Sight & Sound poll replaces "Citizen Kane" with "Vertigo" as top film - Page 3 - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #61 of 82 Old 08-18-2012, 07:57 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Tulpa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 10,026
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 58
Well, I appreciate her giving her opinion, but it still doesn't explain that film's reverence by some. We get all the inner workings and the details, but it doesn't explain the overall picture. Shawshank does everything competently, and some things really well, but what is it that propels that film into the upper echelon? Its cinematography is good, but not spectacular. It poses interesting questions, but nothing startlingly new. It's characters are good, but labor under a layer of sentimentality.

The truly great films, in my mind at least, have something that provides a shockingly new shift in perception, in expectations, in how we look at the world. Even if they tread familiar themes, they take a new approach. Shawshank is reaffirming, definitely entertaining, and I can see that it warms the heart, but I don't see it attaining or even really striving for those lofty heights.

I really think that in an era of diminishing expectations that films like Shawshank tend to get a bit overvalued.

Don't believe everything on the Interwebz! A duck's quack DOES echo!
Tulpa is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #62 of 82 Old 08-18-2012, 08:07 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Tulpa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 10,026
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 58
And I'm not saying that every film has to do all that. I like a good cheesy horror film, zombie flick or frat pack comedy as much as anyone. But to hit the top, IMO, it does.

Don't believe everything on the Interwebz! A duck's quack DOES echo!
Tulpa is offline  
post #63 of 82 Old 08-18-2012, 03:23 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Kilgore's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Huntsville Ontario
Posts: 2,999
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 64 Post(s)
Liked: 172
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tulpa View Post

Well, I appreciate her giving her opinion, but it still doesn't explain that film's reverence by some. We get all the inner workings and the details, but it doesn't explain the overall picture. Shawshank does everything competently, and some things really well, but what is it that propels that film into the upper echelon? Its cinematography is good, but not spectacular. It poses interesting questions, but nothing startlingly new. It's characters are good, but labor under a layer of sentimentality.
The truly great films, in my mind at least, have something that provides a shockingly new shift in perception, in expectations, in how we look at the world. Even if they tread familiar themes, they take a new approach. Shawshank is reaffirming, definitely entertaining, and I can see that it warms the heart, but I don't see it attaining or even really striving for those lofty heights.
I really think that in an era of diminishing expectations that films like Shawshank tend to get a bit overvalued.

The thing is that every point you make about qualities The Shawshank Redemption doesn't have are points that a devotee of The Shawshank Redemption would say it has in spades.

To put it simply, this film did not resonate with you. It does resonate with many others. They are affected in a deep and profound way. You were not.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Kilgore is offline  
post #64 of 82 Old 08-18-2012, 05:36 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Tulpa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 10,026
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 58
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kilgore View Post

The thing is that every point you make about qualities The Shawshank Redemption doesn't have are points that a devotee of The Shawshank Redemption would say it has in spades.

I suppose, but I have yet to see a convincing argument that points out any of the unique qualities of Shawshank that other films have either pioneered or reexamined in a new and startling way, whereas other films like The Godfather, or Lawrence of Arabia, or Citizen Kane or The Grand Illusion or many others have. On the contrary, it seems to reinforce heavily themes and qualities that have been used before, in a way that so many other "good but not the greatest" films have done. And there's nothing wrong with that, but it's also not really what screams greatness. To me at least.

I guess it's just my view. Before I start banding about the "greatest" moniker on a film, I prefer to see the shock of the new, or the reexamination of the old in a startling new way. Something Shawshank never did for me (and again, I found it entertaining.)
Quote:
To put it simply, this film did not resonate with you. It does resonate with many others. They are affected in a deep and profound way. You were not.

True. But even something that resonates doesn't necessarily mean greatness by itself.

Don't believe everything on the Interwebz! A duck's quack DOES echo!
Tulpa is offline  
post #65 of 82 Old 08-19-2012, 01:03 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
oink's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Shuloch
Posts: 26,553
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 65 Post(s)
Liked: 816
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tulpa View Post

True. But even something that resonates doesn't necessarily mean greatness by itself.
This is the problem we keep running in to: WHAT IS GREAT, WHAT IS BEST, WHAT IS FAVORITE (or most loved?).

In some respects, it's splitting hairs.

None of us will agree with another member....because each of us have our own personal POV.

How about this: you will be shipwrecked on an island for the rest of your life and you will be allowed ONLY 25 movies in the provided HT....what would those be?

A.P.S. deserve our protection....join the cause today!
oink is offline  
post #66 of 82 Old 08-19-2012, 05:37 AM
One-Man Content Creator
 
wmcclain's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 17,262
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 380 Post(s)
Liked: 346
Quote:
Originally Posted by oink View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tulpa View Post

True. But even something that resonates doesn't necessarily mean greatness by itself.
This is the problem we keep running in to: WHAT IS GREAT, WHAT IS BEST, WHAT IS FAVORITE (or most loved?).

In some respects, it's splitting hairs.

None of us will agree with another member....because each of us have our own personal POV.

How about this: you will be shipwrecked on an island for the rest of
your life and you will be allowed ONLY 25 movies in the provided
HT....what would those be?

I recall voluminous older threads on the topic; we could find and resurrect
them.

Assorted thoughts:

  • I talk about my desert island list, although it is hard to know what a
    person would actually want in that case. When Charlton Heston was the last man
    in the world he kept a theater running so he could watch Woodstock,
    undoubtedly for its population density.
  • I once read Neil Postman's book Technopoly, which is all about the
    misapplication of science, the attempt to instrument and engineer aspects of
    life that shouldn't be treated that way. Quantifying the qualitative. Ever
    since I have been leery of making top-10 and best- lists.
  • On the other hand I enjoy seeing book lists and recommended reading from
    authors, what they like and what influenced them. But there is no implication
    of "best" or "greatest" here. Same for films.
  • I am sometimes hesitant to recommend books or films because people get the
    wrong idea from the recommendation. They come back and say "You PROMISED this
    would be the BEST BOOK EVER and would have ALL THE ANSWERS and it didn't! I
    was BORED!"
  • I think quirkier film lists might be more interesting, emphasizing they are
    just personal choices. "Less Famous Films I'm Glad I Didn't Miss" or "Films I
    Saw Once Long Ago But Which Stick In My Mind". The "guilty pleasure" lists are
    fun, although no one need feel guilty about what they like.
  • Shawshank: I saw it once in the VHS days, which is not a fair viewing, but
    have not felt the need to revisit it.

-Bill


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
|
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Unofficial OPPO FAQS:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
|
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
|
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
|
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

 

 

wmcclain is offline  
post #67 of 82 Old 08-19-2012, 09:34 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Tulpa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 10,026
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 58
Quote:
Originally Posted by oink View Post

How about this: you will be shipwrecked on an island for the rest of your life and you will be allowed ONLY 25 movies in the provided HT....what would those be?

Am I alone on this island? Specifically without members of the opposite sex? Because that's going to skew my answer a bit.

tongue.gif

Don't believe everything on the Interwebz! A duck's quack DOES echo!
Tulpa is offline  
post #68 of 82 Old 08-19-2012, 11:27 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
oink's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Shuloch
Posts: 26,553
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 65 Post(s)
Liked: 816
Quote:
Originally Posted by wmcclain View Post


[*]I think quirkier film lists might be more interesting, emphasizing they are
just personal choices. "Less Famous Films I'm Glad I Didn't Miss" or "Films I
Saw Once Long Ago But Which Stick In My Mind". The "guilty pleasure" lists are
fun, although no one need feel guilty about what they like.
Good ideas.

How about just a thread title like this: YOUR LIST.
Keep it undefined.
Whatever criteria one wants to use is just fine and doesn't need to be validated, approved, or even identified.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tulpa View Post

Am I alone on this island? Specifically without members of the opposite sex? Because that's going to skew my answer a bit.
tongue.gif
OK, that's just wrong.biggrin.gif

A.P.S. deserve our protection....join the cause today!
oink is offline  
post #69 of 82 Old 08-19-2012, 12:38 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Aliens's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Virginia
Posts: 7,844
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 107 Post(s)
Liked: 307
Quote:
Originally Posted by oink View Post

Whatever criteria one wants to use is just fine and doesn't need to be validated, approved, or even identified.
Did hell freeze over during the weekend? wink.gif

I’m afraid that will cause some to have a mental breakdown. You can’t just say you like so and so; it must meet a 35-point checklist. It must be argued. It must be debated. Argued and debated in order to tell someone their opinion is not valid unless you can convince them otherwise, which is never going to happen. It’s an exercise in futility because, for various reasons, they never considered it all that great to begin with. Therefore it’s incumbent upon them to repeatedly tell others it isn’t that great. It isn’t that great. It isn’t that great. This thread is a testament to that. smile.gif
Aliens is offline  
post #70 of 82 Old 08-19-2012, 01:07 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
oink's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Shuloch
Posts: 26,553
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 65 Post(s)
Liked: 816
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aliens View Post

Did hell freeze over during the weekend? wink.gif
I’m afraid that will cause some to have a mental breakdown. You can’t just say you like so and so; it must meet a 35-point checklist. It must be argued. It must be debated. Argued and debated in order to tell someone their opinion is not valid unless you can convince them otherwise, which is never going to happen. It’s an exercise in futility because, for various reasons, they never considered it all that great to begin with. Therefore it’s incumbent upon them to repeatedly tell others it isn’t that great. It isn’t that great. It isn’t that great. This thread is a testament to that. smile.gif
OK, I apologize for my insolence....

A.P.S. deserve our protection....join the cause today!
oink is offline  
post #71 of 82 Old 08-19-2012, 05:20 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Aliens's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Virginia
Posts: 7,844
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 107 Post(s)
Liked: 307
Quote:
Originally Posted by oink View Post

OK, I apologize for my insolence....
Not at all insolent. It’s a good idea. I’m just sayin’ that it wouldn’t take long for others to disrespect a list because it didn’t live up to their ‘superior’ intellectual criteria of what they think is a good movie.
Aliens is offline  
post #72 of 82 Old 08-19-2012, 06:04 PM
AVS Special Member
 
iamian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Burbank, CA
Posts: 1,044
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 25
I like the simplicity of this poll; ask 1000 cinefiles around the world for their 10 films, in no particular ranking, and tally up the number of times a film is mentioned. I really can't understand all the hate for this list.


iamian is offline  
post #73 of 82 Old 08-19-2012, 07:35 PM
One-Man Content Creator
 
wmcclain's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 17,262
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 380 Post(s)
Liked: 346
Quote:
Originally Posted by iamian View Post

I really can't understand all the hate for this list.

Another thing: just in recent history people have started calling criticism or disagreement "hate". Bugs the hell out of me.

-Bill


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
|
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Unofficial OPPO FAQS:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
|
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
|
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
|
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

 

 

wmcclain is offline  
post #74 of 82 Old 08-19-2012, 09:07 PM
AVS Special Member
 
iamian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Burbank, CA
Posts: 1,044
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 25
When you start calling one of the most respected poll "ridiculous" and "a joke", I think that goes beyond disagreement or criticism.


iamian is offline  
post #75 of 82 Old 08-20-2012, 01:05 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
oink's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Shuloch
Posts: 26,553
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 65 Post(s)
Liked: 816
Quote:
Originally Posted by iamian View Post

When you start calling one of the most respected poll "ridiculous" and "a joke", I think that goes beyond disagreement or criticism.
I call it a joke when "cinephiles" report there hasn't been any movie in the last 44 years that ranks in the top dozen of all time; maybe it's just me, but, yeah, I call it f*ckin' joke.wink.gif

A.P.S. deserve our protection....join the cause today!
oink is offline  
post #76 of 82 Old 08-20-2012, 10:10 AM
AVS Special Member
 
iamian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Burbank, CA
Posts: 1,044
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by oink View Post

I call it a joke when "cinephiles" report there hasn't been any movie in the last 44 years that ranks in the top dozen of all time; maybe it's just me, but, yeah, I call it f*ckin' joke.wink.gif
Just curious, what would be your ten?


iamian is offline  
post #77 of 82 Old 08-20-2012, 10:22 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
hitchfan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 2,086
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 16 Post(s)
Liked: 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by oink View Post

I call it a joke when "cinephiles" report there hasn't been any movie in the last 44 years that ranks in the top dozen of all time; maybe it's just me, but, yeah, I call it f*ckin' joke.wink.gif
But in this case the respondents are limited to ten choices each. In order for a movie from the last 44 years to wind up in the top dozen overall it has to be cited in the top ten of enough respondents to hit that threshold. So if you're a real cinefile and likely exposed to more screenings of movies in their entirety from the past 100 years or so than most people, the question you'd ask yourself is which Great movies are you going to edge out of your top ten list in order to include something from the past 44 years?

I don't know how much more of a "cinefile" I am than many of the Sight & Sound poll respondents, but I've never seen Man With a Movie Camera, so I can't really comment on it. And it's been a long time since I've seen The Passion of Joan of Arc and can't say it impressed me or stayed with me all that much. Perhaps from a historic perspective it must be there instead of being edged out by, say, The Shawshank Redemption, to continue a train of thought. So let's say for that reason alone, and it is a very good reason, it really deserves a high rank on the list.

But having just seen Tokyo Story for the first time I can say from my point of view there were no movies made since maybe the early 1970s (that I have seen) that I could argue ought to edge out and replace any of the 8 or 9 movies I've seen on that top ten list as the "Greatest" movies ever made. I might want other movies in that top ten list. But none of them were made after the early 1970s or so either. Not among the top ten "Greatest" at least. However, I would probably put several movies since the early 1970s among the top 100 Greatest movies ever made.
hitchfan is offline  
post #78 of 82 Old 08-20-2012, 11:41 AM
AVS Special Member
 
iamian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Burbank, CA
Posts: 1,044
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 25
If you look at the complete list, there are plenty of recent movies, just not in the top ten. In the Mood For Love is 22, I believe; and my personal favorite, "Blade Runner" is tied for 69 smile.gif


iamian is offline  
post #79 of 82 Old 08-20-2012, 01:20 PM
AVS Special Member
 
tlogan6797's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Northern VA
Posts: 4,834
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 36
Quote:
one mainstream film that I think does not get enough representation on these lists is "The French Connection."

It's the perfect gritty urban crime thriller, with terrific acting, a believable plot, a convincing main villain, and a deeply troubled protagonist. And what an ending.

Not to mention one of the greatest car chases of all time.

How about a list of the Greatest Movies of the Last 44 years?

Tom Logan
Everytime I reply the thread ends
Need motivation? Get LOGANED

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


An as-yet un-named theater designed by Big-WarrenP-BritInVA
tlogan6797 is offline  
post #80 of 82 Old 08-20-2012, 04:43 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
oink's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Shuloch
Posts: 26,553
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 65 Post(s)
Liked: 816
Quote:
Originally Posted by tlogan6797 View Post


How about a list of the Greatest Movies of the Last 44 years?
Your wish is my command....wink.gif

A.P.S. deserve our protection....join the cause today!
oink is offline  
post #81 of 82 Old 08-20-2012, 10:13 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Kilgore's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Huntsville Ontario
Posts: 2,999
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 64 Post(s)
Liked: 172
Quote:
Originally Posted by hitchfan View Post

And it's been a long time since I've seen The Passion of Joan of Arc and can't say it impressed me or stayed with me all that much. Perhaps from a historic perspective it must be there instead of being edged out by, say, The Shawshank Redemption, to continue a train of thought. So let's say for that reason alone, and it is a very good reason, it really deserves a high rank on the list.

I will never, EVER forget seeing "The Passion of Joan of Arc", and agree with many that Falconetti's performance is one of the greatest in film history. The anguish on her face is permanently etched in my brain. Personally, I think the film is a magnificent work of art, and is definitely in my personal top 10.

To put it in perspective, I loved The Shawshank Redemption. But it's not in my top 10.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Kilgore is offline  
post #82 of 82 Old 08-21-2012, 12:45 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
hitchfan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 2,086
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 16 Post(s)
Liked: 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kilgore View Post

I will never, EVER forget seeing "The Passion of Joan of Arc", and agree with many that Falconetti's performance is one of the greatest in film history. The anguish on her face is permanently etched in my brain. Personally, I think the film is a magnificent work of art, and is definitely in my personal top 10.
To put it in perspective, I loved The Shawshank Redemption. But it's not in my top 10.
I probably should give Passion another viewing after so many years. Although it didn't strike me at the time as a definite personal "Ten Greatest" candidate, I did appreciate the historical significance and influence on the form. The same reaction I have to the few Griffith films I've seen.

Which brings up another interesting element of the "older" vs "newer" Greatest designations. I might find The Passion of Joan of Arc greater today than it struck me decades ago because now I'll be seeing it in stark contrast to so much junk that's been passed off as "cinema" since my earlier viewing of it. I suspect that had a lot to do with my very strong positive reaction to a first viewing of Tokyo Story recently. It might also be one reason the cinefiles surveyed by Sight & Sound are less and less inclined to include much from the past couple of decades in their personal top ten greatest list, especially if they've taken advantage of the relatively historically new opportunity to re-see some of their earlier "greatest" pics on video/home theater in larger format and in very good or better condition. When you see or re-see something that truly exploits the intrinsic strengths of cinema after being exposed to so much "photographs of people talking, running, blowin' stuff up real good" mediocrity, the pull to recognize the truly "greatest" is perhaps more powerful than ever.
hitchfan is offline  
Reply Movies, Concerts, and Music Discussion

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off