Tails in Auro3D with them. My thoughts mirror with that of Sanjay's. Movie and sound.

Here is what I thought about the Auro3D system:

Quote:


My verdict? One word... potential.

Let me say first that we were able to enjoy the whole sitting with no audio artifacts, dropouts, etc. The bass was there the whole time too.

The Red Tails audio design, imho, was not adequate enough to fully realize the true potential that this system could offer. Most of us agreed that there were maybe at most half a dozen or less times throughout the entire viewing that the extra channels were noticeable or what I'd say as improving what a proper 5.1 (or 7.1) system could achieve. I mentioned to the others that I almost wanted for the sound mixing to be more gimmicky. It needed to be more aggressive and directional. I was also hoping for a thicker sound mix ala Saving Private Ryan and such. The whole design seemed very straightforward when it should have been pushing the envelope. I hope that there are more films mixing in 11.1 so I can provide a better overall verdict on the Auro3D system, itself because I feel that the actual mix for RT was not good enough and would have been pretty much just as good in 5/7.1 audio. I'll say right now that Transformers 3 in 7.1 TrueHD at Ivan's house was simply better in every way possible.

I wasn't impressed with the overall sound design and mix but the Auro3D helped a bit. Hopefully another movie with a more aggressive use of the 11.1 channels will be a better Auro3D demonstration. That being said, I thought it was worth the trip to Calabasas but I just enjoyed hanging out with fellow AVS'ers.

My Dual 18" LLT subs 120dB down to 10hz

 

Plan9Reloaded Co-host

Listen to the Plan9Reloaded Gaming and Technology Podcast (may contain NSFW language)

https://soundcloud.com/plan9reloaded/sets/podcast - direct pod link

http://plan9reloaded.com/site/ - main website

Scott Simonian is online now  
post #74 of 79 Old 01-31-2012, 12:11 AM
AVS Special Member
 
pokekevin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Huntington Beach, CA
Posts: 5,063
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 101
Saw this film on sunday with a few of the socal (and norcal) guys at the Edwards Calabasas theater (the auro 3d test site).

Hmmm...I must say the dialogue was interesting...a bit cliche and corny at times. The story's execution was so so compared to that of the 1995 HBO film about the TAs (Laurence Fishbourne one). Still the film was at the least enjoyable for me.

The thing that bothered me the most though was the CGI. Something about it just made the dog fights seem unreal (just watch the trailers to see). My preference would be for them to use real planes but I know that would be IMPOSSIBLE to find that many B-17 bombers to use for the escort scenes.

Other than those issues the film was still enjoyable. A must own? Probably not unless its in the $5 bin.

Now to the sound, when the trailers started playing I thought the tracks were upmixed to use the 11.1 system since. For example, the battleship trailer was lot more immersive than I remembered and I've seen it several times at many theaters.

The movie itself though, being that it was the first 11.1 mix I got pretty hyped about it. I was expecting aggressive use of the "Voice of God" speakers but instead only a few scenes used em (to my hearing). During the movie I kept looking up at the speakers when some of the planes would fly overhead. Either the heights were subtle or my hearing is going out.

Like Scott said, the system has potential.

EDIT: It would be pretty sweet to have a film like Battle LA remixed into 11.1...I can think of a few scenes where the overhead speakers would be great (Bridge scene)

No subwoofer I've heard has been able to produce the bass I've experienced in the Corps!

Must..stop...buying...every bluray release...
pokekevin is offline  
post #75 of 79 Old 02-03-2012, 09:33 AM
Senior Member
 
jamawass's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Carolinas
Posts: 442
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 14
Watched it with the family and we all thoroughly enjoyed it. Much better than the trailer had me believe. It's a classic war movie with excellent dogfights not a "Saving Private Ryan". Will definitely be getting this on Blu ray.
jamawass is offline  
post #76 of 79 Old 02-03-2012, 03:03 PM
AVS Special Member
 
zoey67's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: cloud9
Posts: 2,641
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12 Post(s)
Liked: 64
Did anyone see that hour special on the OWN channel where oprah spent the day with Lucas at his house? I did because I love to see their "other" side, how they are at ease in their home and see where all their ideas come from and most of the time I get to see a good side of them we rarely see.

But in this case I saw a super Type A ultra control freak that makes michael bay and james camaron seem like easy going Eddy. The very 1st words that came out his mouth when they start to talk were on how he only likes to work alone and doesn't like outside help or consulting. Star was was a once in a life time master piece creation that worked because that "world" all came from his creation. But he has to realize that star wars was an exception and that other projects is not going to be like that and let others more competent do the writing or casting. If anyone has OWN, the ep is still re-airing about once a week.
zoey67 is offline  
post #77 of 79 Old 02-03-2012, 04:49 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Roger Dressler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Oregon
Posts: 8,279
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 180 Post(s)
Liked: 177
^^ I thought it was one of the best, most insightful interviews I've seen with George. It raised my respect for the man.

The part about not liking people commenting on the work-in-progress: "It's not finished yet!"
Roger Dressler is online now  
post #78 of 79 Old 02-05-2012, 12:37 PM
Advanced Member
 
juancmjr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Santa Rosa, CA
Posts: 889
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by thehun View Post

Can you elaborate on the highlighted section?

I'll assume you know this but in order for a theater to be THX certified it has to use, among other things, THX certified equipment. The theater I watched Red Tails at is THX certified. When it opened about 12 years ago, that was a main selling point to get people in.

Occupation: Millionaire Philanderer... I mean philanthropist

juancmjr is offline  
post #79 of 79 Old 02-09-2012, 06:29 PM
AVS Special Member
 
thedeskE's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Atlanta
Posts: 3,588
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Liked: 64
thedeskE is offline  
Reply Movies, Concerts, and Music Discussion

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off