The ending of The Dark Knight Rises - WARNING: SPOILERS - DO NOT READ IF YOU HAVE NOT SEEN YET - Page 5 - AVS Forum
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post #121 of 145 Old 08-06-2012, 03:52 PM
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Originally Posted by daryl zero View Post

Saw this posted on another site:
http://www.comicbookmovie.com/news/?a=64971

I actually read all 99 of his complaints and he does make some valid points. Seems as though a lot of us enjoyed BB and TDK so much that we overlooked the things mentioned in that guys blog and just accepted the movie as is. People may give him hard time for his review but I think he was so critical was because he was passionate about the series and wanted TDKR to be polished and it wasn't.

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post #122 of 145 Old 08-06-2012, 10:19 PM
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Sure. What are you not sure about?

Some of the points made in the article are style criticisms. I'll stick to the plot problems I have using the article's questions:

http://www.comicbookmovie.com/news/?a=64971:

20. Bane seems to have A LOT of suicidal followers throughout the film. It can be explained away as them being League of Shadows members. The only problem with this is The League of Shadows took a huge hit to their ranks in the first film. Even assuming that after Raz's death Talia took over and rebuilt their army was far too large and filled with far too many suicidal members.

21. One of Banes suicidal followers is given a blood transfusion from a doctor on a plane Bane is trying to kidnap to fake this guys death. This wouldn't fool any forensics team into ID-ing the dead body from a plane crash.

31. After the Wall Street scene all of the cops begin chasing Batman and letting the terrorists go. This wouldn't be the case and makes the police "dumb" just so Bane can escape. They showed close to a hundred cop cars filling the streets coming from both sides to trap him in. It is ridiculous to believe that they couldn't spare 2-3 to track down the other terrorists.

34. During the fight scene with Bane he uses some crappy firework crap on Bane and then turns out the lights. Later in the movie he uses a mini batarang laced with some sort of knockout agent. Why didn't he use something on his belt a little more powerful during the fight scene with Bane like that? If he has more powerful objects on his utility bet why not try and use them?

36. Where did Bane/Talia get the knowledge regarding the secret R&D facility that Lucius ran? We see a scene of Lucius taking Talia to the reactor at one point in the film so it is plausible that they knew where to find the reactor but the knowledge of the secret applied sciences division and all the weaponry it contains is something that seems like Talia and Bane "magically" knew.

38. Commissioner Gordon near death in a hospital bed can barely get out of bed manages to ambush not one but two members of the League of Shadows, killing them both, with little effort. From this point on in the film he suffers no effects from his injuries.

Not to mention that Talia stabbed Batman and twisted the knife several times. After Selina kills Bane, suddenly Batman has no problem at all.

41. The doctor who turned the reactor into a bomb is implied to be the only person to stop it and really know how it's going to work. He tells Bane, in the presence of Lucius Fox and Miranda, that the bomb could decay over time and be non-operational. Despite this Fox and Miranda later in the film magically know that the bomb is going to decay and explode without studying the bomb which is kept on transports and constantly on the move.

47. Bruce Wayne could barely walk without his robo-legs in the beginning of the movie from cartilage wearing out. This isn't something that heals all by itself. After he is stripped of his gear and thrown into the prison he seemingly has no troubles walking after a couple months of recovery. We are shown his robo-legs were taken when he is doing the exercises in shorts later in the prison scenes.

49. Several attempts to leave the pit result in Bruce Wayne falling a significant distance with a rope tied around him so he doesn't fall to his death. When the rope reaches its maximum length on the way down and snaps him to a stop before the ground it would cause significant internal damage and/or broken ribs.

52. Batman escapes from a prison in the middle east. His estate had been totally wiped out in a previous point in the film and his car is even repossessed yet somehow he makes it from the middle east back to America without any ID or money within a few days despite most of his contacts stuck in Gotham under siege.

53. All bridges except one into the city were destroyed and it is the middle of winter yet somehow Bruce Wayne is able to slip back into Gotham seemingly undetected.

55. Shortly after slipping back into the city Bruce knows exactly where to find Selina Kyle and is waiting for her on the street.

59. Gordon and a few other people exiled to death to walk across the river but Batman wearing a 50 lb bat suit has no problem walking on the ice.

61. Batman trying to save a city from a nuclear device and his friends from imminent death has time to scale a bridge and paint the symbol of a bat with some sort of flammable material to announce he is back in town for everyone to see.

62. Oh, and while he was so busy drawing that symbol he got John Blake's partner as well as a few other officers killed by Christopher Judge and almost got John executed himself.

63. Knowing Batman was back in town and Miranda/Talia wanted to see Batman fail and suffer, why didn't she set off the nuke the moment he lights up the big giant bat symbol on the bridge? The whole city would have seen the bat symbol and it would have been the greatest point in months of their hopeful release, it would have been the highest point for Batman's hope since he got out of the pit. This should have been the point that Talia/Bane set off the bomb the absolute highest point of everyone's hope was at this moment ready for them to crush.

64. Convicts armed with assault rifles decide to charge head first into groups of policeman with only pistols and billy clubs. A lot more cops should have been killed on the initial charge.

65. Oh yeah, and despite these cops being trapped down in the sewers for months, they were surprisingly clean shaven. Like Batman they must have had a lot of time between their escape and their next move and stopped at home to freshen up before the final battle.

66. Also about the cops, after spending several months in the sewer not seeing their families or really having the chance/nutrients to keep physically fit they are more than ready to go charging head first into the convicts who are armed better than they are.

67. Another thing about the cops. Bane and his crew were hunting down cops on the surface like dogs. We are given this information several times. If their goal is to hunt down and eradicate the cops and exile them to death to walk across the ice then why the hell or they feeding and giving the cops down in the sewers supplies for MONTHS!?!

68. What was the point of the second fight scene between Batman and Bane? To find the trigger? ?? Why not just have Batman be the one to put the transmitter on the transport with the nuke, then take care of the nuke? Why did he need to go fight Bane in hand-to-hand combat? Batman's actions are nonsensical at this point in the film. Lets fly the Bat Plane to destroy the Tumblers so the police can charge Braveheart style into the prisoners with machine guns while we park the Bat Plane and go fight Bane on the steps of city hall in hand-to-hand combat scene that doesn't matter because we need to get back to the Bat Plane and chase down the bomb anyways?

69. Also, why the hell did he only destroy the one tumbler with the Bat Plane before the Braveheart charge? Because it was the only one that was pointing a canon at the police? That was a dumb cop out considering that Talia then uses it to flee the scene and protect the bomb with one. Also, why the hell was only just one of the Tumblers threatening to blow up the police?

71. The weaponized reactor came equipped with a time device that was greater than 99% accurate in determining the exact time it would take before the weapon would decay to the point that it would explode despite the fact the doctor who weaponized the reactor was unsure it would blow after that point anyways.

72. Speaking of which, how did seemingly every character know the precise time this bomb was going to detonate when nobody had even seen the bomb for months except when Gordon got into the back of the truck?

75. Gordon manages to survive riding in the back of the truck with the bomb after the truck crashes but Talia doesn't. Gordon would have been flung hard enough around in the back of that truck to have sustained serious injury.

89. Bane character issue - The entire film Bane is devoted to making people suffer, specifically he wants to make Batman/Wayne suffer as well. Yet at the very end of the film he wants to take the easy way out and blow off Batman's head with a shotgun. This leaves him wide open for Catwoman to come in and blow him away with a rocket from the batpod.

93. Batman doesn't like guns or killing, we have this driven into our heads in TDK. Despite this he spends the last ten minutes of the film flying around shooting everything in sight including missile after missile to kill the driver and Talia in the nuke transport. Also, what was the point with the bow and arrow other than to scare Selina?

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post #123 of 145 Old 08-07-2012, 01:21 AM
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Originally Posted by daryl zero View Post

Some of the points made in the article are style criticisms. I'll stick to the plot problems I have using the article's questions:
http://www.comicbookmovie.com/news/?a=64971:
20. Bane seems to have A LOT of suicidal followers throughout the film. It can be explained away as them being League of Shadows members. The only problem with this is The League of Shadows took a huge hit to their ranks in the first film. Even assuming that after Raz's death Talia took over and rebuilt their army was far too large and filled with far too many suicidal members.
Why does it have to be explained as LOS members? No problem if you don't.
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21. One of Banes suicidal followers is given a blood transfusion from a doctor on a plane Bane is trying to kidnap to fake this guys death. This wouldn't fool any forensics team into ID-ing the dead body from a plane crash.
Yeah this was confusing. Felt like there were scenes missing to explain the transfusion.
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31. After the Wall Street scene all of the cops begin chasing Batman and letting the terrorists go. This wouldn't be the case and makes the police "dumb" just so Bane can escape. They showed close to a hundred cop cars filling the streets coming from both sides to trap him in. It is ridiculous to believe that they couldn't spare 2-3 to track down the other terrorists.
If you have a chance to cash a billion dollar check or retrieve a twenty dollar bill, how would you allocate your resources? I agree it's ridiculous not to spare a few, but we don't really know if that was the case. There could have been a few still chasing the terrorists and they still got away.
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34. During the fight scene with Bane he uses some crappy firework crap on Bane and then turns out the lights. Later in the movie he uses a mini batarang laced with some sort of knockout agent. Why didn't he use something on his belt a little more powerful during the fight scene with Bane like that? If he has more powerful objects on his utility bet why not try and use them?
Do we not learn from our mstakes? How do you know he always had them and not used it?
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36. Where did Bane/Talia get the knowledge regarding the secret R&D facility that Lucius ran? We see a scene of Lucius taking Talia to the reactor at one point in the film so it is plausible that they knew where to find the reactor but the knowledge of the secret applied sciences division and all the weaponry it contains is something that seems like Talia and Bane "magically" knew.
Process of elimination. Wayne Foundation had many properties. As the fortunes of Wayne Foundation dwindled, possible location of the secret R&D facility was deduced.
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38. Commissioner Gordon near death in a hospital bed can barely get out of bed manages to ambush not one but two members of the League of Shadows, killing them both, with little effort. From this point on in the film he suffers no effects from his injuries.
Not to mention that Talia stabbed Batman and twisted the knife several times. After Selina kills Bane, suddenly Batman has no problem at all.
One does not have to be "near death" to appear barely able to get out of bed. Do we need have close up shot of Gordon wincing in pain every time he moves?
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41. The doctor who turned the reactor into a bomb is implied to be the only person to stop it and really know how it's going to work. He tells Bane, in the presence of Lucius Fox and Miranda, that the bomb could decay over time and be non-operational. Despite this Fox and Miranda later in the film magically know that the bomb is going to decay and explode without studying the bomb which is kept on transports and constantly on the move.
Fox and Miranda does not "magically know". Does anyone ever "know" anything with absolute certainty? Of course not. We do have to act, however, based on best possible information we have at our disposal.
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47. Bruce Wayne could barely walk without his robo-legs in the beginning of the movie from cartilage wearing out. This isn't something that heals all by itself.
Really? I'm not an orthopedic surgeon, so I couldn't tell you if regeneration of cartilage is an impossibility, but I'll take your word for it.
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49. Several attempts to leave the pit result in Bruce Wayne falling a significant distance with a rope tied around him so he doesn't fall to his death. When the rope reaches its maximum length on the way down and snaps him to a stop before the ground it would cause significant internal damage and/or broken ribs.
Again, I'm sure your research of the distance of the fall and the angle of impact should have absolutely resulted in significant internal damage and/or broken ribs, so I must defer to your expert diagnosis.
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52. Batman escapes from a prison in the middle east. His estate had been totally wiped out in a previous point in the film and his car is even repossessed yet somehow he makes it from the middle east back to America without any ID or money within a few days despite most of his contacts stuck in Gotham under siege.
When you're really wealthy, it's not what you have; it's who you know.
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53. All bridges except one into the city were destroyed and it is the middle of winter yet somehow Bruce Wayne is able to slip back into Gotham seemingly undetected.
How do you he wasn't detected?
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55. Shortly after slipping back into the city Bruce knows exactly where to find Selina Kyle and is waiting for her on the street.
Do we need to see every shot of the Dark Knight looking for Selena? Would that make a good movie?
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59. Gordon and a few other people exiled to death to walk across the river but Batman wearing a 50 lb bat suit has no problem walking on the ice.
Really? He's the Batman. Watch Batman Begins?
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61. Batman trying to save a city from a nuclear device and his friends from imminent death has time to scale a bridge and paint the symbol of a bat with some sort of flammable material to announce he is back in town for everyone to see.
It's all about the timing. Apparently he did have enough time to take a dump, rub one out while looking for Selena, and safely dispose a neutron bomb with a blast radius of 6 miles.
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62. Oh, and while he was so busy drawing that symbol he got John Blake's partner as well as a few other officers killed by Christopher Judge and almost got John executed himself.
Bastard!
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63. Knowing Batman was back in town and Miranda/Talia wanted to see Batman fail and suffer, why didn't she set off the nuke the moment he lights up the big giant bat symbol on the bridge? The whole city would have seen the bat symbol and it would have been the greatest point in months of their hopeful release, it would have been the highest point for Batman's hope since he got out of the pit. This should have been the point that Talia/Bane set off the bomb the absolute highest point of everyone's hope was at this moment ready for them to crush.
Maybe she wanted to crush him one more time? Maybe she was over-confident?
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64. Convicts armed with assault rifles decide to charge head first into groups of policeman with only pistols and billy clubs. A lot more cops should have been killed on the initial charge.
Where was the official death count? I must have missed it.
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65. Oh yeah, and despite these cops being trapped down in the sewers for months, they were surprisingly clean shaven. Like Batman they must have had a lot of time between their escape and their next move and stopped at home to freshen up before the final battle.
Do we know they didn't have access to shavers? If they were given sustenance during he time of captivity, is it a stretch to see them without beards?
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66. Also about the cops, after spending several months in the sewer not seeing their families or really having the chance/nutrients to keep physically fit they are more than ready to go charging head first into the convicts who are armed better than they are.
Okay, I think that's called courage.
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67. Another thing about the cops. Bane and his crew were hunting down cops on the surface like dogs. We are given this information several times. If their goal is to hunt down and eradicate the cops and exile them to death to walk across the ice then why the hell or they feeding and giving the cops down in the sewers supplies for MONTHS!?!
You sure it was Bane and his crew feeding the cops? That does seem to defy logic.
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68. What was the point of the second fight scene between Batman and Bane? To find the trigger? ?? Why not just have Batman be the one to put the transmitter on the transport with the nuke, then take care of the nuke? Why did he need to go fight Bane in hand-to-hand combat? Batman's actions are nonsensical at this point in the film. Lets fly the Bat Plane to destroy the Tumblers so the police can charge Braveheart style into the prisoners with machine guns while we park the Bat Plane and go fight Bane on the steps of city hall in hand-to-hand combat scene that doesn't matter because we need to get back to the Bat Plane and chase down the bomb anyways?
I'm going to have to re-watch before attempting to address this one.
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69. Also, why the hell did he only destroy the one tumbler with the Bat Plane before the Braveheart charge? Because it was the only one that was pointing a canon at the police? That was a dumb cop out considering that Talia then uses it to flee the scene and protect the bomb with one. Also, why the hell was only just one of the Tumblers threatening to blow up the police?
Same as above.
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71. The weaponized reactor came equipped with a time device that was greater than 99% accurate in determining the exact time it would take before the weapon would decay to the point that it would explode despite the fact the doctor who weaponized the reactor was unsure it would blow after that point anyways.
If the bomb didn't go off when the counter reached zero, allowing Batman to dispose the bomb, you would have cried "Foul!"
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72. Speaking of which, how did seemingly every character know the precise time this bomb was going to detonate when nobody had even seen the bomb for months except when Gordon got into the back of the truck?
Wasn't the precise time broadcast to the public? Maybe I'm thinking of something else. Again, it's another movie convention you have to just accept. If you want realism, and no one knows the precise time of detonation, or even the certainty of it, you have the recipe for a documentary, not a blockbuster summer action flick.
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75. Gordon manages to survive riding in the back of the truck with the bomb after the truck crashes but Talia doesn't. Gordon would have been flung hard enough around in the back of that truck to have sustained serious injury.
Luck be a lady. Not always.
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89. Bane character issue - The entire film Bane is devoted to making people suffer, specifically he wants to make Batman/Wayne suffer as well. Yet at the very end of the film he wants to take the easy way out and blow off Batman's head with a shotgun. This leaves him wide open for Catwoman to come in and blow him away with a rocket from the batpod.
Not too crazy about the manner in which Bane was disposed either. But not a plot hole.
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93. Batman doesn't like guns or killing, we have this driven into our heads in TDK. Despite this he spends the last ten minutes of the film flying around shooting everything in sight including missile after missile to kill the driver and Talia in the nuke transport. Also, what was the point with the bow and arrow other than to scare Selina?
Just because he doesn't like killing, does not mean he will not kill. Specially if the alternative is the total destruction. Not sure about the bow reference.


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post #124 of 145 Old 08-07-2012, 06:46 AM
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The whole movie builds up for the final Battle between Batman and Bane yet Catwoman jumps in, saves Batman, and puts an end to Bane with one press of the button. IMO that's not a very satisfying end for such a build up..

Had 0 problem with this. Batman had already defeated Bane. He didn't need to do it again.

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- When Batman took the bomb out of the city I feel that the movie would have made more sense to let Batman die in this scene. This would have made the ending more emotional and Batman would have looked like more of a hero. Instead, he leaves the city with Selina Kyle? And his last scene spent with Alfred was a fight leaving him in tears and then all of the sudden Alfred sees him after his funeral and he's OK with this?

Alfred was happy to see Bruce achieve what he wanted for him all along, a life without Batman, without hatred over his parent's death. The boy he raised from the family he dedicated his life to turned out to be alive, its no surprise he was happy. Batman dying would've been counter productive to growth of Bruce Wayne throughout the movie.
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post #125 of 145 Old 08-07-2012, 08:27 AM
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I think the one that stuck out to me most was the issue of escaping the middle east and showing up unaided on que in Gotham....  Oh and the pit prisoner punching his vertebrae back into place.

 

However, the biggest grip I had overall was Bane's voice it was annoying after scene one.  Go explain how you get a studio mixed vocal like someone gowling into a microphone close range sound in a room full of people or worse yet in an open crowded street.........  Pitiful.

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post #126 of 145 Old 08-07-2012, 09:27 AM
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However, the biggest grip I had overall was Bane's voice it was annoying after scene one.  Go explain how you get a studio mixed vocal like someone gowling into a microphone close range sound in a room full of people or worse yet in an open crowded street.........  Pitiful.

um....try covering your mouth with one hand in a crowded street and see how that sounds when you talk... wink.gif
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post #127 of 145 Old 08-07-2012, 10:16 AM
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Just keep talkin'. I'll let you know when you're right.
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post #128 of 145 Old 08-07-2012, 12:43 PM
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My feeling was that the various clues at the end were meant to be ambiguous, not so much "you'll find the answer if you put the pieces together." Did he or didn't he survive? If we do another sequel, we'll say he did because we left the possibility open, kind of thing.
As for Alfred at the end seeing Bruce, it seemed most reasonably taken to me as a sort of fantasy sequence. Alfred's grief in front of Bruce's grave seemed to genuine, so the fairly unsurprised reaction he has to seeing Bruce at the end doesn't seem to mix with that. His actions have the expectation of a fantasy playing out, rather than truly seeing someone you were sure was dead when you stood at his grave.
BTW, thinking about these aspects of the film reminds me of the difference between this film, a typical Nolan film, and Ridley Scott's Prometheus. Both want to talk about large or deep themes. But so many parts of Prometheus seemed lazy and poorly motivated that it gives me little confidence there was a truly coherent story there to uncover. With Nolan, though, he takes plot as number one priority (as he says he's trying to go for complexity/density in plot in the same way BladeRunner did it with visuals). I DO have confidence that Nolan is a brilliant guy who really has carefully thought out his stories, and so I'm willing to put the effort into uncovering the clues.

Why would I be surprised that I think your post is right on the money. smile.gif I agree totally with your critique of the final scene and performances. Either this was a phoned in re-shoot ending (highly unlikely) or as you predict. Otherwise, Alfred's reaction would not have been so quick or convenient. The emotion of his performance would have been shock and disbelief, maybe supported by a very brief or somewhat blocked point of view shot of Bruce. The "reveal" would have been in ECUs of the eyes, and eventually Alfred's mouth closing and giving only a glint of hope of a smile. Cut to black an end credits.

As for the predictions of Batman's nuke delivery and possible survival...(The old fighter pilot coming out in me). Several facts: a 4-megaton weapon with a 6-mile blast radius; a fully-developed mushroom cloud of a nuke the size depicted would be at an altitude (in excess of 50,000 feet) far above that capable by the Bat. Even a modern fighter could not escape by going vertical. You have to have horizontal seperation to survive the heat and the blast. There are two ways that Wayne could have survived: sacrifice the Bat by putting it on full auto-pilot (including altitude hold), then ejecting or otherwise somehow surviving a bail out; or he could theoretically have climbed to an altitude from which there would have been time-to-go on the detonation that would permit a fairly long weapon time-of-flight which permits the Bat with Wayne to get the hell out of Dodge. Given the little time remaining to detonation, and the heavy load that the weapon put on the Bat, the climb is unlikely. My guess would be the former scenario. FWIW, that mushroom cloud for that size weapon looked like it would be maybe 15-20 miles away. Did the Bat have the groundspeed to travel that distance in the elapsed time? Do the math on that one. wink.gifsmile.gif

I know it's morbid, but...in today's era of stealth and laser/gps guidance, an aircraft would deliver from altitiude. Prior to this era, if fighters were to deliver a nuke, the weapon would either be done from low-level laydown where the weapon is hardened and has a delay, or via a toss delivery. But more often, a toss delivery would be done. This is a high-speed, low-level run-in where the aircraft is pulled into a fairly strong G climb with the weapon released in a "toss". The aircraft basically continues an Immelman turn (half loop) which point it back to the friendlies and hauls ass to escape the blast. The weapon has quite a long time-of-flight, but the margins for escape were based on the distance at which things started melting on the aircraft; not much margin! eek.gif Of course, the heat is virtually instantaneous, whereas the blast takes time and is dissipated quickly by the atmosphere...also affected by the height of detonation. A surface detonation would dissipate very quickly, whereas one at the appropriate altitude would benefit from the mach stem (wave)...which is supersonic and a larger blast radius. You can see this phenomenon in a video here. It is visible beginning at the middle of the bottom of the picture as the two waves merge and accelerate across the screen. http://www.atomicarchive.com/Effects/effects6.shtml

One last point...an artisitc license choice that challenges reality was that the cops and the kids watched the detonation. They would all be seriously, if not permanently, blinded. It seems that the future Robin would have commanded the kids all not watch.

Overall, I thought the movie worth every minute.
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post #129 of 145 Old 08-07-2012, 01:24 PM
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Why would I be surprised that I think your post is right on the money. smile.gif I agree totally with your critique of the final scene and performances. Either this was a phoned in re-shoot ending (highly unlikely) or as you predict. Otherwise, Alfred's reaction would not have been so quick or convenient. The emotion of his performance would have been shock and disbelief, maybe supported by a very brief or somewhat blocked point of view shot of Bruce. The "reveal" would have been in ECUs of the eyes, and eventually Alfred's mouth closing and giving only a glint of hope of a smile. Cut to black an end credits.

And what about appreciating the scene simply for its cinematic resonance (if there's such a thing!)? I know these Batman films are supposed to be "grounded in reality" but still... There are clues that clearly suggest that Bruce is still alive. The scene is simply a symbol of Bruce's new life (for those who think he survived of course). Does it have to be shown in a "realisitic" way with Alfred having a heart-attack and stuff (I mean poor Alfred is not that young anymore tongue.gif) ? I don't think so.
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post #130 of 145 Old 08-07-2012, 01:55 PM
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I think the ending is straight forward as well and that Bruce Wayne did survive. Bruce/Batman is supposed to be smart and I am sure he thought things through when taking the bomb out to the sea to save others including his own life. He pretty much had retired in this movie but came back one last time to defeat Bane and Talia. The ending with Alfred not jumping up and down is because that's not his character and never was. Besides, he knows all about Bruce Wayne...I mean he raised him since he was a little boy after all. Alfred knows what Bruce/Batman is capable of so nothing really surprises him, so, seeing him alive just made him smile because Bruce finally retired Batman like he had wanted him to and lead a normal life.

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post #131 of 145 Old 08-07-2012, 02:37 PM
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First I have a question, did we ever see him start the Bat that was parked on the roof?

Second, to me it seems pretty clear that he faked his own death. He did fix the autopilot and didnt tell anyone about it, even at the end he stated that he must pilot it by himself, despite him knowing that he didnt have to.

So he know that he didnt have to fly it to the detonation point, why would he do it?

Also, Alfreds reaction could be explained with this. Alfred knew that Bruce knew that Alfred wanted to see him at the cafe, Alfred was looking for Bruce, because Bruce could show up there if he wanted Alfred to know that he was not only alive and well, but that he also have moved on and was at peace with his past. Alfred expected to find Bruce there, and that was the reaction we saw.
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post #132 of 145 Old 08-07-2012, 03:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Morpheo View Post

And what about appreciating the scene simply for its cinematic resonance (if there's such a thing!)? I know these Batman films are supposed to be "grounded in reality" but still... There are clues that clearly suggest that Bruce is still alive. The scene is simply a symbol of Bruce's new life (for those who think he survived of course). Does it have to be shown in a "realisitic" way with Alfred having a heart-attack and stuff (I mean poor Alfred is not that young anymore tongue.gif) ? I don't think so.

Sure. I don't know what that is smile.gif...,but regardless of my suggestions for it maybe being shot, directed, and cut differently, I was a bit surprised...and smiled broadly. smile.gif
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post #133 of 145 Old 08-07-2012, 04:45 PM
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Iamian, I appreciate that you made an effort to answer the questions. I wanted to show you that there were significant issues that I had with the movie. I did want to say that, having knee issues, I can tell you that meniscus does not grow back. Also, regarding those little bat-boomarangs, they were first introduced in BB so they weren't new in TDKR. It mainly seems that Nolan had a story that he wanted to tell more so than making sure everything added up. Even though the movie looks great, as I thought about it, it just feels hollow and shallow.

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post #134 of 145 Old 08-07-2012, 05:15 PM
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Originally Posted by daryl zero View Post

Iamian, I appreciate that you made an effort to answer the questions. I wanted to show you that there were significant issues that I had with the movie. I did want to say that, having knee issues, I can tell you that meniscus does not grow back. Also, regarding those little bat-boomarangs, they were first introduced in BB so they weren't new in TDKR. It mainly seems that Nolan had a story that he wanted to tell more so than making sure everything added up. Even though the movie looks great, as I thought about it, it just feels hollow and shallow.
I read this on another forum. Sums up rather eloquently I thought.
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Originally Posted by Parsifal View Post

I wouldn't go so far as to say any of the films in the Nolan trilogy qualify as great art, and all three have their weaknesses. However, as a Batman fan from an eary age I find them nostalgically satifsfying and thoroughly entertaining. The overall story-arch in TDKR was very well done in my opinion, and it definitely had dramatic resonance. Looking at the trilogy as a whole, my first impression is of how impressive it is that each film has it's own distinct style and atmosphere, and yet Nolan has fused all these hybrid elements into a convincing whole: the sense of unity that he creates in terms of storylines and characters.

As far as this whole argument about the pretense of realism ultimately hurting the validity of TDKR...well, I guess I just disagree about the aims of this so-called "realisitic" filmmaking. I think, as the blogpost form Roger Ebert pointed out, the success of the films has less to do with them being realisitc and more to do with them taking themselves and their subject matter seriously. The characters are treated with nuance, the actors give convincing performances, playing it "straight" and not hamming it up. There are underlying themes and questions that are posed that add extra layers to the drama and action beyond the usual motivations and mechanical plots employed by most superhero movies. I think that when it's stated that these films are meant to be more realistic, that just means don't expect a character to fall several stories to their death and then be revived by a bunch of cats.

Because let's face it, realism went out the window a long time ago. It wasn't exactly realisitc when Batman summoned a ton of bats in Batman Begins for backup. The way the cops act in all three movies isn't realisitc. And if you want to talk strict realism, I'm not sure how the Joker broke out of ICU in TDK, realistcally. I mean, a bomb goes off in the prisoner holding area, and that takes out every single cop in the area, including those standing right in front of the Joker that were pointing guns at him, while he just stands there completely fine? I think the same principle that applied there applies to several scenes in TDKR. Sometimes you just have to go with the emotions of the scenes and not get caught up in the details. The films are much, much more effective when viewed that way. The Joker figured out how to escape from ICU is the general gist, accept it and enjoy the ride. Personally, I didn't have any more of a problem suspending disbelief for plot points in this movie than either of the first two. But that's just me.


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post #135 of 145 Old 08-07-2012, 08:24 PM
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It's this simple read the Frank Miller series the Dark Knight Returns from 1986 that pretty much this whole trilogy is based on. Batman dies. Bruce lives on. There's no inception style ending. It wouldnt fit the 3 films that were so realistic. Take it at face value. And we all know WB and DC would never allow Nolan to kill Batman so basically it is what it is. Also Silena is wearing the pearls that they had tracked. Batman is dead and Bruce Wayne is alive. This is the exact way Dark Knight Returns ends.

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post #136 of 145 Old 08-08-2012, 01:07 AM
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Originally Posted by MovieSwede View Post

First I have a question, did we ever see him start the Bat that was parked on the roof?
Better question: if that Bat blew up with the bomb, then what the hell was Lucius standing next to at the end of the movie when the technicians were checking the autopilot?

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post #137 of 145 Old 08-08-2012, 01:23 AM
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

Better question: if that Bat blew up with the bomb, then what the hell was Lucius standing next to at the end of the movie when the technicians were checking the autopilot?

The second prototyp I guess?
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post #138 of 145 Old 08-08-2012, 08:29 AM
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

Better question: if that Bat blew up with the bomb, then what the hell was Lucius standing next to at the end of the movie when the technicians were checking the autopilot?

Just like there were multiple Tumbler's, there were multiple Bat's. Bruce Wayne patched the software on all of them.
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post #139 of 145 Old 08-08-2012, 02:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Mike_Stuewe View Post

Just like there were multiple Tumbler's, there were multiple Bat's.
Right, so for people thinking Bruce had to be in the Bat that blew up with the bomb....

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post #140 of 145 Old 08-10-2012, 01:34 AM
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Not impressed! I thought it was a lift off from angels and demons:(
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post #141 of 145 Old 08-13-2012, 10:57 PM
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batman5rq.jpg

batman3o.jpg

batman4.jpg

batman2v.jpg

batman1fj.jpg

http://www.jest.com/article/185011/dark-knight-rises-newspaper-headlines

Jerry. Just remember. Its not a lie . . . if you believe it. GC
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post #142 of 145 Old 08-14-2012, 06:32 AM
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As for the ending, if you want to view it as a fantasy, you could argue since Alfred knew that Selina took the necklace (Bruce even told Alfred how fond Selina was of the pearls) and the mention in the will reading that they were still missing, Alfred just put two and two together in his mind. I don't think that's what happened at all (I'm in the "Alfred really saw Bruce alive and well" camp) but you could view it as a dream if you wish.

And despite his first name being Robin, I think it's pretty obvious John Blake becomes Batman at the end. The platform literally rises him up and then the title card appears: The Dark Knight Rises. This gives a second meaning to the title. The first being Bruce as Batman rising to defeat Bane. The second being Blake rising to take the mantle of the Batman.

By the way, anyone else feel that Bruce with a beard, even sporting a bow and arrow in one scene, was a nod to Oliver Queen? Green Arrow has often been viewed as a low rent Batman knockoff (Arrowcave, Arrowcar, Speedy, etc.) so I wonder if this was a playful wink by Goyer/Nolan Bros. to comic book fans.
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if the bomb had a 6 mile kill radius wouldn't then Bane and Talia both have been killed in the blast?

That was their plan. Ra's Al Ghul wanted the world to watch in horror as Gotham destroyed itself. It fit with the LoS' goal of restarting civilization by forcing it to start anew from the ashes from the one before. The Joker, despite his claims of being an agent of chaos, was actually a schemer who delighted in showing people as being nothing but animals that hide behind rules and society in defiance of their base instincts.

Talia and Bane? They were just a pair of nutbars that wanted to blow up a city along with themselves. Seriously, just listen to Talia as she explains her idiotic backstory once she got out of the Pit. It's basically the following: Bane was my best friend and protector. But my dad kicked him out cos Bane was a constant reminder of my dead mother. So I hated my father. Then you killed my father so I loved my father again. So I decided to complete my father's work by, you know, blowing up Gotham City and myself. Because that's not crazy at all and totally what my dad planned to do himself, right? Yeah...

I liked the movie alright enough but it's the weakest in the trilogy and has the most retarded pair of villains.
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Originally Posted by Morpheo View Post

In Batman Begins, Neeson doesn't know that Bruce is Batman until the very end of the film.

Untrue. "Surely a man who spends his nights scrambling over the rooftops of Gotham wouldn't begrudge me dual identities." He knew that Bruce was Batman. His comment of "well well. You took my advice about theatricality a bit literaly" was in response to seeing Bruce in costume for the first time. Although he was aware of Bruce's nightime activities, Ra's hadn't personally seen Bruce in costume until then.

Also, most of the League members assisting Ra's in BB escaped unharmed. Surely they told Talia and Bane what Bruce was up to (assuming the unlikely scenario that they didn't know already) after Ra's had died.
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post #143 of 145 Old 08-16-2012, 01:15 PM
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Kay so at the end of dark night i too believed that Bruce had survived because of the meeting at the restaurant. BUT Bruce Wayne would never be satisfied with leaving Gotham b/c he was their protector and their hope. He had always dreamed of dying FOR gotham. Alfred had always dreamed of Bruce being content and completely happy with himself. At the end of the movie the meeting at the restaurant was to symbolize that Bruce WAS satisfied. Therefore making Alfred aswell,as he had finally realized this is what Bruce had wanted. smile.gif
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post #144 of 145 Old 08-16-2012, 02:21 PM
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Kay so at the end of dark night i too believed that Bruce had survived because of the meeting at the restaurant. BUT Bruce Wayne would never be satisfied with leaving Gotham b/c he was their protector and their hope. He had always dreamed of dying FOR gotham. Alfred had always dreamed of Bruce being content and completely happy with himself. At the end of the movie the meeting at the restaurant was to symbolize that Bruce WAS satisfied. Therefore making Alfred aswell,as he had finally realized this is what Bruce had wanted. smile.gif

The following is from another forum:
Quote:
Except that it's not ambiguous at all. The script and the official novel make it clear that he's alive. Plus, Greg Cox, who wrote the official novel, has said himself that it is not meant to be ambiguous and that no one at WB or Syncopy told him to make it ambiguous. Bruce faking his death is straight from the comics. In the script, we don't even see him in the BAT after the building blows up. That last cockpit shot was added purely for dramatic effect by Nolan.
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post #145 of 145 Old 08-19-2012, 08:01 PM
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I would love to see all of the cut stuff a big movie like this can have 2 or more hr's cut from it.
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