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post #361 of 682 Old 05-20-2013, 03:24 PM
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Wow, if this movie is more mad-dash than Ironman III, I'll take apass for sure. I hated Ironman III because its frenetic pace was excruciating, well, that and its star is repulsive.
So you went to see it because....?

The 2009 Star Trek needed to spend more time developing characters and finding its legs so to speak. Sequels will always spend less time with that so it really shouldn't surprise. I found the pace to be fantastic, I enjoyed every minute of the film and while I did enjoy Iron Man 3 despite it's flaws and my personal gripes, I consider STID to be a far superior film in every way. As someone who also puts the 2009 version with my desert island favorites I'd rate Into Darkness even higher. Obviously reviews will be mixed as with any film, especially the sequel to a rebooted iconic franchise, but this is just a fun movie with enough throwback to the originals to generate some laughs (or eyerolls) and plenty of likability for new fans and non-trekkies. It's important to remember that:
Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
while most scifi fans or trek fans would connect the dots and be irritated with the cloned ending from WOK that was over 30 years ago! I think it ok to clone a few successes of the best star trek film while keeping the rest fresh given the diverse target audience.
That said I also thing there was plenty of room for more originality and now that we really have seen enough of the re-skinned elements/moments I'm hopeful the next film as well as the new SW film he does will move out from that and create it's own original storyline.

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post #362 of 682 Old 05-20-2013, 04:04 PM
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The more I think about this movie, the less I like it. I'll defend Lost to the end, including the finale, but Damon Lindelof needs to stop writing movies. Because he sucks at it. He really, really sucks at it. I'm beginning to think that everything good about Lost must have been Carlton Cuse's doing.

This isn't quite as bad as Prometheus. I guess that's something. Sadly, that's about as much faint praise as I can muster for it right now.

Magic blood? Seriously, J.J. Abrams? F*** that noise.

Look for comedy when possible wink.gif
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post #363 of 682 Old 05-20-2013, 04:31 PM
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So you went to see it because....?

Special request from the nephews. #1 was watchable, so I took a chance.

.........

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post #364 of 682 Old 05-20-2013, 04:38 PM
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that and its star is repulsive.

What makes you say that?
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post #365 of 682 Old 05-20-2013, 09:11 PM
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post #366 of 682 Old 05-21-2013, 10:42 AM
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Originally Posted by General Kenobi View Post

That said I also thing there was plenty of room for more originality and now that we really have seen enough of the re-skinned elements/moments I'm hopeful the next film as well as the new SW film he does will move out from that and create it's own original storyline.

Lindelof, Orci and Kurtzman are currently working on a new script where the Enterprise has to go back in time to save Humpback whales and then transport them to Sha Ka Ree to meet God.

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post #367 of 682 Old 05-21-2013, 10:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Josh Z View Post

Lindelof, Orci and Kurtzman are currently working on a new script where the Enterprise has to go back in time to save Humpback whales and then transport them to Sha Ka Ree to meet God.
The mission will be interrupted by some guy named Trelaine, and while on Earth, they'll have further trouble with some guy named Gary Seven who prefers that society be structured along Nazi lines.
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post #368 of 682 Old 05-21-2013, 12:09 PM
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post #369 of 682 Old 05-21-2013, 11:38 PM
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Saw this movie yesterday, unfortunately in 3D.

I didnt know anything about the story since I hadnt watched a single trailer/teaser. And I think that helped me alot to enjoy the movie. I wasnt disappointed when I left the theater.

But
Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)

They reused to much material from the old movies, create something new next time.

Stop with Mr Spocks emotions, the character worked better in the old Movies/episodes. If it aint broke...

There were no sense of danger, it was easy to see how each problem was going to be solved. In Wrath of Khan, Khan always had the upper hand in some way right until the movie ends.
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post #370 of 682 Old 05-22-2013, 12:44 AM
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Originally Posted by MovieSwede View Post

But
Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)

They reused to much material from the old movies, create something new next time.

Stop with Mr Spocks emotions, the character worked better in the old Movies/episodes. If it aint broke...
Your first point contradicts your second point. You can't ask them to change things while simultaneously complaining that they changed things.

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post #371 of 682 Old 05-22-2013, 01:35 AM
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

Your first point contradicts your second point. You can't ask them to change things while simultaneously complaining that they changed things.

Not really, screwing up a character is not the same thing as creating a new character.
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post #372 of 682 Old 05-22-2013, 03:10 AM
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Originally Posted by MovieSwede View Post

Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
Stop with Mr Spocks emotions, the character worked better in the old Movies/episodes. If it aint broke...

That's fasinating but I disagree wink.gif
Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
in the "original movies/series/universe/warped time/singular world" wink.gif, they always remind us that Spock is half human and yet he almost NEVER shows any emotion, any feeling... he always ends up with a cool one-liner aimed at McCoy or something... What I like in the new Spock is that he seems surprised himself by his emotions at times, which is consistent with him being half vulcan and half human. He needs to deal with this contradiction that makes him who he is. Sometimes one side has the upper hand, so sometimes it's the human side... This was never apparent with the original crew...
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post #373 of 682 Old 05-22-2013, 03:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Morpheo View Post

That's fasinating but I disagree wink.gif

First Vulcans doesnt lack emotions, they just surpress them. The core of the old show was McCoy representing emotions, and Mr Spock representing logic, with Kirk right between them. That created good drama, because Spock would se things from a logical viewpoint, no matter what. Even if it would have killed him or Kirk.


Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)

Im fine with some emotions, as it also creates some good drama. But they pushed it to far in the new movies. He is just to much human in this.
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post #374 of 682 Old 05-22-2013, 04:31 AM
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Originally Posted by MovieSwede View Post

First Vulcans doesnt lack emotions, they just surpress them. The core of the old show was McCoy representing emotions, and Mr Spock representing logic, with Kirk right between them.

I know they only supress them, which still means 50% vulcan and 50% human means an whole lot more "visible" emotions than 100% vulcan.


...But does the core of the old show have to be the core of the new show? I don't think so.
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post #375 of 682 Old 05-22-2013, 07:30 AM
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Originally Posted by MovieSwede View Post

First Vulcans doesnt lack emotions, they just surpress them. The core of the old show was McCoy representing emotions, and Mr Spock representing logic, with Kirk right between them. That created good drama, because Spock would se things from a logical viewpoint, no matter what. Even if it would have killed him or Kirk.


Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)

Im fine with some emotions, as it also creates some good drama. But they pushed it to far in the new movies. He is just to much human in this.
My question is, how emotional does Spock have to get before he's no long really Spock? Is a crying, enraged, pissed off, kissing "Spock " really Spock?
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post #376 of 682 Old 05-22-2013, 10:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Morpheo View Post

That's fasinating but I disagree wink.gif
Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
in the "original movies/series/universe/warped time/singular world" wink.gif, they always remind us that Spock is half human and yet he almost NEVER shows any emotion, any feeling... he always ends up with a cool one-liner aimed at McCoy or something... What I like in the new Spock is that he seems surprised himself by his emotions at times, which is consistent with him being half vulcan and half human. He needs to deal with this contradiction that makes him who he is. Sometimes one side has the upper hand, so sometimes it's the human side... This was never apparent with the original crew...
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My question is, how emotional does Spock have to get before he's no long really Spock? Is a crying, enraged, pissed off, kissing "Spock " really Spock?

In the '09 film, they made a point of all this with Spock being accepted into the Vulcan Science Academy, despite his "disadvantage" of having a human mother. That was followed by an obviously emotional choice to instead join Starfleet. Not to mention the bullying he received as a kid for being a half-breed Vulcan. And of course Sarek's moment where he stated that why he married a human was in fact that he truly loved his wife. If nothing else, we are simply getting a different, but not drastically so, take on what must logically be the ongoing internal struggle of being Spock, not to mention the struggles of the average Vulcan to remain creatures of pure logic.

As to the original take on the character VS Quinto's, you can always take the angle that Spock Prime, from TOS all the way to the 09 reboot, never walked around with the destruction of his home world & the death of his mother on his mind. Having such things happen to "new Spock" would have to add more angst to his human side. Even Spock Prime told Kirk he was "emotionally compromised" when Vulcan was destroyed.
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post #377 of 682 Old 05-22-2013, 11:08 AM
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In the '09 film, they made a point of all this with Spock being accepted into the Vulcan Science Academy, despite his "disadvantage" of having a human mother. That was followed by an obviously emotional choice to instead join Starfleet. Not to mention the bullying he received as a kid for being a half-breed Vulcan. And of course Sarek's moment where he stated that why he married a human was in fact that he truly loved his wife. If nothing else, we are simply getting a different, but not drastically so, take on what must logically be the ongoing internal struggle of being Spock, not to mention the struggles of the average Vulcan to remain creatures of pure logic.

As to the original take on the character VS Quinto's, you can always take the angle that Spock Prime, from TOS all the way to the 09 reboot, never walked around with the destruction of his home world & the death of his mother on his mind. Having such things happen to "new Spock" would have to add more angst to his human side. Even Spock Prime told Kirk he was "emotionally compromised" when Vulcan was destroyed.

+1 on all counts and very well said!

I thought the way they used the original material was excellent andi prefer this film to WOK. I'll beseeing it at least once more in the theatre.

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post #378 of 682 Old 05-22-2013, 11:35 AM
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Not really, screwing up a character is not the same thing as creating a new character.
They did neither. After the devastating events of the first movie (literally watching his mother die while his home planet was destroyed), it would have been screwed up if Spock had remained the exact same as he was in the prime universe/timeline. By the end of that movie, both his father Sarek AND Spock Prime encourage young Spock to embrace (or at least allow) his human side and the emotions that come with it.
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The core of the old show was McCoy representing emotions, and Mr Spock representing logic, with Kirk right between them.
This is one of the more interesting differences between the original and reboot. The main three characters of the old show reminded me of those cartoons where the hero has a little angel and a little devil on each shoulder. He would mostly take advice from the angel until it came time to kick butt, then he would listen to the devil.

Similarly, Kirk was the hero with logic over one shoulder and emotion over the other, distilling appropriate advice to do the right/heroic thing. But that made those two supporting characters kinda like the left and right sides of Kirk's brain. By the end of the third season, Spock and McCoy had been more fleshed out and more fully realized as characters, not being as logical and emotional (respectively) as when they were first introduced.

By comparison, the reboot changes the 3-way dynamic into a 2-way with Kirk and Spock being each other's yin and yang; together, they are a complete hero in a way they can't be individually. But to do this, they had to flesh out Spock and make him as fully realized a character as Kirk. Hence seeing more of both sides of him early on rather than waiting for the 3rd or 4th movie for the emotional side to come out (like it did on the old TV show).

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post #379 of 682 Old 05-22-2013, 12:56 PM
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This film was like crack cocaine mixed with Red Bull. Or two hours of being punched in the face. Some might like that. Not me.

And yes, as soon as the scene with the Tribble occurred (the first one, not the second), I immediately knew what would happen in the end. Those of you who saw that scene know what happened. OH COME ON!! Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
Magic ****ing blood so yeah, someone dies and is then revived. And I just KNEW that it would be Kirk in a role reversal with Spock. Did anyone else see every single beat coming after the magic blood was revealed and injected into the Tribble? I wanted to yell out, "Oh now what does THAT mean?!?!

I felt no connection with this film. There was never any danger, despite all of the action.

I didn't hate the film. But I felt nothing. It was cold, lifeless and NOT FOR ONE SECOND DID IT STOP MOVING! Oh my God! A crisis every second!!!!

Just kill me now. I cannot handle modern Blockbusters.

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post #380 of 682 Old 05-22-2013, 01:58 PM
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OH COME ON!! Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
Magic ****ing blood so yeah, someone dies and is then revived. And I just KNEW that it would be Kirk in a role reversal with Spock. Did anyone else see every single beat coming after the magic blood was revealed and injected into the Tribble? I wanted to yell out, "Oh now what does THAT mean?!?!
Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
The curative qualities of his superhuman blood was introduced much earlier, when he draws a vial of his own blood, gives it to the Starfleet tech, who watches it cure his young daughter at the hospital. The tribble scene just took what had already been established and showed the extent of the curative properties.

Of course this means that "death" has been cured in the Star Trek universe, or at least in the Abramverse. Remember, you don't need more of the blood because McCoy synthesised a serum based on the blood. Hopefully, McCoy programed the formula for the serum into the replicator aboard the Enterprise. Red shirts need not be worried ever again. No one will ever die on the 5 year mission. Well, they won't be dead for long.

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post #381 of 682 Old 05-22-2013, 02:17 PM
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Obviously i am aware of that earlier scene. But once the Tribble scene occurred, it became all too blatantly obvious that was going to happen in the film's finale. And since we know the studio wouldn't Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
kill off any main characters, especially Captain Kirk
there was no sense of loss or danger.

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Similarly, Kirk was the hero with logic over one shoulder and emotion over the other, distilling appropriate advice to do the right/heroic thing.


If you say so....


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post #383 of 682 Old 05-22-2013, 03:19 PM
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If you say so....

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post #384 of 682 Old 05-22-2013, 03:26 PM
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there was no sense of loss or danger
And need not ever be again (see my previous spoiler).

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post #385 of 682 Old 05-22-2013, 08:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Matt_Stevens View Post

Obviously i am aware of that earlier scene. But once the Tribble scene occurred, it became all too blatantly obvious that was going to happen in the film's finale. And since we know the studio wouldn't Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
kill off any main characters, especially Captain Kirk
there was no sense of loss or danger.

Was there a really a doubt that Spock might come back after Wrath of Khan? or that Han wasn't really gonna die after ESB? When was the last time James Bond was *really* in danger? Is Indiana Jones really risking his life in the middle of ruins in the jungle?.....okay I'll stop now but while I do get your point, hopefully mine gets through too ;-), we're talking about franchises with basically "immortal" characters...

Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
speaking of the film's finale... I was actually surprised by Spock going postal at the end, and when I say surprised, I don't mean in a bad way smile.gif ...I didn't expect it, while I did expect Kirk to be revived "somehow"...
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post #386 of 682 Old 05-22-2013, 10:17 PM
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Was there a really a doubt that Spock might come back after Wrath of Khan?
Wellll....

When I first saw 'Wrath of Khan' in the theatres, I wasn't so sure Spock would be back. Leonard Nimoy had become so stereotyped by this one character from a flop TV show that he wrote a book called 'I Am Not Spock', recorded a spoken-word album called 'I Am Not Spock', and was performing a one-man show called 'I Am Not Spock'. IF 'Wrath of Khan' had tanked, I really don't know if Spock would have been back. I still think that the opportunity to direct the next film in the franchise helped sweeten the deal to bring Nimoy back to the role.

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post #387 of 682 Old 05-23-2013, 09:14 AM
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Wellll....

When I first saw 'Wrath of Khan' in the theatres, I wasn't so sure Spock would be back. Leonard Nimoy had become so stereotyped by this one character from a flop TV show that he wrote a book called 'I Am Not Spock', recorded a spoken-word album called 'I Am Not Spock', and was performing a one-man show called 'I Am Not Spock'. IF 'Wrath of Khan' had tanked, I really don't know if Spock would have been back. I still think that the opportunity to direct the next film in the franchise helped sweeten the deal to bring Nimoy back to the role.

Here is a recent article that looks to settle the near-mythic issue on Nimoy, Spock, and the original run of TREK films, as well as some Wiki data:

http://spinoff.comicbookresources.com/2013/05/08/movie-legends-revealed-did-nimoy-ask-for-spock-to-die-in-star-trek-ii/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leonard_Nimoy

Nimoy's "I Am Not Spock" initially came about in '75, 4 years before ST:The Motion Picture. As well, it was not so much that Nimoy hated the Spock character - he simply was wanting people to differentiate between the actor & the iconic role he had played.

Paramount had initially wanted to bring Trek back as a TV series w/ the original cast, with Nimoy appearing in only 2 episodes. The TV series concept morphed into a theatrical film (the success of Star Wars surely gave the studio heads dreams of their own blockbuster sci-fi franchise) which was thought to be Nimoy's last hurrah as Spock. When Harve Bennet began the early work on ideas that became ST2:WOK in 1980, there was no Spock at all in the first drafts, as it was assumed by Bennett & the studio that Nimoy was not interested. As the script progressed, Bennett & his screenwriter Jack B. Sowards figured that Nimoy could be lured back....if they killed off Spock & gave the character a great death scene. Spock's death was initially conceived as happening early in the film, but kept getting pushed back as the script progressed - eventually becoming the main point of the film's climax.

It was actually during production of ST2 that Nimoy decided he was enjoying being Spock on the big screen & decided to sign on for more TREK films before ST2 production wrapped. Being offered the role of director for the next film was really just icing on the cake, not the figurative dangled carrot many assume it was. Both Nimoy & Paramount knew before ST2 ever hit a movie screen that Spock was on board for more.

Had ST2 tanked theatrically, I doubt any of the Enterprise crew would have been back for more.

edit: also, Leonard Nimoy himself wrote a letter to Starlog magazine in January 1982, after the magazine reported twice about the rumor of Spock's death in the then-upcoming ST2 & the circumstances involving said death & what Nimoy may have had to do with it:

In the November issue you report that the death of Spock was "brought about by Leonard Nimoy's request."
In your January issue you reiterated the same report and then you quoted "Star Trek II" executive producer Harve Bennett as saying "... Nimoy did not insist on killing the character as a prerequisite to his appearing in the second film."

I was not contacted for a statement, but here it is: Harve Bennett was right, you were wrong ...... twice.

Yours for more accurate journalism,

Leonard Nimoy


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post #388 of 682 Old 05-23-2013, 12:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt_Stevens View Post

NOT FOR ONE SECOND DID IT STOP MOVING! Oh my God! A crisis every second!!!!

This is a big problem with most modern action movies. They contrive pointless action sequence after pointless action sequence that really have nothing to do with the story just for the sake of filling time. The last Trek suffered this with stupid scenes like the snow monsters and Scotty's adventures in the cooling pipe.

Honestly, this movie was over as soon as...
Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
... the torpedoes exploded in the Vengeance. That should have been the end of the ship and the end of Khan. But no, then we need to have a 15-minute scene where the Enterprise freefalls down to Earth for no particular reason. FFS, the ship was out near the moon. There was no way it could have been caught in Earth's gravity. And even if it had, why were there no other spacecraft in the vicinity of Earth that could have rescued them with a tractor beam? Isn't Spacedock right there?

So then that gets resolved, and then we need to have ANOTHER action scene where Khan crashes the Vengeance into San Francisco. And then that has to be followed by ANOTHER action scene where Spock chases Khan through the city to get his blood. Why couldn't McCoy have just taken blood from any of the other 72 people from Khan's crew who were RIGHT THERE?

It's just one thing after another after another after another, with no time to breathe between them. It's monotonous.

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post #389 of 682 Old 05-23-2013, 12:39 PM
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Saw it and was entertained. Most criticism of the movie is somewhat valid IMO, but then again it ain't gonna be the ST many of us grew up with. If it was true to the original (or even a later refresh) then the question would be, "What's the Point?". JJA was hired to produce his vision and that's what he has done. The general audience will pay the admission and will expect a certain amount of screen filling, ear drum busting action. That's what JJA brings. I do believe he makes an attempt to show some character development, but it's a two hour movie not a season long tv series. One can only do so much and if he errs it had better be on the side of action in a summer blockbuster. I enjoyed a lot of the limited dialogue and would have liked more of it. Like I said, it was entertaining. It's not going to be archived as a great motion picture, just a money maker.
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post #390 of 682 Old 05-23-2013, 12:58 PM
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@Josh Z....if we are going by original Trek lore regarding Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
Khan Noonien Singh
in the second of your spoiler tagged comments above....
Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
Khan escaped (The Eugenics Wars) and their consequences along with 84 followers who swore to live and die at his command. He saw his best option in a risky, self-imposed exile. In 1996, he took control of a DY-100-class interplanetary sleeper ship he christened SS Botany Bay, named for the site of the Australian penal colony. Set on a course outbound from the solar system, but with no apparent destination in mind, Khan and his people remained in suspended animation for Botany Bay's (nearly) 200-year sublight journey.

http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Khan_Noonien_Singh

Khan Prime was either the only genetically altered member of the SS Botany Bay, or he was simply the most advanced - and his logically somewhat altered son, surely with non-altered 23rd century Enterprise historian McGivers, was not a character in Space Seed, but merely one created for ST2. If the reboot is following a similar origin story, Khan/"Harrison" was the only "superman" among his group of meat popsicles. Others among his group may have been "augments", but not of the superior level of Khan. Therefore, only Khan would have "magic blood"

Or did I miss something during the relentless - and rather entertaining, IMO - action of Into Darkness?

I will say that the relentless pace of the film was something I noticed myself about halfway in. And yeah, JJ essentially made Mission Impossible:Trek Into Darkness. BUt I was fine with it & was fully entertained. And I think Abrams leaves the franchise with a solid popcorn action flick that does fan service that casual or non-fans can appreciate. And we now have a decent cast dynamic set up to tackle Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
the potentially deeper, TOS-tinged installments involving Enterprise's "new" 5 year mission...and, of course, Klingons!
that will surely be another director's job while JJ is off playing in that other "Star" franchise universe.

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