Something From Nothing: The Art of Rap - Page 2 - AVS Forum
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post #31 of 60 Old 05-01-2012, 02:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kilgore View Post

...also...

I have no problem with the title "The Art of Rap".

I DO have a problem with the "Something From Nothing" part of the title, especially since most rap and hip-hop use samples and beats that someone else created, so obviously did not come from "nothing". To say "something from nothing" is an insult to the creators of the original, and most certainly not an homage.

Something from nothing has far less to do with where their beats came from, and much more to do with personal struggles owing to racism, classicism, not having many before them "rapping".

And rap music in general doesn't use as many samples as you think. Just the music you've heard. The best, and purest rap is likely little heard by most people that frequent these forums.

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post #32 of 60 Old 05-01-2012, 02:51 PM
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Originally Posted by RobertR View Post

So we're left with something with no creative rhythmic or melodic content. What's left? "creative" prose that talks about "bitches and hos"?

Rap/hip-hop doesn’t take up any space on my music rack so I’m not an expert in the genre, but I do have a few on my iTunes account. To characterize all rap/hip-hop subject matter as dealing with hos and bitches is way too general. Lots of people from every ethnicity have problems with those type of lyrics. It isn’t surprising that a lot of whites can’t identify with the genre in its entirety, but that doesn’t negate it, IMO. Do you think the majority of rappers can identify with Conway Twitty or The Beach Boys? Rap/hip-hop is a culture that many people can’t identify with and that is okay. But I see no reason to degrade an entire genre because a few deliver a message in a way that is offensive to many people. Even then people can identify with it and that's why it sells. JMO. YMMV.
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post #33 of 60 Old 05-01-2012, 03:02 PM
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Originally Posted by lordcloud View Post

Not the same as ripping off, by using the beats as inspiration or even directly using it, to form a new genre of music.

Sounds like when I throw my wet gym shoes in in the dryer and turn it on.
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post #34 of 60 Old 05-01-2012, 03:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Aliens View Post

Do you think the majority of rappers can identify with Conway Twitty or The Beach Boys?

The majority of non-rappers can't, either.
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post #35 of 60 Old 05-01-2012, 03:13 PM
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"Rapture" by Blondie is a Rap song.

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post #36 of 60 Old 05-01-2012, 03:23 PM
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Originally Posted by rich3fan View Post

"Rapture" by Blondie is a Rap song.

Yeah, I liked them until they started putting that stuff out (the "disco" thing started even before that, with songs like "Heart of Glass" and "The Hardest Part").

I got completely turned off from Pink Floyd, which is even more incredible, when they started putting out dance music on "The Wall".
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post #37 of 60 Old 05-01-2012, 04:00 PM
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LOL. Music like Rap is like the "Old Fogy" test. "Damned noise, ain't worth nuthin,' what's gone wrong with music. I remember when..."

That's not to say whether it's good or not: just that new musical genres are always bemoaned by some contingent of older or conservative folks, and then those genres become the beloved standard for the next generation. There are already complaints from people who love rap/hip-hop about how the new stuff is crap and "ain't what it used to be."

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Originally Posted by RobertR View Post

That just adds to my problem with it. It seems that rappers:
Can't come up with their own rhythms;

Whoa. That betrays a real lack of acquaintance with rap music. One feature of much of rap music is taking music samples, cutting them up and placing them to original beats, or making new beats and rythms out of those samples. Rap has been just incredibly creative in this regard! Ever listen to the incredible density and texture of Public Enemy (to go back some years)?
I've done enough music to know just how amazing those tracks were in terms of technical/creativity/technique.

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Originally Posted by RobertR View Post

Don't have to bother with creating a melody, since they can't sing anyway.

Often new melodies are created by the re-sampling process.

BTW, many great songwriters didn't "have to come up with" their lyrics either, as others wrote them. That wouldn't mean their contribution to the end result of the music wasn't valuable.

Sometimes rapping does strike me as crap and "anyone can do it" stuff. Especially when it's a case of a famous rapper just brought in to rap a section in a pop song, to give it some street cred. But there's also a lot of very creative work done in the genre, like any genre.
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post #38 of 60 Old 05-01-2012, 04:13 PM
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Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post


BTW, many great songwriters didn't "have to come up with" their lyrics either, as others wrote them.

My point was that half of the equation needn't be worked on at all--by ANYBODY, since it's nonexistent, and these guys don't have the talent to express it anyway.
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post #39 of 60 Old 05-01-2012, 04:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Rammitinski View Post

Yeah, I liked them until they started putting that stuff out (the "disco" thing started even before that, with songs like "Heart of Glass" and "The Hardest Part").

I got completely turned off from Pink Floyd, which is even more incredible, when they started putting out dance music on "The Wall".

(Quote before the edit)
Pink Floyd??? In a rap music thread? Boy, that's a reach.

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post #40 of 60 Old 05-01-2012, 06:23 PM
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Originally Posted by RobertR View Post

That just adds to my problem with it. It seems that rappers:

Can't come up with their own rhythms;
Don't have to bother with creating a melody, since they can't sing anyway.

So we're left with something with no creative rhythmic or melodic content. What's left? "creative" prose that talks about "bitches and hos"?

Rap is an in between of talk and bark.
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post #41 of 60 Old 05-01-2012, 08:49 PM
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Saw this on thechive today.


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post #42 of 60 Old 05-02-2012, 01:13 AM
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rich - to explain the comment:

the connection with Rap to "dance music", and then Pink Floyd was with those two videos in post #22, that had people dancing to the songs (they were early Rap, though, and I admit I found them much more tolerable than the stuff that's out now. It was a lighter genre back then, and I have no problem with fun music for fun music's sake. I have plenty of that kind of stuff in my collection. It's just that nasty, troublemaking kind of Rap/Hip Hop I don't care for at all).

As far as "The Wall", a couple of songs clearly had blatant dance beats to them (Another Brick...Pt. 2, and Run Like Hell). I viewed that as an unforgivable sell out by what I considered the ultimate "head band" of our time, and the letdown was especially intensified by the fact that the album they had put out before that one was my absolute favorite of theirs.

When I used to hang out in drinking establishments with dance floors back then, it used to kill me whenever they'd play "Brick", and all the women would go "ooooh!", jump out of their seats, and rush up to the dance floor. The worst part was when they'd drag the sappy guys up there to dance with them. Made me want to puke up my beer.

But I digress.
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post #43 of 60 Old 05-02-2012, 02:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post

LOL. Music like Rap is like the "Old Fogy" test. "Damned noise, ain't worth nuthin,' what's gone wrong with music. I remember when..."

That's not to say whether it's good or not: just that new musical genres are always bemoaned by some contingent of older or conservative folks, and then those genres become the beloved standard for the next generation. There are already complaints from people who love rap/hip-hop about how the new stuff is crap and "ain't what it used to be."
Whoa. That betrays a real lack of acquaintance with rap music. One feature of much of rap music is taking music samples, cutting them up and placing them to original beats, or making new beats and rythms out of those samples. Rap has been just incredibly creative in this regard! Ever listen to the incredible density and texture of Public Enemy (to go back some years)?
I've done enough music to know just how amazing those tracks were in terms of technical/creativity/technique.

There is a great video on either Vinmeo or YouTube where Hank Shocklee talks at length (well over an hour actually) about the genesis of Public Enemy, their cultural objective with the group and the production techniques they created for the characteristic sound that the group pioneered. Search for "RBMA Hank Shocklee" and that should pull it up. Like I said its long but I just listed to it like a radio show, it's a lecture so little to watch.

There are also interesting lectures/talks in the same series featuring Ali Shaheed Muhammed (A Tribe Called Quest) and Maseo (De La Soul). The Shocklee on is a masterclass though.

Also equally interesting is an episode of "Unsung" that focuses on Whodini. One comes to find that the producer/music songwriter Larry Smith (who also did Beastie Boys & Run DMC) created incredible material in partnership with the lyricist/rapper Jalil. They were pioneering the bridges between Kraftwerk-era dance music and what later became today's hiphop. Their production work incredible, yet so compelling that as a music fan I really never thought about it consciously.

This stuff certainly belies the idea that rap music is a bunch of hoodlums who can't sing and hate women. One has to be really out of touch (or really gullible in swallowing the neo minstrel showi material in the popular media ) to think that.
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post #44 of 60 Old 05-02-2012, 06:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rammitinski View Post

rich - to explain the comment:

the connection with Rap to "dance music", and then Pink Floyd was with those two videos in post #22, that had people dancing to the songs (they were early Rap, though, and I admit I found them much more tolerable than the stuff that's out now. It was a lighter genre back then, and I have no problem with fun music for fun music's sake. I have plenty of that kind of stuff in my collection. It's just that nasty, troublemaking kind of Rap/Hip Hop I don't care for at all).

Gotchya. I didn't watch those videos. I think they call "troublemaking" type rap music "gangtsa rap". Blondie's "Rapture", was yes, early rap, and actually one of my favorites from them back then.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rammitinski View Post

As far as "The Wall", a couple of songs clearly had blatant dance beats to them (Another Brick...Pt. 2, and Run Like Hell). I viewed that as an unforgivable sell out by what I considered the ultimate "head band" of our time, and the letdown was especially intensified by the fact that the album they had put out before that one was my absolute favorite of theirs.

I consider that Roger Waters just being sarcastic/cinical towards society as a whole, and the music industry in particular. I think "The Wall", and "Animals" were examples of how Roger viewed society at the time.

Funny, when I watch my "Pulse" DVD, "Run Like Hell" is the song that makes me crank up the volume especially for the ending. Love that they ended their concert with that track.

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Originally Posted by Rammitinski View Post

When I used to hang out in drinking establishments with dance floors back then, it used to kill me whenever they'd play "Brick", and all the women would go "ooooh!", jump out of their seats, and rush up to the dance floor. The worst part was when they'd drag the sappy guys up there to dance with them. Made me want to puke up my beer.

Ha! I know EXACTLY what you're talking about. Up in Jersey back in the early 80's I hung out with friends at those types of places (no, they were NOT called discotheques ) also, and I pretty much had the same reaction. BUT, we were only there to pick up women.

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But I digress.

I call it reminiscing.

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post #45 of 60 Old 05-02-2012, 06:39 AM
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I love the music in Show Me What You Got, by Jay-Z. Also, great music to dance to!

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post #46 of 60 Old 05-02-2012, 06:58 AM
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Originally Posted by wizzack View Post

Saw this on thechive today.


It ain't nuttin to eff with!
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post #47 of 60 Old 05-02-2012, 09:22 AM
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Thanks Osamede, I'll check it out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Osamede View Post


Also equally interesting is an episode of "Unsung" that focuses on Whodini. One comes to find that the producer/music songwriter Larry Smith (who also did Beastie Boys & Run DMC) created incredible material in partnership with the lyricist/rapper Jalil. They were pioneering the bridges between Kraftwerk-era dance music and what later became today's hiphop. Their production work incredible, yet so compelling that as a music fan I really never thought about it consciously.

Yeah, Whodini's Mr. Magic's Wand and Haunted House Of Rock were some of my favorites back then. I still spin 'em on the ipod. Thomas Dolby produced one (or both) of those, as I remember. (And from around that era, though not rap per se, Zapp's "More Bounce To The Ounce," heavily sampled by rappers, remains for me the gold standard for sheer funk. I could listen to it looped all day).
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post #48 of 60 Old 05-02-2012, 09:43 AM
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Saw this on thechive today.

Epic

I LOVE MOVIES!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

 

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post #49 of 60 Old 05-02-2012, 01:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Aliens View Post

Considering the writers of the song, Bernard Edwards and Nile Rodgers of Chic threatened legal action, which resulted in a settlement with their being credited as co-writers, I'd say it was a rip-off. Obviously, they were not too happy about it but got over it and actually liked The Sugarhill Gangs version and considered it innovative. But I know what you're saying.

Ha! Yesterday evening, I just happened to see a classic rerun of Soul Train, which featured Chic (they were my favorite group as a kid). They were pure R&B, and I never even considered they helped fuel the rise of hip-hop. Niles Rodgers is awesome.

"But I didn't do it...!"
"I knew you'd say that"...*BLAM!*
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post #50 of 60 Old 05-02-2012, 06:29 PM
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Ha! Yesterday evening, I just happened to see a classic rerun of Soul Train, which featured Chic (they were my favorite group as a kid). They were pure R&B, and I never even considered they helped fuel the rise of hip-hop. Niles Rodgers is awesome.

Nile is also featured in that RBMA series. He talks about this matter there.

Interesting thing is that Nile didn't mind being sampled. He considers it an honour to be sampled, as he feels it is just a modern way of paying homage to those who inspired you. He just wanted to be credited and paid, was all. As he put it (I'm paraphrasing) "They didn't pay for the studio time, the producer, the engineer, the strings. We did. You can't just steal all that and cut us out. "

Apparently What really teed Chic off to go to court was that basically they had been shafted by their record company (Buddah) on royalties. Owner was a guy named Morrris Levy. Apparently when they researched to find out who was behind Tappers Delight, turned out the same guy was the bagman in the Sugarhill Records ownership trail. So he was doubly shafting them - and that put them on the warpath to get paid.

But he said he loved all the sampling from an artistic point of view. In fact he was amazed how Modjo was able to sample "Soup for one" and make that album cut into a hit. He liked it because he said he always felt he hadn't quite done what was possible with the song idea. So the sampling of it was basically another person taking it further.

Realky interesting stuff. But what caught my thoughts was that many musician are totally cool with the art form of sampling - they just want full credit though. Which is fair. Not surprising in a way, as musicians are quite generous artistically. The chain of influence and output is quite fluid for them and has always been. Sampling actually fits right into their mindset of both collaboration and homage.
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post #51 of 60 Old 05-02-2012, 07:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Aliens View Post

I love the music in Show Me What You Got, by Jay-Z. Also, great music to dance to!


6 bars of refrain = 16 seconds of music

You can dance to it
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post #52 of 60 Old 05-02-2012, 08:13 PM
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Originally Posted by thedeskE View Post

6 bars of refrain = 16 seconds of music

You can dance to it

More like hump.

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post #53 of 60 Old 05-02-2012, 08:27 PM
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More like hump.

Did somebody say hump?


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post #54 of 60 Old 05-03-2012, 05:04 AM
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Originally Posted by thedeskE View Post

6 bars of refrain = 16 seconds of music

You can dance to it

So call me simpleminded, I love it.

Now that I've had time to think about it, we probably should go back to the era where song lyrics such as THIS provided deep insight.

Then we have THIS guitar playing that provided the inspiration for the likes of Jimi Hendrix, Eric Clapton, Jimmy Page, and others.

Lets get down and boogie on the dance floor to those classics.

Both songs became #1 in the U.S.A. And I thought the rap/hip-hop artists had the market cornered on repetitive lyrics and beat.
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post #55 of 60 Old 05-04-2012, 05:52 AM
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So you give us 2 HH dumb ass songs to "prove" that oldie top hits had some bad apples? What, didn't have the balls to use "The Beatles" ? Top 40 songs's lyrics were never that deep witch is why they are popular as they are easy to remember for the masses, but at least those guys played real instruments. With rap you're lucky to understand half of it let alone remember it, but who cares it's about all the cool instruments being played by the best musicians one can find especially the drummer.

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post #56 of 60 Old 05-04-2012, 06:30 AM
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Originally Posted by thehun View Post

What, didn't have the balls to use "The Beatles" ?

Inspiring

Deep

Spellbinding lyrics

Nowhere in any of my posts have I stated that anyone should like or listen to rap/hip-hop or any of the music I have posted. I can understand the pushback on the genre. Heck, I’m not familiar with 99.9% of music, but on the occasion I hear something I like I download it. I’m not so close-minded that I will refuse to listen to any of it. Like movies, I consider music to be subjective. I think others didn’t respond to my sarcastic post because they got their one dig in and moved on. No problem, I can handle the occasional hit. But by addressing it again, you appear to have a problem with me liking the Jay-Z song. You want to put on your superior/smarter attitude and criticize what I like as if it’s below you. What music do you think I should be listening to? What can I listen to that will make you happy? Clearly, you don’t think music is subjective. If you find fault with it then no one should find it appealing and its important for you to continue to put it and anyone who likes it down. On occasion you post about coming from tyranny, but you can be as tyrannical as anyone. Very ironic.

Finally, do yourself a favor and put me on your ignore list.
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post #57 of 60 Old 05-04-2012, 10:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aliens View Post

Inspiring

Deep

Spellbinding lyrics

Nowhere in any of my posts have I stated that anyone should like or listen to rap/hip-hop or any of the music I have posted. I can understand the pushback on the genre. Heck, I'm not familiar with 99.9% of music, but on the occasion I hear something I like I download it. I'm not so close-minded that I will refuse to listen to any of it. Like movies, I consider music to be subjective. I think others didn't respond to my sarcastic post because they got their one dig in and moved on. No problem, I can handle the occasional hit. But by addressing it again, you appear to have a problem with me liking the Jay-Z song. You want to put on your superior/smarter attitude and criticize what I like as if it's below you. What music do you think I should be listening to? What can I listen to that will make you happy? Clearly, you don't think music is subjective. If you find fault with it then no one should find it appealing and its important for you to continue to put it and anyone who likes it down. On occasion you post about coming from tyranny, but you can be as tyrannical as anyone. Very ironic.

Finally, do yourself a favor and put me on your ignore list.

So who's not getting my sarcastic post now? I don't care or have a problem what you like or listen or don't like, and yes music is subjective, so is one's taste. You made your sarcastic point so did I , there was nothing more in my post so stop playing the victimized plebs.

The Hun
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post #59 of 60 Old 05-04-2012, 11:27 AM
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Woah.

http://www.tmz.com/2012/05/04/beasti...am-yauch-dead/

I saw that a few minutes ago. That is so young. F*cking cancer!
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post #60 of 60 Old 05-04-2012, 11:55 AM
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what a bummer.

The Beasties were the soundtrack to many good times.

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