Zero Dark Thirty, opens 1/11/2013 - Page 6 - AVS Forum
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post #151 of 254 Old 02-02-2013, 10:18 AM
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It's ok to like or dislike this movie. Really.
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post #152 of 254 Old 02-11-2013, 10:33 AM
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http://www.esquire.com/features/man-who-shot-osama-bin-laden-0313
very interesting interview in Esquire with the SEAL that shot OBL, and his thoughts about the movie: Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
"They torture the **** out of people in this movie, don't they? Everyone is chained to something."

The Shooter is sitting next to me at a local movie theater in January, watching Zero Dark Thirty for the first time. He laughs at the beginning of the film about the bin Laden hunt when the screen reads, "Based on firsthand accounts of actual events."

His uncle, who is also with us, along with the mentor and the Shooter's wife, had asked him earlier whether he'd seen the film already.

"I saw the original," the Shooter said. As the action moves toward the mission itself, I ask the Shooter whether his heart is beating faster. "No," he says matter-of-factly. But when a SEAL Team 6 movie character yells, "Breacher!" for someone to blow one of the doors of the Abbottabad compound, the Shooter says loudly, "Are you ****ing kidding me? Shut up!"

He explains afterward that no one would ever yell, "Breacher!" during an assault. Deadly silence is standard practice, a fist to the helmet sufficient signal for a SEAL with explosive packets to go to work.

During the shooting sequence, which passes, like the real one, in a flash, his fingers form a steeple under his chin and his focus is intense.

But his criticisms at dinner afterward are minor.

"The tattoo scene was horrible," he says about a moment in the film when the ST6 assault group is lounging in Afghanistan waiting to go. "Those guys had little skulls or something instead of having some real ink that goes up to here." He points to his shoulder blade.

"It was fun to watch. There was just little stuff. The helos turned the wrong way [toward the target], and they talked way, way too much [during the assault itself]. If someone was waiting for you, they could track your movements that way."

The tactics on the screen "sucked," he says, and "the mission in the damn movie took way too long" compared with the actual event. The stairs inside bin Laden's building were configured inaccurately. A dog in the film was a German shepherd; the real one was a Belgian Malinois who'd previously been shot in the chest and survived. And there's no talking on the choppers in real life.

There was also no whispered calling out of bin Laden as the SEALs stared up the third-floor stairwell toward his bedroom. "When Osama went down, it was chaos, people screaming. No one called his name."

"They Hollywooded it up some."

The portrayal of the chief CIA human bloodhound, "Maya," based on a real woman whose iron-willed assurance about the compound and its residents moved a government to action, was "awesome" says the Shooter. "They made her a tough woman, which she is."

The Shooter and the mentor joke with each other about the latest thermal/night-vision eyewear used in the movie, which didn't exist when the older man was a SEAL.

"Dude, what the ****? How come I never got my four-eye goggles?"

"We have those." "Are you kidding me?"

"SEAL Team 6, baby."

They laugh, at themselves as much as at each other.

The Shooter seems smoothed out, untroubled, as relaxed as I've seen him.

But the conversation turns dark when they discuss the portrayal of the other CIA operative, Jennifer Matthews, who was among seven people killed in 2009 when a suicide bomber was allowed into one of their black-ops stations in Afghanistan.

They both knew at least one of the paramilitary contractors who perished with her.

The supper table is suddenly flooded with the surge of strong emotions. Anguish, really, though they both hide it well. This is not a movie. It's real life, where death is final and threats last forever.

The blood is your own, not fake splatter and explosive squibs.

Movies, books, lore — we all helped make these men brilliant assassins in the name of liberty, lifted them up on our shoulders as unique and exquisitely trained heroes, then left them alone in the shadows of their past.

Uncertainty will never be far away for the Shooter. His government may have shut the door on him, but he is required to live inside the consequences of his former career.

One line from the film kept resonating in my head. An actor playing a CIA station chief warns Maya about jihadi vengeance. "Once you're on their list," he says, "you never get off."
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post #153 of 254 Old 02-11-2013, 02:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Roger Lococco View Post

http://www.esquire.com/features/man-who-shot-osama-bin-laden-0313
very interesting interview in Esquire with the SEAL that shot OBL, and his thoughts about the movie: Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
"They torture the **** out of people in this movie, don't they? Everyone is chained to something."

The Shooter is sitting next to me at a local movie theater in January, watching Zero Dark Thirty for the first time. He laughs at the beginning of the film about the bin Laden hunt when the screen reads, "Based on firsthand accounts of actual events."

His uncle, who is also with us, along with the mentor and the Shooter's wife, had asked him earlier whether he'd seen the film already.

"I saw the original," the Shooter said. As the action moves toward the mission itself, I ask the Shooter whether his heart is beating faster. "No," he says matter-of-factly. But when a SEAL Team 6 movie character yells, "Breacher!" for someone to blow one of the doors of the Abbottabad compound, the Shooter says loudly, "Are you ****ing kidding me? Shut up!"

He explains afterward that no one would ever yell, "Breacher!" during an assault. Deadly silence is standard practice, a fist to the helmet sufficient signal for a SEAL with explosive packets to go to work.

During the shooting sequence, which passes, like the real one, in a flash, his fingers form a steeple under his chin and his focus is intense.

But his criticisms at dinner afterward are minor.

"The tattoo scene was horrible," he says about a moment in the film when the ST6 assault group is lounging in Afghanistan waiting to go. "Those guys had little skulls or something instead of having some real ink that goes up to here." He points to his shoulder blade.

"It was fun to watch. There was just little stuff. The helos turned the wrong way [toward the target], and they talked way, way too much [during the assault itself]. If someone was waiting for you, they could track your movements that way."

The tactics on the screen "sucked," he says, and "the mission in the damn movie took way too long" compared with the actual event. The stairs inside bin Laden's building were configured inaccurately. A dog in the film was a German shepherd; the real one was a Belgian Malinois who'd previously been shot in the chest and survived. And there's no talking on the choppers in real life.

There was also no whispered calling out of bin Laden as the SEALs stared up the third-floor stairwell toward his bedroom. "When Osama went down, it was chaos, people screaming. No one called his name."

"They Hollywooded it up some."

The portrayal of the chief CIA human bloodhound, "Maya," based on a real woman whose iron-willed assurance about the compound and its residents moved a government to action, was "awesome" says the Shooter. "They made her a tough woman, which she is."

The Shooter and the mentor joke with each other about the latest thermal/night-vision eyewear used in the movie, which didn't exist when the older man was a SEAL.

"Dude, what the ****? How come I never got my four-eye goggles?"

"We have those." "Are you kidding me?"

"SEAL Team 6, baby."

They laugh, at themselves as much as at each other.

The Shooter seems smoothed out, untroubled, as relaxed as I've seen him.

But the conversation turns dark when they discuss the portrayal of the other CIA operative, Jennifer Matthews, who was among seven people killed in 2009 when a suicide bomber was allowed into one of their black-ops stations in Afghanistan.

They both knew at least one of the paramilitary contractors who perished with her.

The supper table is suddenly flooded with the surge of strong emotions. Anguish, really, though they both hide it well. This is not a movie. It's real life, where death is final and threats last forever.

The blood is your own, not fake splatter and explosive squibs.

Movies, books, lore — we all helped make these men brilliant assassins in the name of liberty, lifted them up on our shoulders as unique and exquisitely trained heroes, then left them alone in the shadows of their past.

Uncertainty will never be far away for the Shooter. His government may have shut the door on him, but he is required to live inside the consequences of his former career.

One line from the film kept resonating in my head. An actor playing a CIA station chief warns Maya about jihadi vengeance. "Once you're on their list," he says, "you never get off."
Something is wrong here....

According to the guy who was 2nd in the room, and who wrote the controversial book, OBL was shot firstly in the side of the head, with 2-3 shots in the chest once he was down.
NOT 3 shots to the forehead as this guy claims.

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post #154 of 254 Old 02-11-2013, 05:55 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by oink View Post

Something is wrong here....

According to the guy who was 2nd in the room, and who wrote the controversial book, OBL was shot firstly in the side of the head, with 2-3 shots in the chest once he was down.
NOT 3 shots to the forehead as this guy claims.

My reaction to the Seal Team 6 guy's remarks was a quiet yawn. "The Fog of War" envelops every combat situation where fighting men are in harm's way. Not only is it not surprising that the participants' descriptions of the details differed, it would have been very surprising if they had matched.
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post #155 of 254 Old 02-11-2013, 09:50 PM
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Originally Posted by gwsat View Post

My reaction to the Seal Team 6 guy's remarks was a quiet yawn. "The Fog of War" envelops every combat situation where fighting men are in harm's way. Not only is it not surprising that the participants' descriptions of the details differed, it would have been very surprising if they had matched.

Very True

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post #156 of 254 Old 02-11-2013, 11:04 PM
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Originally Posted by gwsat View Post

My reaction to the Seal Team 6 guy's remarks was a quiet yawn. "The Fog of War" envelops every combat situation where fighting men are in harm's way. Not only is it not surprising that the participants' descriptions of the details differed, it would have been very surprising if they had matched.
I understand your point, but....
I dunno...when you kill someone, the brain tends to record, in spite of gigantic amounts of adrenaline, the finest detail.

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post #157 of 254 Old 02-11-2013, 11:09 PM
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I understand your point, but....
I dunno...when you kill someone, the brain tends to record, in spite of gigantic amounts of adrenaline, the finest detail.

Not to sound freaky but...I don't.

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post #158 of 254 Old 02-11-2013, 11:43 PM
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Not to sound freaky but...I don't.
I am envious, sir....

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post #159 of 254 Old 02-11-2013, 11:48 PM
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Some guys though do get flash bulb memories though biggrin.gif

and some guys just form a callous to the whole concept of killing.

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post #160 of 254 Old 02-12-2013, 09:14 AM
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Not to sound freaky but...I don't.

Kev-you need to take out this Christopher Dorner guy eek.gif

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post #161 of 254 Old 02-13-2013, 12:06 PM
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Kev-you need to take out this Christopher Dorner guy eek.gif
Looks like he heeded your request.

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post #162 of 254 Old 02-13-2013, 02:12 PM
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Kev-you need to take out this Christopher Dorner guy eek.gif

Consider it done biggrin.gif

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post #163 of 254 Old 02-13-2013, 03:19 PM
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Looks like he heeded your request.

Yep, and it was convenient since he was already up in Big Bear for the monthly Art of Flight fan club meeting.

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post #164 of 254 Old 02-14-2013, 04:22 PM
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this whole chris dorner thing reminds me of some sort of denziel washington movie where the good guys are really the bad guys

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post #165 of 254 Old 02-14-2013, 07:42 PM - Thread Starter
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this whole chris dorner thing reminds me of some sort of denziel washington movie where the good guys are really the bad guys

I have a hard time crediting that there could be any moral equivalency at play in the manhunt for Dormer. Dormer had killed and wounded a bunch of people, including two deputy sheriffs, one killed and one wounded, shortly before he was killed. It seemed to me that the guy had to be stopped by whatever means it took.
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post #166 of 254 Old 02-14-2013, 07:56 PM
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I have a hard time crediting that there could be any moral equivalency at play in the manhunt for Dormer. Dormer had killed and wounded a bunch of people, including two deputy sheriffs, one killed and one wounded, shortly before he was killed. It seemed to me that the guy had to be stopped by whatever means it took.
Maybe not with the Dormer case, but there are moral questions surrounding this movie:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/alex-gibney/zero-dark-thirty-torture_b_2345589.html

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post #167 of 254 Old 02-14-2013, 09:15 PM
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Originally Posted by gwsat View Post

I have a hard time crediting that there could be any moral equivalency at play in the manhunt for Dormer. Dormer had killed and wounded a bunch of people, including two deputy sheriffs, one killed and one wounded, shortly before he was killed. It seemed to me that the guy had to be stopped by whatever means it took.

He complains on the LAPD for being "bad" yet he kills two innocent people in Irvine, CA and than decides to try to rob a yacht than a car....ok. I don't see the John Q in him lol

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post #168 of 254 Old 02-14-2013, 09:17 PM
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Maybe not with the Dormer case, but there are moral questions surrounding this movie:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/alex-gibney/zero-dark-thirty-torture_b_2345589.html

I find it funny that our politicians have time to complain about a movie yet they can never figure out how to set a budget....I don't like not getting paid...

I honestly think the film did a good job with the torture scenes

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post #169 of 254 Old 02-15-2013, 01:01 AM
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I find it funny that our politicians have time to complain about a movie yet they can never figure out how to set a budget....I don't like not getting paid...
Yeah, we have a dead-beat govt.rolleyes.gif

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I honestly think the film did a good job with the torture scenes
I did too.

Whether or not it belongs in THIS movie is another question.
Bigelow has said she felt she couldn't tell the story without some reference to it.
Not sure I agree, but it wasn't my call.

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post #170 of 254 Old 02-15-2013, 06:31 AM
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I think the movie made a point of showing actionable intelligence can be gleaned from both "enhanced interrogation" as well as standard FBI interview protocols (more from the latter than the former, to be sure). It really all depends on what kind of training the subject has had. Some people can be persuaded, some can be tricked, some can be scared, some respond to pain, humiliation, etc. This movie dealt with what was, in a particular time and place. It's good that we now know what "waterboarding" is and how it works - the Catholic priesthood developed it all the way back during the Spanish Inquisition to get people to recant Judaism, for example. We're supposed to be smarter and better than that now, but sometimes, a particular nut is hard to crack any other way.
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post #171 of 254 Old 02-15-2013, 07:23 AM - Thread Starter
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Maybe not with the Dormer case, but there are moral questions surrounding this movie:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/alex-gibney/zero-dark-thirty-torture_b_2345589.html

You and I have agreed on this issue in earlier exchanges in this thread. Zero Dark Thirty's saving grace, it seems to me, was that it didn't pick a side in the debate over enhanced interrogation or the means taken to kill Bin Laden. Instead, it concentrated on the emotional cost to the CIA people charged with finding and killing him. I am more anxious than ever to get my BD of the film. It contains a lot of food for thought.
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post #172 of 254 Old 02-15-2013, 10:27 AM
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I think the movie made a point of showing actionable intelligence can be gleaned from both "enhanced interrogation" as well as standard FBI interview protocols (more from the latter than the former, to be sure). It really all depends on what kind of training the subject has had. Some people can be persuaded, some can be tricked, some can be scared, some respond to pain, humiliation, etc. This movie dealt with what was, in a particular time and place. It's good that we now know what "waterboarding" is and how it works - the Catholic priesthood developed it all the way back during the Spanish Inquisition to get people to recant Judaism, for example. We're supposed to be smarter and better than that now, but sometimes, a particular nut is hard to crack any other way.
In spite of early success, the FBI was told to pack it in after they started interrogated these guys.
The orders came from THE TOP.

These "enhanced interrogation techniques" used by the CIA gleaned very little useful information.
When you are torturing someone and tell them it will end when they answer a question, people will and do say anything to make it stop.
In other words, a lie works just as well as the truth.
This was the big lesson learned from this debacle.

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Zero Dark Thirty's saving grace, it seems to me, was that it didn't pick a side in the debate over enhanced interrogation or the means taken to kill Bin Laden. Instead, it concentrated on the emotional cost to the CIA people charged with finding and killing him.
I think KB was very slyly trying to pick a "side" by including these scenes in the movie.
It really wasn't necessary to the story of that night in Pakistan IMO.
All of those who were in the know in the govt. has said torture did not lead to UBL.

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post #173 of 254 Old 02-15-2013, 10:47 AM - Thread Starter
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I think KB was very slyly trying to pick a "side" by including these scenes in the movie.
It really wasn't necessary to the story of that night in Pakistan IMO.
All of those who were in the know in the govt. has said torture did not lead to UBL.

I couldn't discern any side taking in the screenplay. There is a genuine controversy over whether enhanced interrogation actually led to anything actionable. What isn't controversial, though, is that the CIA did such things. Thus, I thought that Bigelow and her screenwriter Mark Boal, wisely included some scenes depicting what actually happened. The only way it could make sense for the story was to show that it provided a piece to solving the puzzle of where Bin Laden was. It seems to me that the story would have been further from actual events than it turned out to be if enhanced interrogation hadn't been depicted.
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post #174 of 254 Old 02-15-2013, 11:07 AM
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I couldn't discern any side taking in the screenplay. There is a genuine controversy over whether enhanced interrogation actually led to anything actionable. What isn't controversial, though, is that the CIA did such things. Thus, I thought that Bigelow and her screenwriter Mark Boal, wisely included some scenes depicting what actually happened. The only way it could make sense for the story was to show that it provided a piece to solving the puzzle of where Bin Laden was. It seems to me that the story would have been further from actual events than it turned out to be if enhanced interrogation hadn't been depicted.
Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
The only people who have made such a claim are those trying to cover their a$$es for legal reasons and/or those who want a piece of the glory.
It's important to remember Washington is not about selfless service to the nation.
It's about its opposite.wink.gif

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post #175 of 254 Old 02-15-2013, 02:14 PM
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i think bigelow was asking us, the viewer, to choose a side by making the scenes instrumental to the narrative of her film.

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post #176 of 254 Old 02-15-2013, 02:30 PM
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i think bigelow was asking us, the viewer, to choose a side by making the scenes instrumental to the narrative of her film.
Still...it just doesn't belong in THE HUNT FOR UBL, as this movie bills itself.

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post #177 of 254 Old 02-15-2013, 03:32 PM
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Still...it just doesn't belong in THE HUNT FOR UBL, as this movie bills itself.

well in bigelow's version it does, as you are right, it is not instrumental to the plot, but i believe presenting the torture
scenes in a neutral way, and letting the viewer pass judgment on the morality/ethics of such behavior, was
the driving force why she made this film., imho.

she took a major risk by including the torture scenes since it probably means this movie goes
oscar-less as it does not comport well with hollywoods' current political correctness.

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post #178 of 254 Old 02-15-2013, 04:33 PM
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this movie goes
oscar-less as it does not comport well with hollywoods' current political correctness.
I think the Academy will be extremely P.C. this year and go with something like Silver Lining Playbook...

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post #179 of 254 Old 02-15-2013, 05:16 PM
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she took a major risk by including the torture scenes since it probably means this movie goes
oscar-less as it does not comport well with hollywoods' current political correctness.

You really think some award is a concern?
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post #180 of 254 Old 02-15-2013, 06:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mr. wally View Post

well in bigelow's version it does, as you are right, it is not instrumental to the plot, but i believe presenting the torture
scenes in a neutral way, and letting the viewer pass judgment on the morality/ethics of such behavior, was
the driving force why she made this film., imho.

she took a major risk by including the torture scenes since it probably means this movie goes
oscar-less as it does not comport well with hollywoods' current political correctness.

I felt like it could belong in the film. The hunt for UBL/OBL wasn't so ...clean:D

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