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post #1 of 51 Old 03-11-2012, 02:38 PM - Thread Starter
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Not sure where to post this, but for real film lovers who love the look of film as projected through a print from the negative, and not by digital, at the local theaters, those days will all be gone by the end of summer or no later than 2013.


Seems all new films will be distributed only by digital servers, so enjoy it while you can.


http://www.thetelegraph.com/articles...m-theater.html

http://minnesota.publicradio.org/dis...gital-upgrade/


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post #2 of 51 Old 03-11-2012, 02:40 PM
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I've never seen a projected negative .

The proper setting for sharpness is always0.
Also my Oppo BDP-103D is region free.
That makes me awesome.
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post #3 of 51 Old 03-11-2012, 02:50 PM
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I don't know if it said it in the articles, but a year or so ago there was an article in the WSJ that the largest theater owners (controlling virtually all screens) and many studios formed an alliance and put $600M toward converting everything. At the time, it was about 3D, but I'm guessing that was just a wedge.

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post #4 of 51 Old 03-11-2012, 03:07 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by fjames View Post

I don't know if it said it in the articles, but a year or so ago there was an article in the WSJ that the largest theater owners (controlling virtually all screens) and many studios formed an alliance and put $600M toward converting everything. At the time, it was about 3D, but I'm guessing that was just a wedge.

I heard something similar from a manager at the Cinemark.....that it was going to be an inescapable change via some big agreement, and it was the end of the old style projectors

He told me that it has gotten to the point that they can no longer find parts for some of them. To fix them they were buying parts from old projectors or just stripping them from other projectors.

So there may no longer be much of an argument about natural grain and access to something to draw the comparsion.

While I have fussed about all this grain loving debate that others seem so in love with grain in their digital, nevertheless, I still love real film in both photography and movies, when developed and seen through the pure process without any intervening digitalization.....

thus: Sic transit gloria

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post #5 of 51 Old 03-11-2012, 03:10 PM
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I understand opinions vary, however...

The average polyester high speed dupe print the vast majority of people have seen for a number of years now is just above 720p in digital terms as far as resolution and color balance can vary widely from batch to batch. That's when it's new. The degradation of the element begins with the first pass through the gate of the projector. A projector that could be 25 years old, or more, and of questionable condition. many (most?) of them run by the same guy that also scoops up your overpriced popcorn.

Obviously digital is not a perfect medium either, but if any group would understand the inherent advantages of a digital system in movie presentation, I would expect that here.

Every screen in every theater gets the same digital video file that is a virtual duplicate of the master that the filmmakers created. While there is some variation in digital projectors, it is nowhere near that of film projection. The local theaters I frequent have been all digital since last year, with my main location having been all digital since it was built several years ago. This location also added two digital IMAX screens in the past year. I recently saw my first digital IMAX presentation when I got out to see Ghost Protocol. I was stunned. And this was in the last weekend the movie was running. Of course it looked as good as opening night.

No more film projection at the local cineplex?

I will shed no tears.
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post #6 of 51 Old 03-11-2012, 03:11 PM
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All of the big theaters in my area have been digital only for awhile now.
Kind of sad, but at least the technology has gotten better.
When I saw Spiderman 3 in the theater a few years ago with digital projection, the action scenes were nearly unwatchable. It was a huge smeary mess.

There are a few little indie art-house style theaters that still use film in my area, but I never have the desire to go to those. Last film I attended in one of those was Repo! The Genetic Opera.

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post #7 of 51 Old 03-11-2012, 03:19 PM
 
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end of an era this and the death of CD's this year is a real let down for me.
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post #8 of 51 Old 03-11-2012, 04:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iBob57 View Post

I understand opinions vary, however...

The average polyester high speed dupe print the vast majority of people have seen for a number of years now is just above 720p in digital terms as far as resolution and color balance can vary widely from batch to batch. That's when it's new. The degradation of the element begins with the first pass through the gate of the projector. A projector that could be 25 years old, or more, and of questionable condition. many (most?) of them run by the same guy that also scoops up your overpriced popcorn.

Obviously digital is not a perfect medium either, but if any group would understand the inherent advantages of a digital system in movie presentation, I would expect that here.

Every screen in every theater gets the same digital video file that is a virtual duplicate of the master that the filmmakers created. While there is some variation in digital projectors, it is nowhere near that of film projection. The local theaters I frequent have been all digital since last year, with my main location having been all digital since it was built several years ago. This location also added two digital IMAX screens in the past year. I recently saw my first digital IMAX presentation when I got out to see Ghost Protocol. I was stunned. And this was in the last weekend the movie was running. Of course it looked as good as opening night.

No more film projection at the local cineplex?

I will shed no tears.

This.

I don't feel special...
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post #9 of 51 Old 03-11-2012, 04:37 PM
 
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Low res digital ease of use and low cost is the future then
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post #10 of 51 Old 03-11-2012, 04:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HVisone View Post

Not sure where to post this, but for real film lovers who love the look of film as projected through a print from the negative, and not by digital, at the local theaters, those days will all be gone by the end of summer or no later than 2013.

Seems all new films will be distributed only by digital servers, so enjoy it while you can.

Digital projectors have and will become better in resolution and contrast. The positives of digital distribution and projection far out weight any cons now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HVisone View Post

So there may no longer be much of an argument about natural grain and access to something to draw the comparsion.

While I have fussed about all this grain loving debate that others seem so in love with grain in their digital, nevertheless, I still love real film in both photography and movies, when developed and seen through the pure process without any intervening digitalization.....

thus: Sic transit gloria

If something is shot on film and receives a quality 2K+ scan then accurate grain reproduction will continue to be of great importance, both in theatrical exhibition and home theater release. With advancements in the digital pipeline a scanned film can be for all intents and purposes be finally presented essentially transparent to the source.

Film as the primary capture medium is waning, but full onset will not be for a while, it still has some capabilities that digital capture has yet to achieve.

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Originally Posted by dvdmike007 View Post

end of an this and the death of CD's this year is a real let down for me

In some ways I do feel a bit despondent with the thought that projected film for the masses is going the way of the dodo, but at the same time progress is improving the experience.

In regards to CDs, I will miss them but what I adamantly grieve is the loss of stellar audio engineering, mixing, and mastering. I want distortion free and dynamic High-Fidelity to become the norm not the exception.

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post #11 of 51 Old 03-11-2012, 04:45 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KMFDMvsEnya View Post

Digital projectors have and will become better in resolution and contrast. The positives of digital distribution and projection far out weight any cons now.



If something is shot on film and receives a quality 2K+ scan then accurate grain reproduction will continue to be of great importance, both in theatrical exhibition and home theater release. With advancements in the digital pipeline a scanned film can be for all intents and purposes be finally presented essentially transparent to the source.

Film as the primary capture medium is waning, but full onset will not be for a while, it still has some capabilities that digital capture has yet to achieve.



In some ways I do feel a bit despondent with the thought that projected film for the masses is going the way of the dodo, but at the same time progress is improving the experience.

In regards to CDs, I will miss them but what I adamantly grieve is the loss of stellar audio engineering, mixing, and mastering. I want distortion free and dynamic High-Fidelity to become the norm not the exception.

Best Regards
KvE

As long as the digital prints are 4k plus, and 100% DNR free I am better with it. But I still really will miss the look of a prefect 35mm print, let alone a 70/65mm print.
That is a hell of a drop in res, as for CD's unless Flac becomes common place I could not live with just mp3.
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post #12 of 51 Old 03-11-2012, 04:59 PM
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Modern digital projectors surpass 35mm prints in many respects. I don't really have a problem with this change, though I've heard the cost of replacing film projectors will drive some smaller theater chains out of business.
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post #13 of 51 Old 03-11-2012, 05:15 PM
 
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Originally Posted by iBob57 View Post


I will shed no tears.

You will when the only cinemas left are the big box mart type.


This is going to be the straw the broke the camels back for many independent cinemas, chains and 2nd run theaters. Probably also going to shut down a lot of drive in movie theaters that have seen a sort of resurrection the last few years.
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post #14 of 51 Old 03-11-2012, 05:40 PM
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You will when the only cinemas left are the big box mart type.


This is going to be the straw the broke the camels back for many independent cinemas, chains and 2nd run theaters. Probably also going to shut down a lot of drive in movie theaters that have seen a sort of resurrection the last few years.

Maybe, in the short term, but what usually happens when large corps try to force everyone into the same box is it creates opportunity for niche markets. Or, price comes down and more can play.

Counting on entertainment execs to do anything that benefits the end user is a fools game I fear. 4K scans into 4K, properly maintained and configured projectors would revolutionize the theater going experience. Not holding my breath, but first in line if it happens

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post #15 of 51 Old 03-11-2012, 05:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dvdmike007 View Post

Low res



Not compared to commercial film prints.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dvdmike007 View Post

digital ease of use

Is this problematic?

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Originally Posted by dvdmike007 View Post

low cost is the future

Has it ever been otherwise?

I don't feel special...
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post #16 of 51 Old 03-11-2012, 05:43 PM
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Originally Posted by dvdmike007 View Post

As long as the digital prints are 4k plus, and 100% DNR free I am better with it. But I still really will miss the look of a prefect 35mm print, let alone a 70/65mm print. That is a hell of a drop in res

No, it isn't. 2K projection surpasses the visible resolution of 99% of the commercial 35mm prints out there. Don't cry for what you think you'll be missing because it wasn't actually there for you to miss.

I don't feel special...
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post #17 of 51 Old 03-11-2012, 05:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iBob57 View Post

I understand opinions vary, however...

The average polyester high speed dupe print the vast majority of people have seen for a number of years now is just above 720p in digital terms as far as resolution and color balance can vary widely from batch to batch. That's when it's new. The degradation of the element begins with the first pass through the gate of the projector. A projector that could be 25 years old, or more, and of questionable condition. many (most?) of them run by the same guy that also scoops up your overpriced popcorn.

Obviously digital is not a perfect medium either, but if any group would understand the inherent advantages of a digital system in movie presentation, I would expect that here.

Every screen in every theater gets the same digital video file that is a virtual duplicate of the master that the filmmakers created. While there is some variation in digital projectors, it is nowhere near that of film projection. The local theaters I frequent have been all digital since last year, with my main location having been all digital since it was built several years ago. This location also added two digital IMAX screens in the past year. I recently saw my first digital IMAX presentation when I got out to see Ghost Protocol. I was stunned. And this was in the last weekend the movie was running. Of course it looked as good as opening night.

No more film projection at the local cineplex?

I will shed no tears.

Beautifully put and 100% correct.
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post #18 of 51 Old 03-11-2012, 07:32 PM
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Sometimes the film print is superb. I still vividly remember the 2003 showing of the film Paycheck at a local AMC theater. My buddies and I lingered too long over dinner and were late arriving for the premeir showing. We were forced to take individual seats throughout the theater and I ended up in the first row of the theater.

Fortunately the projectionist was superb. The image was framed perfectly on the screen, and finely focussed. I had just updated my glasses and the prescription was dead on. From my first row seat I could see every pore in Uma Thurmond's face and the individual grains of makeup in each one. It was so distracting I ended up taking my glasses off to slightly blur the detail.

The film was perfectly focussed and exposed, the prints were superbly made, and the projectionist was extremely skillfull. I have never again seen the equal of that one 35mm film showing.

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post #19 of 51 Old 03-11-2012, 07:39 PM
 
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Meh, this was inevitable. The costs of printing and distributing film became problematic long ago, and in the wake of the digital revolution the idea of continuing to support that process becomes non-sensical. Digital shooting has already equaled (and in some ways, surpassed) shooting on film, so I imagine it will only be a matter of time until we can say the same about digitally projecting those films. Once every theater has a Christie 4K, I doubt anyone will really care anymore and we will all benefit from it.
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post #20 of 51 Old 03-11-2012, 11:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iBob57 View Post

I understand opinions vary, however...

The average polyester high speed dupe print the vast majority of people have seen for a number of years now is just above 720p in digital terms as far as resolution and color balance can vary widely from batch to batch. That's when it's new. The degradation of the element begins with the first pass through the gate of the projector. A projector that could be 25 years old, or more, and of questionable condition. many (most?) of them run by the same guy that also scoops up your overpriced popcorn.

Obviously digital is not a perfect medium either, but if any group would understand the inherent advantages of a digital system in movie presentation, I would expect that here.

Every screen in every theater gets the same digital video file that is a virtual duplicate of the master that the filmmakers created. While there is some variation in digital projectors, it is nowhere near that of film projection. The local theaters I frequent have been all digital since last year, with my main location having been all digital since it was built several years ago. This location also added two digital IMAX screens in the past year. I recently saw my first digital IMAX presentation when I got out to see Ghost Protocol. I was stunned. And this was in the last weekend the movie was running. Of course it looked as good as opening night.

No more film projection at the local cineplex?

I will shed no tears.

Agreed, a lot of people don't seem to grasp that unless you see those prints on the first show, you already seen a degraded presentation, which wasn't an exact copy to begin with, not to mention the extremely varied conditions of those projectors themselves. Those who thinks that digital robs them from the original experience of the film, you might wanna surrender to the fact that you may never really had one.

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post #21 of 51 Old 03-12-2012, 03:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iBob57 View Post

I understand opinions vary, however...

The average polyester high speed dupe print the vast majority of people have seen for a number of years now is just above 720p in digital terms as far as resolution and color balance can vary widely from batch to batch. That's when it's new. The degradation of the element begins with the first pass through the gate of the projector. A projector that could be 25 years old, or more, and of questionable condition. many (most?) of them run by the same guy that also scoops up your overpriced popcorn.

Obviously digital is not a perfect medium either, but if any group would understand the inherent advantages of a digital system in movie presentation, I would expect that here.

Every screen in every theater gets the same digital video file that is a virtual duplicate of the master that the filmmakers created. While there is some variation in digital projectors, it is nowhere near that of film projection. The local theaters I frequent have been all digital since last year, with my main location having been all digital since it was built several years ago. This location also added two digital IMAX screens in the past year. I recently saw my first digital IMAX presentation when I got out to see Ghost Protocol. I was stunned. And this was in the last weekend the movie was running. Of course it looked as good as opening night.

No more film projection at the local cineplex?

I will shed no tears.

+1.

I'm tired of the 'vinyl is better' mentality.
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post #22 of 51 Old 03-12-2012, 07:23 AM
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The best presentations in NYC I have seen the past two years have been prints. The worst... Digital. In each case, the print had a projectionist who knew what he was doing behind the projector. That is the key. With digital, so much can go wrong and does and all too frequently we now have 3D setups in place for 2D projection, which means dark picture that is unwatchabe. My movie watching has been greatly reduced. i now go maybe four times a year and only to IMAX or the Landmark in NYC where they have actual prints.

Even my beloved Ziegfeld has been ruined. The last three trips were all @ss because the picture was so dark.

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post #23 of 51 Old 03-12-2012, 07:38 AM
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The best presentations in NYC I have seen the past two years have been prints. The worst... Digital. In each case, the print had a projectionist who knew what he was doing behind the projector. That is the key. With digital, so much can go wrong and does and all too frequently we now have 3D setups in place for 2D projection

Yes and as mentioned above, we have the same teenagers who operate both the projector and the popcorn machine.
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post #24 of 51 Old 03-12-2012, 08:27 AM
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This is going to hurt smaller theaters which are independent. They won't be able to rent prints, because those won't be available for distribution. So, they must make the very expensive (relative to their budget) switch to new equipment, or go out of business.

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post #25 of 51 Old 03-12-2012, 10:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt_Stevens View Post

The best presentations in NYC I have seen the past two years have been prints. The worst... Digital. In each case, the print had a projectionist who knew what he was doing behind the projector. That is the key. With digital, so much can go wrong and does and all too frequently we now have 3D setups in place for 2D projection, which means dark picture that is unwatchabe. My movie watching has been greatly reduced. i now go maybe four times a year and only to IMAX or the Landmark in NYC where they have actual prints.

Even my beloved Ziegfeld has been ruined. The last three trips were all @ss because the picture was so dark.

In no way is a film print better than a digital one. By the time you watch a film print after about a week in its run it will look horrible compared to digital. Even on its first run it can't even begin to match digital.
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post #26 of 51 Old 03-12-2012, 12:07 PM
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The only problem I've had with the local "all digital" theater (8 auditoriums and in a location I would have never expected such a thing) is that sometimes the server doesn't start the film in time. I once sat for 15 minutes and finally got up and went to the concession stand and reported it. All the rest of the audience looked clueless about the delay. And once after a power outage the server started 20 minutes too early in the film when it restarted.
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post #27 of 51 Old 03-12-2012, 12:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IAM4UK View Post

This is going to hurt smaller theaters which are independent. They won't be able to rent prints, because those won't be available for distribution. So, they must make the very expensive (relative to their budget) switch to new equipment, or go out of business.

Happened in my town ( ~7K people) just recently to the local theater. I've read the cost to upgrade to digital equipment was a large part of why the owner decided to simply retire.

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post #28 of 51 Old 03-12-2012, 12:31 PM
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This is going to hurt smaller theaters which are independent. They won't be able to rent prints, because those won't be available for distribution. So, they must make the very expensive (relative to their budget) switch to new equipment, or go out of business.

Yeah sorry, but new technology replaces old it's been done like this for ages.
If they had a successful business model in the first place this wouldn't be an issue, at least a not a "going out of business" issue.

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post #29 of 51 Old 03-12-2012, 12:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thehun View Post

Agreed, a lot of people don't seem to grasp that unless you see those prints on the first show, you already seen a degraded presentation, which wasn't an exact copy to begin with, not to mention the extremely varied conditions of those projectors themselves. Those who thinks that digital robs them from the original experience of the film, you might wanna surrender to the fact that you may never really had one.

Agreed.

Before I had the capability of having front projection in my home, I loved the theater going experience. With the advent of BD, and 1080P, the presentation in my dedicated theatre room is vastly superior to the film projection I have seen in my local cinemas. It's not even close.

Art
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post #30 of 51 Old 03-12-2012, 07:29 PM
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I share what seems to be the consensus here that the shift of movie exhibitors from film to digital isn't a very big deal now and is going to become even less important as digital technology improves, as it most certainly will. Morpheo put it best, in post #21: "I'm tired of the 'vinyl is better' mentality." Me too!
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