City of Life and Death (SD) - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 30 Old 04-17-2012, 05:31 AM - Thread Starter
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wow in general, but this movie is a clear example of why BluRay is such a gigantic rip-off !

I always thought so, but you know, I kept thinking that it was mainly a matter of time and that eventually productions would catch up with the technology. Instead, I have no doubts that the vast majoirity of blu ray movies out there are just not in any significant way better than their SD versions. And I am talking both audio AND video.

Bluy ray technology is certainly "better" as we can see in some rare productions (Planet Earth is a good example), but that is 1% of what's out there. The rest simply does not offer a better experience than it's SD version, at least in my setup, this is just a fact.

And finally the fact that HD rentals and Blu Ray movies are so much more expensive is kind of sad, yet another indication of the greed that is suffocating our worlds
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post #2 of 30 Old 04-17-2012, 05:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by windwaves View Post

wow in general, but this movie is a clear example of why BluRay is such a gigantic rip-off !

I always thought so, but you know, I kept thinking that it was mainly a matter of time and that eventually productions would catch up with the technology. Instead, I have no doubts that the vast majoirity of blu ray movies out there are just not in any significant way better than their SD versions. And I am talking both audio AND video.

Bluy ray technology is certainly "better" as we can see in some rare productions (Planet Earth is a good example), but that is 1% of what's out there. The rest simply does not offer a better experience than it's SD version, at least in my setup, this is just a fact.

And finally the fact that HD rentals and Blu Ray movies are so much more expensive is kind of sad, yet another indication of the greed that is suffocating our worlds

Uhm...is this a joke?

I have many hundreds of Blu-Rays, many of which replaced my DVDs, and the leap in image quality/clarity/detail with the Blu-Rays just blows my mind. Not every Blu-Ray is as good as the next, but %100 of my Blu-Rays look obviously better than DVDs. I have to wonder about your set up if you have such a problem seeing the difference.
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post #3 of 30 Old 04-17-2012, 05:59 AM
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If you haven’t, you may want to visit THIS thread. I believe it would dispute your claim. I can see and hear a difference, so you may be right; it’s your system that is at fault.

Some of the reasons for poor transfer...

Some, but not all, of the Blu-rays ranked in the various tiers look as good as they possibly can on Blu-ray given limitations in the original photography and the director's intended visuals. We recognize films and videos are not all created with the same intent and quality, and this is why certain titles can never achieve a tier zero or tier one ranking for example, even given a perfect transfer from the best possible source. Rankings as low as tier four can still constitute a worthy Blu-ray release, as long as the Blu-ray is visually transparent to the best available source for a particular title. This last point is beyond the scope of the tier system and should be investigated on a title-to-title basis on your own.
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post #4 of 30 Old 04-17-2012, 07:07 AM
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Is this your Home Theater setup OP?


Keep calm and drive a Camaro
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post #5 of 30 Old 04-17-2012, 07:09 AM - Thread Starter
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Is this your Home Theater setup OP?


lol !
not quite
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post #6 of 30 Old 04-17-2012, 07:21 AM - Thread Starter
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you guys .... ok may be my ears and eyes are just going bad ... I have even experimented with Black Hawk Down of which I have BR and SD versions (Super bit and regular) both are just excellent, video and audio. No way though the BD "blows me away", no way.
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post #7 of 30 Old 04-17-2012, 07:31 AM - Thread Starter
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my pj btw is a Sony VW 1060 (1080p), I recently replaced the lamp. Denon 3810 with Cinema 5 amp (which also does not add a thing to SQ btw) and Atlantic Tech. speakers (their biggest system). Not a killer system at all but good enough I'd say.
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post #8 of 30 Old 04-17-2012, 08:24 AM
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Originally Posted by windwaves View Post

wow in general, but this movie is a clear example of why BluRay is such a gigantic rip-off !...............

So you are saying that you have both the SD as well as the BR and that the BR is not dramatically better? In these days, I will always buy the BR, if available, and not the SD, unless there is no other choice. The BR of this film is nothing less than awesome, but I can't compare it to the SD, because there is no point in buying it to see if your point is well taken or not. However, I have duplicated (i.e., bought) a lot of films that I have on SD to BR and there has always been a noticeable improvement. The one thing that SD will not have is lossless audio which is mostly standard on BRs. Your view is certainly in the distinct minority, but you are entitled to it, especially if you can not see or hear the difference.
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post #9 of 30 Old 04-17-2012, 09:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by windwaves View Post

my pj btw is a Sony VW 1060 (1080p), I recently replaced the lamp. Denon 3810 with Cinema 5 amp (which also does not add a thing to SQ btw) and Atlantic Tech. speakers (their biggest system). Not a killer system at all but good enough I'd say.

I strongly recommend you call in an ISF calibrator.
http://www.imagingscience.com/

There simply is NO WAY a 480i/lossy source can come close to 1080p/lossless AV.

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post #10 of 30 Old 04-17-2012, 09:55 AM
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Originally Posted by windwaves View Post

you guys .... ok may be my ears and eyes are just going bad ...

I can't believe the number of people that need/should wear glasses that don't. I started wearing over the counter reading glasses (+1.00) all the time a couple of years ago because everything looked fuzzy like it does after a few drinks of alcohol. My brother, who is 73 and refuses to wear glasses, has a HDTV and doesn't subscribe to any HD channels because he says he can't see the difference between SD and HD. Well, no sh*t! Vanity has no boundaries.


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my pj btw is a Sony VW Mercedes Benz 1060 (1080p)


Fixed it for ya.
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post #11 of 30 Old 04-17-2012, 10:40 AM - Thread Starter
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ok ok .. you are all a bunch of dreamers, but that's ok. Unless everytime you watch a movie you guys do an in depth analysis of the image , with sophisticated lens and seating 2 inches from the screen .....

If you are seating at a NORMAL distance, watching an average movie, the difference between SD and BR in my case is most often irrelevant (I might notice a difference in those cases, but not in terms of one better than the other, actually I debate that at times). Both sound and video.

Careful guys, I am not saying that HD is not better than SD. It absolutely is, WHEN the source is true HD (what that means I do not know). My vision is perfect actually, sorry to disappoint. Most of "ported" BR I think are simply crap jobs, another marketing trick to get those like you to buy again the same thing. Ah ah.
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post #12 of 30 Old 04-17-2012, 10:50 AM
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Sounds to me that you've found a way to save you some money!

I think I know what you mean, a little bit. Certain movies don't lend themselves to BR. Or at least, aren't worth the extra $$$. Even when I rent from Redbox, I don't always grab the BR, if it's some chick-flick rom-com.
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post #13 of 30 Old 04-17-2012, 11:03 AM - Thread Starter
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Sounds to me that you've found a way to save you some money!

I think I know what you mean, a little bit. Certain movies don't lend themselves to BR. Or at least, aren't worth the extra $$$. Even when I rent from Redbox, I don't always grab the BR, if it's some chick-flick rom-com.

for me it's the majority of movies ... I still pick up the BR copy though. It was not available for this movie so that is how I was reminded how in reality a well mastered/produced SD DVD can be as good as your average BR if not better. By the way, the audio on this DVD is amazing, one of the best I have ever enjoyed.
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post #14 of 30 Old 04-17-2012, 11:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Aliens View Post

I can't believe the number of people that need/should wear glasses that don't. I started wearing over the counter reading glasses (+1.00) all the time a couple of years ago because everything looked fuzzy like it does after a few drinks of alcohol.

windwaves....did you read this post closely?

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post #15 of 30 Old 04-17-2012, 11:40 AM - Thread Starter
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ok ok .. My vision is perfect actually, sorry to disappoint. Ah ah.

Oink, did you read this post carefully ?
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post #16 of 30 Old 04-17-2012, 12:00 PM
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Originally Posted by kristen9890 View Post

I never heard about this movie but it seems that it is thriller movie...

Not even close...

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...ity+life+death
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post #17 of 30 Old 04-17-2012, 12:57 PM
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Originally Posted by windwaves View Post

for me it's the majority of movies ... I still pick up the BR copy though. It was not available for this movie so that is how I was reminded how in reality a well mastered/produced SD DVD can be as good as your average BR if not better. By the way, the audio on this DVD is amazing, one of the best I have ever enjoyed.

It is your choice and money. Although I cannot understand why you would buy a BR copy of anything, given that the BR usually costs a few buck more and your previous observations about BR. As to City of Life and Death, it should not be that hard to find in BR:

http://www.amazon.com/City-Life-Deat...4692379&sr=1-1
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post #18 of 30 Old 04-17-2012, 10:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aliens View Post

I started wearing over the counter reading glasses (+1.00) all the time a couple of years ago because everything looked fuzzy like it does after a few drinks of alcohol.

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Originally Posted by oink View Post

windwaves....did you read this post closely?

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Originally Posted by windwaves View Post

Oink, did you read this post carefully ?

I ACTUALLY DID.
Unfortunately, you didn't...or you would have responded to Alien's point of the pitfalls of imbibing while watching a display.

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post #19 of 30 Old 04-18-2012, 04:59 AM - Thread Starter
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I ACTUALLY DID.
Unfortunately, you didn't...or you would have responded to Alien's point of the pitfalls of imbibing while watching a display.

that's unfortunate since evidently you still make zero sense. May be that is a natural consequence of being an AVS addict
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post #20 of 30 Old 04-18-2012, 06:00 AM
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Windwaves,

The thing is, instead of saying you don't seem to see much improvement with Blu-Ray in your system, you started a thread boldy declaring:

"wow in general, but this movie is a clear example of why BluRay is such a gigantic rip-off !"

....I have no doubts that the vast majoirity of blu ray movies out there are just not in any significant way better than their SD versions. And I am talking both audio AND video"


Which is pretty silly, the equivalent here of putting yourself on the dunking seat and handing everyone else balls to throw at the target. And continuing with "ok ok .. you are all a bunch of dreamers, but that's ok. Unless everytime you watch a movie you guys do an in depth analysis of the image , with sophisticated lens and seating 2 inches from the screen .....

If you are seating at a NORMAL distance, watching an average movie, the difference between SD and BR in my case is most often irrelevant"


...paints you as someone who is merely here to say ridiculous, ignorant things about Blu-Ray.

Many people here use front projection and "normal" viewing distances (e.g. those within THX or SMPTE recommendations) are well established as being sufficient to distinguish between SD and 1080p resolution.

Have you never even seen the MANY direct DVD vs Blu-Ray screen captures on this and other sites? You can mouse-over the image and watch the DVD movie image change to Blu-Ray (for many titles) and once you've looked at the Blu-Ray, the DVD looks like you need glasses, it's so ill-defined in comparison.

That is exactly what a great many of us experience. Once I've been watching Blu-Rays on my 1080p projector (JVC), putting up DVD is a shock.
It's like my glasses have fallen off and I'm trying to focus on the image. That's why so many people here, now that they are used to the clarity and detail of Blu-Ray, say they can't bother buying SD DVDs anymore - it's THAT big a difference.

It's just bizarre to read viewpoints like yours on Blu-Ray. For me and so many others Blu-Ray has been among the most significant movements forward in consumer home cinema we can remember. Even after all this time when I'm watching a stunning, huge but crystal-clear image in my home of my favorite movies, I feel like pinching myself...it's a dream come true.

I can only be thankful that viewpoints such as yours on Blu-Ray aren't prevalent enough to have stopped the format from making the inroads it has.
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post #21 of 30 Old 04-18-2012, 09:39 AM
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that's unfortunate since evidently you still make zero sense. May be that is a natural consequence of being an AVS addict

OK, whatever floats your boat....

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post #22 of 30 Old 04-18-2012, 11:25 AM
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Love these threads.

I honestly can't tell the difference with lossless audio (and yes, I have the equipment). I still think it's hype. HYPE! I am just kidding as I know many people think lossy sounds like crap, but I just can't tell the difference. All sounds close enough to me that you could play a lossy and lossless sample and I wouldn't be able to tell you which was which.

Picture Quality on the other hand....it's night and day.

City of Life and Death is a title I started streaming on Netflix (in SD) and the quality was horrible...not so much the picture but the subtitles were almost unreadable...I think they messed something up with the encode. Had to get the BD.
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post #23 of 30 Old 04-18-2012, 12:10 PM
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Originally Posted by windwaves View Post

And finally the fact that HD rentals and Blu Ray movies are so much more expensive is kind of sad, yet another indication of the greed that is suffocating our worlds

They're not that much more expensive, so stop characterizing them that way. Blu-rays in the store are often no more expensive than the same DVDs, especially if you know where to look. Heck, I bought my Blu-ray of 300, and it was LESS than the DVD I got two years earlier, and yes, the picture difference is noticeable with that movie.

At Redbox, it's 30 freaking cents. Or $2 to bump up in Netflix for the whole month. Hardly wallet busters. And don't give me "Well, it all adds up." Next time get the small fries at McDs instead of the jumbo and you'll have made up the difference.

Plus, you can't do 3D with DVDs. Okay, maybe you have no interest in that, but plenty of people do. And you can do far fewer discs with the extra capacity. A real benefit, IMO.

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post #24 of 30 Old 04-18-2012, 12:13 PM
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Love these threads.

I honestly can't tell the difference with lossless audio (and yes, I have the equipment). I still think it's hype. HYPE! I am just kidding as I know many people think lossy sounds like crap, but I just can't tell the difference. All sounds close enough to me that you could play a lossy and lossless sample and I wouldn't be able to tell you which was which.

I would suggest that you go out and listen to some properly setup home theater systems in your area and hear what you have been missing.
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post #25 of 30 Old 04-18-2012, 01:24 PM
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I honestly can't tell the difference with lossless audio (and yes, I have the equipment). I still think it's hype. HYPE! I am just kidding as I know many people think lossy sounds like crap, but I just can't tell the difference. All sounds close enough to me that you could play a lossy and lossless sample and I wouldn't be able to tell you which was which.

There is a clever little way of comparing lossy vs. lossless on BDs.
Every DTS-MA track has a "core" lossy DTS track.
Assuming one is bitstreaming DTS-MA to an AVR or Pre/pro for decoding, it is possible to listen to the "core" lossy audio by using a regular optical or coax cable for audio (instead of HDMI).
Multi-channel lossless cannot be bitstreamed thru any output except HDMI, and the player will default to the lossy "core" thru optical or coax.
Of course, that is only valid ONLY if someone KNOWS their hardware setups and understands how it works.

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post #26 of 30 Old 04-18-2012, 01:59 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post

Windwaves,

The thing is, instead of saying you don't seem to see much improvement with Blu-Ray in your system, you started a thread boldy declaring:

"wow in general, but this movie is a clear example of why BluRay is such a gigantic rip-off !"

....I have no doubts that the vast majoirity of blu ray movies out there are just not in any significant way better than their SD versions. And I am talking both audio AND video"


Which is pretty silly, the equivalent here of putting yourself on the dunking seat and handing everyone else balls to throw at the target. And continuing with "ok ok .. you are all a bunch of dreamers, but that's ok. Unless everytime you watch a movie you guys do an in depth analysis of the image , with sophisticated lens and seating 2 inches from the screen .....

If you are seating at a NORMAL distance, watching an average movie, the difference between SD and BR in my case is most often irrelevant"


...paints you as someone who is merely here to say ridiculous, ignorant things about Blu-Ray.

Many people here use front projection and "normal" viewing distances (e.g. those within THX or SMPTE recommendations) are well established as being sufficient to distinguish between SD and 1080p resolution.

Have you never even seen the MANY direct DVD vs Blu-Ray screen captures on this and other sites? You can mouse-over the image and watch the DVD movie image change to Blu-Ray (for many titles) and once you've looked at the Blu-Ray, the DVD looks like you need glasses, it's so ill-defined in comparison.

That is exactly what a great many of us experience. Once I've been watching Blu-Rays on my 1080p projector (JVC), putting up DVD is a shock.
It's like my glasses have fallen off and I'm trying to focus on the image. That's why so many people here, now that they are used to the clarity and detail of Blu-Ray, say they can't bother buying SD DVDs anymore - it's THAT big a difference.

It's just bizarre to read viewpoints like yours on Blu-Ray. For me and so many others Blu-Ray has been among the most significant movements forward in consumer home cinema we can remember. Even after all this time when I'm watching a stunning, huge but crystal-clear image in my home of my favorite movies, I feel like pinching myself...it's a dream come true.

I can only be thankful that viewpoints such as yours on Blu-Ray aren't prevalent enough to have stopped the format from making the inroads it has.

I simply disagree. Could this be the result of some weird things about my equipment ? I doubt it, but I don't exclude it. I don't contest your finding, I was really (ok, may be a bit strongly) making mine heard, in fact, to see what reactions I'd get.

And the reactions don't surprise me a bit.
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post #27 of 30 Old 04-18-2012, 02:08 PM
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I was really (ok, may be a bit strongly) making mine heard, in fact, to see what reactions I'd get.

And the reactions don't surprise me a bit.

They don't surprise me, either, if you say it in a way to bait people.

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post #28 of 30 Old 04-18-2012, 03:08 PM
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Originally Posted by fookoo_2010 View Post

I would suggest that you go out and listen to some properly setup home theater systems in your area and hear what you have been missing.

Done (and my setup is calibrated correctly, thank you very much) and I still can't. Yes, I can tell it sounds different, but it's not night-and-day better to me (as I said, I couldn't tell you if a track was lossy or lossless by listening).

And it's not like I'm against lossless or anything. I just can't really tell much of a difference other than they sound different (not better or worse to me...just different). And trust me....I was extremely disappointed that I don't notice a huge difference after spending the extra money on equipment so I could "appreciate" lossless sound. Maybe all those loud concerts when I was younger damaged my earballs. Curse you Metallica and Iron Maiden and various other metal bands!

Oink - thanks for the suggestion.
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post #29 of 30 Old 04-18-2012, 03:58 PM
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Originally Posted by mproper View Post

Done (and my setup is calibrated correctly, thank you very much) and I still can't. Yes, I can tell it sounds different, but it's not night-and-day better to me (as I said, I couldn't tell you if a track was lossy or lossless by listening).

And it's not like I'm against lossless or anything. I just can't really tell much of a difference other than they sound different (not better or worse to me...just different). And trust me....I was extremely disappointed that I don't notice a huge difference after spending the extra money on equipment so I could "appreciate" lossless sound. Maybe all those loud concerts when I was younger damaged my earballs. Curse you Metallica and Iron Maiden and various other metal bands!

Don't write yourself off too easily.

As I recall, the staff of one magazine (I forget whether it was Home Theater or Sound and Vision) visited the high-tech sound laboratories (I think it was Dolby...I could be wrong). Anyway, the listened to various codecs, and listened to DVD lossy vs full 24bit lossless, in just about the best conditions possible to hear the differences, and found themselves surprised at how hard it was to hear a difference.

I wish I could remember exactly which magazine and when (it was within the last few years).
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post #30 of 30 Old 04-18-2012, 04:06 PM
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^ Yeah, I've read a lot of stuff like that too, so I'm not overly concerned about it. Just more disappointed I can't really notice a difference. Just given how much the audiophiles go on and on about it, was expecting more, I suppose.

Not a big deal. Was just pointing out my opinion/experiences. Don't want to start a whole thing.
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