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post #91 of 472 Old 06-14-2012, 08:35 PM
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Originally Posted by theanimala View Post

In the original alien movie, when they enter the foreign ship, don't they find the Engineer sitting in his chair with his rips blown out? Seems like he should have died there rather than on the floor of the shuttle. Doesn't anyone else find that annoying that they totally changed how/where he died? That was always a huge mystery to me in Alien, and this did not answer it.

Different Engineer, different ship, different planet.

Sorry, but that doesn't seem correct to me. Sam etching to the post before yours regarding there were many ships on the planet. In Alien they show the space ship half crashed on the planets surface. They purposely had the ship crash in this movie so it looked like that ship. For that reason it could not be a different plant, or a different ship on the plant that is totally buried.
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post #92 of 472 Old 06-14-2012, 08:59 PM
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Sorry, but that doesn't seem correct to me. Sam etching to the post before yours regarding there were many ships on the planet. In Alien they show the space ship half crashed on the planets surface. They purposely had the ship crash in this movie so it looked like that ship. For that reason it could not be a different plant, or a different ship on the plant that is totally buried.
Someone told you this is a prequel? eek.gif
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post #93 of 472 Old 06-14-2012, 09:09 PM
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For that reason it could not be a different plant, or a different ship on the plant that is totally buried.
You're joking, right?

The events in 'Alien' take place roughly 30 years after the events in 'Prometheus' (2120 vs 2093). The crew of the Nostromo discover the remains of an engineer with a small hole in his rib cage. The corpse is so old that one of the crew thinks it is fossilized (which isn't really possible, but makes the point about its age). So it is way WAY older than the engineer in 'Prometheus', who was no longer at the controls of his ship (let alone on his ship) and whose torso was ripped wide open (as opposed to a small hole). The filmmakers couldn't make it more obvious that they were not the same engineer.

As for the engineer's ship itself, in 'Alien' you don't see the bodies of Weyland and Ford littering the cockpit of the derelict ship (or even just their suits). Nor do you see the wreckage of the Prometheus littering the surroundings of the derelict, as you see in the new movie. Different ship, different wreck.

The fact that it is two different planets is explicit in the movies: 'Prometheus' takes place on LV-223 while 'Alien' and 'Aliens' take place on LV-426 (Acheron). It's on the screen, in bright letters.

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post #94 of 472 Old 06-14-2012, 09:14 PM
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

The fact that it is two different planets is explicit in the movies: 'Prometheus' takes place on LV-223 while 'Alien' and 'Aliens' take place on LV-426 (Acheron). It's on the screen, in bright letters.
Here's some more on it. http://alienanthology.wikia.com/wiki/LV-223
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post #95 of 472 Old 06-14-2012, 09:45 PM
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I believe it was a biological agent as well, but one that reacted differently depending on the person/being interacting with it. Good came from it in the engineers hands while the opposite came from it in the hands/presense of humans (and nothing when the android interacted with it).

Whatever it was that infected and persued those ancient holographic engineers wasn't good. The Captain may well have been correct about a bio-weapon gone bad.
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post #96 of 472 Old 06-14-2012, 11:29 PM
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Does tacking a "It was all just a dream. :doodly-doo-doodly-doo-doodly-doo:" ending really make the movie seem better to you? confused.gif
OK, I'm confused....what movie are you talking about?

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I suppose some people have a lower tolerance for the science being incorrect than others.
IF we are talking about Science Fiction and we are talking about movies or books, it goes without saying we are in the realm of FICTION.
Science Fiction is a contradiction in terms....what does that tell ya?wink.gif
I can't believe anyone would seriously want to debate or object to THE SCIENCE in Science Fiction....sheesh.

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The fact that it is two different planets is explicit in the movies: 'Prometheus' takes place on LV-223 while 'Alien' and 'Aliens' take place on LV-426 (Acheron). It's on the screen, in bright letters.
Yup, it sure is.smile.gif

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post #97 of 472 Old 06-15-2012, 03:42 AM
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I can't believe anyone would seriously want to debate or object to THE SCIENCE in Science Fiction....sheesh.

+1 x 12 parsecs. wink.gif
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post #98 of 472 Old 06-15-2012, 07:12 AM
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

You're joking, right?
The events in 'Alien' take place roughly 30 years after the events in 'Prometheus' (2120 vs 2093). The crew of the Nostromo discover the remains of an engineer with a small hole in his rib cage. The corpse is so old that one of the crew thinks it is fossilized (which isn't really possible, but makes the point about its age). So it is way WAY older than the engineer in 'Prometheus', who was no longer at the controls of his ship (let alone on his ship) and whose torso was ripped wide open (as opposed to a small hole). The filmmakers couldn't make it more obvious that they were not the same engineer.
As for the engineer's ship itself, in 'Alien' you don't see the bodies of Weyland and Ford littering the cockpit of the derelict ship (or even just their suits). Nor do you see the wreckage of the Prometheus littering the surroundings of the derelict, as you see in the new movie. Different ship, different wreck.
The fact that it is two different planets is explicit in the movies: 'Prometheus' takes place on LV-223 while 'Alien' and 'Aliens' take place on LV-426 (Acheron). It's on the screen, in bright letters.

Thank you for saving my typing fingers. smile.gif

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post #99 of 472 Old 06-15-2012, 07:40 AM
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Weren't there two engineers that made it into the room with the big head/urns prior to the third having his head decapitated (in the holographic images)? Yet they only found one of them in the cryo freezer.

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post #100 of 472 Old 06-15-2012, 08:42 AM
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Originally Posted by ballen420 View Post

Weren't there two engineers that made it into the room with the big head/urns prior to the third having his head decapitated (in the holographic images)? Yet they only found one of them in the cryo freezer.
There were also quite a few other engineers the 2 scientists found dead, which suggests there were more than 3 engineers on that ship.

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post #101 of 472 Old 06-15-2012, 09:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Daman S View Post

There were also quite a few other engineers the 2 scientists found dead, which suggests there were more than 3 engineers on that ship.

Yeah a big stack of them. Those hologram playback things aren't representative of the final resting place of every Engineer, to my knowledge. I expect that "base" was crawling with them.
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post #102 of 472 Old 06-15-2012, 09:33 AM
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Originally Posted by oink View Post

IF we are talking about Science Fiction and we are talking about movies or books, it goes without saying we are in the realm of FICTION.
Science Fiction is a contradiction in terms....what does that tell ya?wink.gif
I can't believe anyone would seriously want to debate or object to THE SCIENCE in Science Fiction....sheesh.
Yup, it sure is.smile.gif

Oink, did you read this link I posted earlier in the thread?"

http://www.racialicious.com/2009/12/21/and-we-shall-call-this-moffs-law/

It's quite appropriate here because your response seems to boil down to essentially the same "point" some people think they are making "Relax, it's just a movie, it's just fiction, why think
about it so much?"

Read the link and understand how that comes off. biggrin.gif

And on that note, because I see some people repeating the sentiment you've expressed...I feel a bit of a rant coming on...smile.gif

Merely waving the word "fiction" is hardly justification for ignoring whatever lapses of logic or believability stick out to you as a viewer. Take a movie that has someone lost in a forest, battling the elements, trying
to find a way to survive. The whole movie depicts all sorts of realistic problems the character can't seem to beat. Everyone wondering "how is he going to get out of this?" Then, suddenly, at the end, he simply happens upon
a nice hot meal, a car, a road and a map placed neatly for him. He eats, gets in the car, drives away, happy ending. Why would this produce such a huge groan of dissatisfaction from the audience? Because it's such a cheat. It's such
an in-your-face leap of logic. It manifestly feels like the screenwriter had simply lazily made a move to get the character out of a problem that would have otherwise taken logic, thought and work to get through.


The very issue of logic, both in terms of character, internal logic to a movie, and connection to the real world, are things that keep screenwriters up at night. Read any book on screen writing, especially interviews with screenwriters, and you''ll see just how much of screen writing is concerned with NOT making the type of bloopers that cause audiences to say "I don't buy it." Screen writers/producers/directors often struggle for months, even years trying to crack the "problems" of a story or screenplay, and those "problems" are inevitably finding pluaislble ways to progress the logic of what is happening. Scripts are often even completely abandoned because a writer can not do this, it's such a central issue to the craft.

Similarly, say you have a cop chase and catch a bad guy. Will the bad guy actually get off on some legal technical issue as the movie hints? No! Luckily in this cop movie the cop also shows up as the judge, in judge's gown, and he sentences
the bad guy as well. People will be jarred. They'll say "Wait a minute, cops aren't judges too. That's not the way the legal system works. That's not real." Here's a retort that would be ridiculous: "What are you complaining about? Did this movie ever claim to be a documentary? It's a FICTIONAL story." Why would that excuse not be accepted? Because we do, in fact, want to see coherence with the real world and to how people act in the real world. Unless a movie wants to pretend to be ENTIRELY disconnected from humans and the reality we know, which is quite rare, then movie makers are expected to keep some believability insofar as the movie references the real world. So if you have a "scientist" in a movie who acts nothing like a scientist - e.g. basing a scientific expedition or sceintific proposal on "faith" or acting in certain situations in a way utterly at odds with their being a scientist, that can legitimately jar the experience for the audience. Unless of course you advocate for simply turning
your brain and reasoning off during every movie. In which case, I again refer you to the rant above.

As for Prometheus and why would anyone give thought to the "science" in the film...it's because it's a SCIENCE fiction movie. (As opposed to science fantasy, e.g. Star Wars, where no attempt is made to associate with or extrapolate from our real world occurs). Prometheus has the pretense, though, of SCIENCE fiction - looking at real world questions and concerns and extrapolating from those to make a movie. Ridley Scott, for instance, has stated he doesn't seem to buy the current strictly evolutionary account of our origins. Scott: "Because as science reveals all -- if there ever will be "all" -- How far will it come close to coming up with a proper prognosis about our creation and where we began, how we began? And was it biological, by accident? I don't think so. Because to come from a dirt ball that's created [more than] four billion years [ago]… To actually have some little creature crawl out in the water called a salamander to where we are sitting here today -- that's a lot of evolution by accident."

His movie muses on another answer to our origins - doesn't posit it as the truth at all and uses it to make a piece of entertainment, but it does arise from his philosophical consideration and from his view of the science we have on the subject. If it did NOT have this connection to reality it wouldn't be the deep, thoughtful film he wants it to be. He's talked about how one of the things that he bemoans in fantasy and science fiction these days is that "anything goes" and people are not trying to keep without ground rules. He says "it’s up to you to not do anything foolish or silly or daft, or non-credible." And: "I try to keep these films in an area of reality, so it has to feel real."

Prometheus screen-writer Damon Lindelof has said in interviews that one of the things that attracts him to Ridley's Science Fiction films over the others (e.g. Star Trek) is the grounding in reality, the PLAUSIBILITY factor, the extrapolating from real world
to guess plausibly about the future - Blade Runner being a prime example in his and many people's book.

If any attachment to scientific reality were beside the point and unnecessary, why in the world would Scott have consulted so extensively with NASA scientists for the design of the Prometheus, and have brought in cosmologists and biologists to CONSULT THEM on the science as it related to his movie? Why bother if he could have made it have no connection with scientific plausibility and just waved the "hey guys, it's all just fiction" flag. It's because he knows that's a cop out. He wants SOME believability in the movie and the attempt is to operate within SOME level of scientific plausibility, coherence and logic.

Further, in responding to the idea that Prometheus leaves unanswered questions because they were too lazy to follow the logic through as scriptwriters, Damon Lindelof has stated that he and Ridley did indeed go through the logic of the film. And that there are "answers" to the apparent plot wholes. And that he would agree he should be condemned if that had not been the case. And that the point is to challenge the audience to THINK ABOUT and DISCUSS what they see in the movie, and try to figure things out themselves.

So why you would think that discussing the science in Prometheus is silliness is just bizarre. It's like the "don't think about it" approach to movie making and watching. No. We have brains. We like them stimultated. Damon Lindelof and Ridley Scott wanted to stimulate discussions like these "Why, how...?" It's not only fun and intellectually stimulating to discuss where the science in Prometheus strikes us as sound or unsound, the genre and the very effort of film-makers like Scott to take off from known science itself invites such discussions.

Yeesh.
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post #103 of 472 Old 06-15-2012, 10:39 AM
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Here's more on the engineers, btw does anyone else thinks Woody Harelson would make a great engineer in the sequel? biggrin.gif

http://www.comingsoon.net/news/movienews.php?id=91563

http://www.prometheusforum.net/discussion/2118
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post #104 of 472 Old 06-15-2012, 11:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Daman S View Post

There were also quite a few other engineers the 2 scientists found dead, which suggests there were more than 3 engineers on that ship.

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Yeah a big stack of them. Those hologram playback things aren't representative of the final resting place of every Engineer, to my knowledge. I expect that "base" was crawling with them.

Yeah, I recall the stack of them at the other door the two halfwits stumbled upon, but I was just thinking back on the initial hologram where I believe it was 3 of them racing towards the room with head/urns and I thought 2 made it in. You're led to believe that door never opened again and that the two that made it in may have been the only survivors. But now that I think back on it, it wasn't that room that lead to the bridge of the ship - it was where the probe had stopped that David found later. Holograms probably had nothing to do with that sole engineer in cryosleep.

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post #105 of 472 Old 06-15-2012, 11:33 AM
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Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post

Oink, did you read this link I posted earlier in the thread?"
http://www.racialicious.com/2009/12/21/and-we-shall-call-this-moffs-law/
It's quite appropriate here because your response seems to boil down to essentially the same "point" some people think they are making "Relax, it's just a movie, it's just fiction, why think
about it so much?"
Read the link and understand how that comes off. biggrin.gif
Just read the link (I have been on "black-out" before seeing the movie)...thanx for that.

Hard to disagree with his/her POV, although there a couple of points that come up short IMO.

At any rate, I gotta head out to Home Depot and return some crap they sold me.
Will continue this conversation later...smile.gif

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post #106 of 472 Old 06-15-2012, 12:02 PM
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Originally Posted by ballen420 View Post

the two halfwits stumbled upon
You mean the two preeminent doctors in their respective fields that were the clear choice to represent mankind billions of miles from earth in uncovering the origin of our species and another superior civilization? .... HOLD ON ... WHO body snatched our scientists and put two of the pirate extras from Pirates of the Caribbean: At Worlds End on the set?
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post #107 of 472 Old 06-15-2012, 12:11 PM
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You mean the two preeminent doctors in their respective fields that were the clear choice to represent mankind billions of miles from earth in uncovering the origin of our species and another superior civilization? .... HOLD ON ... WHO body snatched our scientists and put two of the pirate extras from Pirates of the Caribbean: At Worlds End on the set?

lol

...yet.... it was a private expedition, it wasn't meant to represent mankind, like an official, global, multi-countries sort of trip, no?
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post #108 of 472 Old 06-15-2012, 12:22 PM
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lol
...yet.... it was a private expedition, it wasn't meant to represent mankind, like an official, global, multi-countries sort of trip, no?

You would still expect the corporation paying a trillion dollars to ship these scientists out there to maybe vet the candidate pool a little.

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post #109 of 472 Old 06-15-2012, 12:42 PM
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You would still expect the corporation paying a trillion dollars to ship these scientists out there to maybe vet the candidate pool a little.

you have a point wink.gif
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post #110 of 472 Old 06-15-2012, 12:44 PM
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You would still expect the corporation paying a trillion dollars to ship these scientists out there to maybe vet the candidate pool a little.
Depends. Has the current generation of lazy douchey people in charge come full circle in the future? How do we know that's terraformed Mars in the hologram and not brawndo soaked Earth? Having all the money doesn't make you smarter or help you make smart choices.
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post #111 of 472 Old 06-15-2012, 01:09 PM
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Movies.com: You throw religion and spirituality into the equation for Prometheus, though, and it almost acts as a hand grenade. We had heard it was scripted that the Engineers were targeting our planet for destruction because we had crucified one of their representatives, and that Jesus Christ might have been an alien. Was that ever considered?

RS: We definitely did, and then we thought it was a little too on the nose. But if you look at it as an “our children are misbehaving down there” scenario, there are moments where it looks like we’ve gone out of control, running around with armor and skirts, which of course would be the Roman Empire. And they were given a long run. A thousand years before their disintegration actually started to happen. And you can say, “Lets’ send down one more of our emissaries to see if he can stop it. Guess what? They crucified him.

This is the quote I really enjoy from Ridley. I wish they could have made this point in the movie, or the possibility of this. The Horror for Shaw that Jesus could have been one of these brutal, violent engineers. Would have been a great scene. Maybe in the next one...

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post #112 of 472 Old 06-15-2012, 01:15 PM
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Depends. Has the current generation of lazy douchey people in charge come full circle in the future? How do we know that's terraformed Mars in the hologram and not brawndo soaked Earth? Having all the money doesn't make you smarter or help you make smart choices.

Yes, Idiocracy. It makes sense. Those douchebags were the best Earth had to offer.
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post #113 of 472 Old 06-15-2012, 02:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh Z View Post

You would still expect the corporation paying a trillion dollars to ship these scientists out there to maybe vet the candidate pool a little.

Their mission seem to be more for the show, then any importance for the actual mission. I guess the WY board had been suspicious if only David was on the expedition.
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post #114 of 472 Old 06-15-2012, 02:50 PM
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Too good not to share:
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David, in fact, pokes at every last inscrutable rune and smear of goo he can lay hands on. Honestly, I'm more surprised he doesn't just start stuffing things in his mouth like a toddler.
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post #115 of 472 Old 06-15-2012, 03:05 PM
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In regard to the science part.

I would agree that a degree of plausability as we know it is needed in any movie, it's not just science fiction movies (or whatever epithet you put on a movie) but all movies.
On the other hand from many sources like "Mythbusters" etc. it's pretty much BS for the most part in movies.
So where you draw the line is pretty much up to each viewer, some movies will be more obvious in their BS than others but nevertheless in the end most of it doesn't hold up to a test.

My own opinion is that I let a lot more slide in SciFi movies because in most cases the movie is about a world/time that we don't know much about.
With that said it doesn't mean I turn my brain off, it means I recognize the stupid science-y parts but I can chose wether I let it slide and enjoy the movie anyway.
Depending on the movie there may be one too many of these stupid science-y parts but again that limit is my own.
Of course the limit is much lower if it's something that deals with something in our present time and on mother earth.

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post #116 of 472 Old 06-15-2012, 04:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh Z View Post

You would still expect the corporation paying a trillion dollars to ship these scientists out there to maybe vet the candidate pool a little.

not really, how much could the company have left in their budget afters spending a trillion dollars on an inter galaxy space ship and sending it light years away.

probably just used some hobos they found living under a bridge.

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post #117 of 472 Old 06-15-2012, 05:42 PM
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Originally Posted by mr. wally View Post

not really, how much could the company have left in their budget afters spending a trillion dollars on an inter galaxy space ship and sending it light years away.
probably just used some hobos they found living under a bridge.

Indeed. Crew in Alien(s) movies are typically expendable.
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post #118 of 472 Old 06-15-2012, 06:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mr. wally View Post

not really, how much could the company have left in their budget afters spending a trillion dollars on an inter galaxy space ship and sending it light years away.
probably just used some hobos they found living under a bridge.
Dope-heads may be a norm in the future. Computer doing a lot of things for the humanity by then and people's behavior may change.

Remember, the crew members were briefed about the mission once the ship has reached LV233, not before leaving earth or even during recruiting process if there was one.
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post #119 of 472 Old 06-15-2012, 06:29 PM
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How many noticed the company logo and the snakelike creature? eek.gif
http://gamingshogun.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/weyland-industries-436x360.png
weyland-industries-436x360.png

http://thetwist03.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/prometheus-alien-snake.jpg
prometheus-alien-snake.jpg

Perhaps RS's attempt to portray the corporate as a snake... biggrin.gif
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post #120 of 472 Old 06-15-2012, 06:34 PM
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As for the black goo and its offspring, here's a fun link. http://snakelinksonic.tumblr.com/post/25024143190/skelisblazinrokz-evolution-prometheus-style
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