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post #151 of 178 Old 07-19-2012, 11:27 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Tulpa View Post

Well, if you're Bill Clinton.... no, wait, not going to go there. tongue.gif
Okay, I am going there. If you have a cigar, and it's just used for smoking, no phallic references, that's one thing. It's just a cigar. But if you take that cigar, and make reference to using it on a certain portion of the other gender's anatomy, what does that suggest...
On second thought, no, won't go there. biggrin.gif

LOL - an argument based solely on what you want it to say, not what it is. Guess you had to add all those caveats to make a round peg fit a square hole huh? biggrin.gif
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post #152 of 178 Old 07-19-2012, 11:39 AM
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Round peg, square hole... hmmmm. Sure you're not repressing something? tongue.gif


As for the two movies, Verhoeven really didn't need to put commercials and war propaganda in them if all he was after was a shoot-em-up. Both movies work fine (as a shoot-em-up) without them. But he put them in to say something (along with other references) and it's pretty clear he's aiming for something a little higher. And I think most people got he was commenting on consumer culture and war culture.

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post #153 of 178 Old 07-19-2012, 11:52 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Tulpa View Post

Round peg, square hole... hmmmm. Sure you're not repressing something? tongue.gif

Nope - I fully understand Tab A goes in Slot B tongue.gif
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As for the two movies, Verhoeven really didn't need to put commercials and war propaganda in them if all he was after was a shoot-em-up. Both movies work fine (as a shoot-em-up) without them. But he put them in to say something (along with other references) and it's pretty clear he's aiming for something a little higher. And I think most people got he was commenting on consumer culture and war culture.

sat·ire   

noun

1. the use of irony, sarcasm, ridicule, or the like, in exposing, denouncing, or deriding vice, folly, etc.

2. a literary composition, in verse or prose, in which human folly and vice are held up to scorn, derision, or ridicule.

3. a literary genre comprising such compositions.
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post #154 of 178 Old 07-19-2012, 11:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Lee Stewart View Post

sat·ire   

noun
1. the use of irony, sarcasm, ridicule, or the like, in exposing, denouncing, or deriding vice, folly, etc.

2. a literary composition, in verse or prose, in which human folly and vice are held up to scorn, derision, or ridicule.
3. a literary genre comprising such compositions.

Yeah, he was making satire.

In Robocop, the commercials often featured the Pontiac SUX, a massive, look-at-me, superpowered car, displayed as towering over a city (complete with a Godzilla stand-in admiring it.) And in the film, the bad guys drove those. Kind of satirical to me, holding up a mirror to the consumer culture that was rampant in the 80s (and onward.)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fl8mQhxhE_Q

It goes back to your statement of:
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I liked STARSHIP TROOPERS just as I liked PV's other Sc-Fi satire - ROBOCOP. They are both mindless entertainment - no thinking or pondering involved.

If mindless entertainment was all that either film was, he wouldn't have bothered with the satirical stuff. But the satirical stuff is there if you want to look a little deeper. And I think any reasonable person would see the satire for what it is and what it is saying.

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post #155 of 178 Old 07-19-2012, 12:07 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Tulpa View Post

Yeah, he was making satire.
In Robocop, the commercials often featured the Pontiac SUX, a massive, look-at-me, superpowered car, displayed as towering over a city (complete with a Godzilla stand-in admiring it.) And in the film, the bad guys drove those. Kind of satirical to me, holding up a mirror to the consumer culture that was rampant in the 80s (and onward.)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fl8mQhxhE_Q
It goes back to your statement of:
If mindless entertainment was all that either film was, he wouldn't have bothered with the satirical stuff. But the satirical stuff is there if you want to look a little deeper. And I think any reasonable person would see the satire for what it is and what it is saying.

Or . . .

He wanted to turn ROBOCOP into a satire just so people wouldn't take it seriously - or ponder too much. That's why the ads were so over-the-top.
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post #156 of 178 Old 07-19-2012, 12:09 PM
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That's possible, too. Although comedy (of which satire is a subtle form) is one of the most effective ways to get a message across. Sugarcoating the pill, so to speak. Ask Jon Stewart or Stephen Colbert. Those two DEFINITELY have something to say. smile.gif

I think it was George Benard Shaw who said, "Get them laughing, and then pour the medicine down their throats."

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post #157 of 178 Old 07-19-2012, 12:24 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Tulpa View Post

That's possible, too. Although comedy (of which satire is a subtle form) is one of the most effective ways to get a message across. Sugarcoating the pill, so to speak. Ask Jon Stewart or Stephen Colbert. Those two DEFINITELY have something to say. smile.gif
I think it was George Benard Shaw who said, "Get them laughing, and then pour the medicine down their throats."

Comedy has to be done en clair. You can't blunt the edge of wit or the point of satire with obscurity. Try to imagine a famous witty saying that is not immediately clear.

James Thurber
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post #158 of 178 Old 07-19-2012, 12:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Lee Stewart View Post

Or . . .
He wanted to turn ROBOCOP into a satire just so people wouldn't take it seriously - or ponder too much.

Sure, because that's every director's goal. Who wants to be taken seriously? That's so.... elitist. tongue.gif
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post #159 of 178 Old 07-19-2012, 12:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Lee Stewart View Post

Comedy has to be done en clair. You can't blunt the edge of wit or the point of satire with obscurity. Try to imagine a famous witty saying that is not immediately clear.
James Thurber

And I don't think Verhoeven was being obscure in either film.

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post #160 of 178 Old 07-19-2012, 12:29 PM
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This conversation is going nowhere.
It is becoming increasingly difficult to remain civil when Gary continues to issue these insults upon Members, while he uses this thread as a forum for his delusions.
Maybe it's time to lock this down...

No, no, no. Not while we're winning by a rhetorical landslide. I want everyone possible to be able to see this movie and read this thread. It's quite illuminating, don't you think? wink.gif
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post #161 of 178 Old 07-19-2012, 06:03 PM
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No, no, no. Not while we're winning by a rhetorical landslide. I want everyone possible to be able to see this movie and read this thread. It's quite illuminating, don't you think? wink.gif
You're right, it is "illuminating."
But, after awhile, I get tired of arguing with people who either refuse, or are not...uhhh....equiped, to recognize they have lost the war.
I do not suffer some people easily....I got better things to do.wink.gif

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post #162 of 178 Old 07-19-2012, 07:50 PM
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I can't wait... I love this movie! Bring on the new one!!!!!

"Me Personally, I want to slay the dragon"
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post #163 of 178 Old 07-19-2012, 08:24 PM
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But I did not lose anything. I made unrefuted arguments in posts #139 (archiguy) and #150 (Josh Z). You oink, I figure for damaged goods, based on your assertion that you were conscripted.

I still rate this film as one of Verhoeven's worst. In a career that includes such gems as Showgirls, that is saying something very negative.

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post #164 of 178 Old 07-19-2012, 11:20 PM
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But I did not lose anything. I made unrefuted arguments in posts #139 (archiguy) and #150 (Josh Z). You oink, I figure for damaged goods, based on your assertion that you were conscripted.
I still rate this film as one of Verhoeven's worst. In a career that includes such gems as Showgirls, that is saying something very negative.
How many times do I have to tell you?
I would be happy to discuss this, WITHOUT MODERATION, on a neutral site (should you suggest one).
Otherwise, I can't go further in this conversation......

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post #165 of 178 Old 07-20-2012, 05:45 AM
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But I did not lose anything. I made unrefuted arguments in posts #139 (archiguy) and #150 (Josh Z). You oink, I figure for damaged goods, based on your assertion that you were conscripted.
I still rate this film as one of Verhoeven's worst. In a career that includes such gems as Showgirls, that is saying something very negative.

I had no idea the term "unrefuted" could be so.... elastic. tongue.gif

Whatever. Again, my advice is simple: See this movie. Make up your own mind about whether or not it's brilliant satire as nearly all of us here who have seen it claim it to be. If you live in Gary's world, you may not see it (or more accurately, won't want to), but that doesn't mean it's not there front and center, and that it's a message that needs to be pounded home lest we end up like "The Federation" - a quasi-fascist society whose militaristic leaders bribe potential cannon fodder with promises of the benefits of citizenship. If that's not parody, lampooning, and satire - honestly, I don't know what is.

But to lump this movie in with 'Showgirls'... really now, that's just being mean. Even Orsen Wells made a turkey or two (a guy's gotta' eat, especially him), but that didn't take away from the genius that was "Citizen Kane".
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post #166 of 178 Old 07-20-2012, 07:04 AM
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I had no idea the term "unrefuted" could be so.... elastic. tongue.gif

Funny how unrefuted is elastic, but his definition of "satire" is so rigid.

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post #167 of 178 Old 07-20-2012, 08:57 AM
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As one could tell from the tone of my recent posts, this whole discussion has grown silly. Part of me is still hoping Gary is having a private joke at our expense. Why would he buy a film and watch it multiple times if he hates it? Too much free time and disposable income? "Vietnam was my war and I fought it in the Coast Guard does kinda sound satiric, doesn't it? Protecting our shores from the Viet Cong navy...might make a good movie, maybe Adam Sandler in the lead role...wink.gif

"There is no truth. There's just what you believe."
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post #168 of 178 Old 07-20-2012, 08:59 AM
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Is anyone here a barista? If so, I would like to thank you for your service.
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post #169 of 178 Old 07-20-2012, 10:01 AM
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Is anyone here a barista? If so, I would like to thank you for your service.
Well done....biggrin.gif

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post #170 of 178 Old 07-20-2012, 11:00 AM
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I did not miss a thing. In fact, you are wrong about this. The first mention of the "bug atrocity" occurs in DVD Chapter 2 time index 3:30. That is when it mentions that Mormon colonists have been slaughtered by Bugs. But it does not say that we colonized a Bug world, nor does it say that Bugs invaded a human world. It's that concept of causality again - and none is stated or implied anywhere in this movie.

You will also find in DVD Chapter 5, time index 4:45, a silly newscast that questions whether we are being invaded by the bugs, or we are intruding in Bug space. But there is no factual information to back up the "Live and let live" quote - absolutely NONE.

Let me get this straight, Gary. You find two scenes in the movie that state that humans had intruded into and colonized Bug territory, and you're using this as evidence that the movie never says humans intruded into or colonized Bug territory?

Seriously, WTF, Gary?
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Therefore when a person such as you projects your own anti-military prejudices into the story, it is very revealling.

You have the DVD. Turn on the audio commentary during these two scenes. See what Verhoeven says they mean, since you are so intent on denying their obvious purpose.
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Again, you are factually in error in what you say. The discussion of elected civilian authority is entirely in the book version of ST. In the movie ST version, the "Sky Marshalls" ARE the only government there is. The uniforms and swagger sticks and jackboots are all the almost exact images of the Nazi's whoom I do not doubt, still appear in Verhoeven's nightmares. The mention of the right to vote that a citizen earns in the movie version is a failure of continuity, because when the government changes after the initial failed invasion of Klendathu, one Sky Marshall succeeds another with no election.

How do you know there was no election? Where's your evidence of this?
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I believe I am quite logical and calm about this.

You may think that's the tone you're setting, but to the rest of us, you come across like Howard Beale: "I'M MAD AS HELL, AND I'M NOT GOING TO TAKE IT ANYMORE!!!"

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post #171 of 178 Old 07-20-2012, 11:03 AM
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But there is no guarantee that what you find was the directors intention. It may just be something YOU found because of your own opinions on the subject.!

How is this different than any other work of art in that respect?

In this case, we can actually guarantee that what we found was the director's intention. In the commentary over the movie, the director says (paraphrasing, don't have the disc in front of me): "I hate Fascism. Of course this movie is a satire of Fascism. Fascism is bad bad bad bad bad. I don't know how much more clear I could possibly be about that."

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post #172 of 178 Old 07-20-2012, 11:55 AM
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The thing abut this thread that has left me shaking my head in wonderment is how so much emotion could be generated by posters on both sides of the political spectrum about a film that is very entertaining but, to me at least, lightweight and insubstantial. Whey anybody would either extol it for its perceived political message or savage it for the same reason escapes me. Maybe there is a subtle political message there I have never seen despite multiple viewings. If so, though, that seems to me to be a good thing.smile.gif
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post #173 of 178 Old 07-20-2012, 12:15 PM
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As I have said many times, I don't like the movie. I like the book. I don't like many people's attitudes about the US Armed Forces as expressed in this thread, but this is a free country and a movie forum is not the place to debate such a topic.

I will buy that Verhoeven thought he was making a clever satire of Facism. He's entitled, since he personally observed Nazi atrocities. My problem is that he picked a book I very much admire to base such a crappy movie on. To leave out the philosophical justification for the Federation completely changes the work, while a good adaption retains the flavor of the original.

lonwolf615, the US Coast Guard is a relatively small organization, in fact you will find universities that are larger. But relative to our size, the USCG had a higher percentage of combatives deployed in Vietnam than any armed service including the USMC and the US Army. My specific job was a LORAN-D transmitter tech. LORAN-D was a electronic aid to navigation that was dropped into the jungle in a number of containers, including diesel generators and racks of timer and transmitter gear - which in the era I am talking about, still involved vacuum tubes. This was in effect a portable version of the LORAN-C navigation system. The purpose was to guide the B-52's and other US aircraft making precision attacks on targets in North Vietnam, Cambodia, and Thailand.

The USCG also deployed a number of tactical river boats (we did not use the "SWIFT Boat" terminology). Finally we had a role in reinforcing South Vietnamese coastal defense, primarily anti-submarine warfare, and we regularly found Russian, Chinese, and North Korean subs in the combat area.

The bottom line is that if you were in the USCG during this particular war, it was over 3 times as likely that you would see combat than a US Marine or US Army soldier. Still and all, there were not very many of us over there compared to the other armed services. Perhaps you would think about what I just said before belittling the Service of another.

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post #174 of 178 Old 07-20-2012, 01:13 PM
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I will buy that Verhoeven thought he was making a clever satire of Facism.

So you finally admit that it is a satire. That was pretty much a big chunk of the issue people had with you. Not a good way to present your side of an argument.

BTW, my dad was marine in Vietnam. Saw actual combat as a door gunner in an H-34. As in, had rockets and bullets shot at him while he was doing the same. He saw Starship Troopers and thought it was a pretty good movie. I asked him the other day about what he thought the movie had to say about being in a war, and he was, "Yeah, sometimes it felt like we were just dropped in a meat grinder. I guess it depended on who called the shots that day." He wasn't a conscript either. Joined the Corps out of high school when the war was escalating in 1968. He knew full well what he was going over there to do.

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post #175 of 178 Old 07-20-2012, 01:48 PM
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So you finally admit that it is a satire.

No he didn't. He said, " I will buy that Verhoeven thought he was making a clever satire," he didn't say HE thought it was a satire.
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post #176 of 178 Old 07-20-2012, 02:02 PM
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Good point. Maybe he's in consultation with a lawyer on how to argue over the Interwebz. tongue.gif

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post #177 of 178 Old 07-20-2012, 02:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Gary McCoy View Post

As I have said many times, I don't like the movie. I like the book. I don't like many people's attitudes about the US Armed Forces as expressed in this thread, but this is a free country and a movie forum is not the place to debate such a topic.

I don't know if you are being a troll or just obtuse about this. No one has said anything or expressed attitudes about the US Armed Forces. The only comments I recall have to do with the government in using the Armed Forces. The only other thing that has been said is about the film being a satire which you are continuing to deny.

Jerry. Just remember. Its not a lie . . . if you believe it. GC
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post #178 of 178 Old 07-20-2012, 05:21 PM
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No one has said anything or expressed attitudes about the US Armed Forces.
Only him....and the voices in his head.biggrin.gif

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