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post #181 of 254 Old 02-15-2013, 07:15 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by pokekevin View Post

I felt like it could belong in the film. The hunt for UBL/OBL wasn't so ...clean:D

That's what I was thinking. I can't imagine that any civilized person could think that the methods employed to elicit information from the al Qaeda prisoners was moral even if there was some pragmatic justification for it. Of course. the same could be said about any violence practiced in any war.
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post #182 of 254 Old 02-16-2013, 12:05 AM
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Originally Posted by pokekevin View Post

The hunt for UBL/OBL wasn't so ...clean:D
You're right, it wasn't.
It had the usual amount of CIA f_ck-ups...

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That's what I was thinking. I can't imagine that any civilized person could think that the methods employed to elicit information from the al Qaeda prisoners was moral even if there was some pragmatic justification for it. Of course. the same could be said about any violence practiced in any war.
True.

We had a chance to crush al Qaeda for good in Tora Bora at the end of 2001.
Unfortunately, the neo-cons wouldn't allow it....there was bigger fish to fry in Iraq.

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post #183 of 254 Old 02-16-2013, 05:56 AM
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We had a chance to crush al Qaeda for good in Tora Bora at the end of 2001.
Unfortunately, the neo-cons wouldn't allow it....there was bigger fish to fry in Iraq.

Certainly a contender for the worst military blunder in U.S. history. Our two airborne divisions, plus most of the 10th Mountain, were back on their bases twiddling their thumbs while our "allies" in the "Northern Alliance" allowed UBL, Omar, and all the rest of the evildoers to just walk across the border into Pakistan, after we had them nicely bottled up. The result? Endless war. It was surreal.
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post #184 of 254 Old 02-16-2013, 09:39 AM
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Certainly a contender for the worst military blunder in U.S. history. Our two airborne divisions, plus most of the 10th Mountain, were back on their bases twiddling their thumbs while our "allies" in the "Northern Alliance" allowed UBL, Omar, and all the rest of the evildoers to just walk across the border into Pakistan, after we had them nicely bottled up. The result? Endless war. It was surreal.
Our paramilitary people on the ground there told Washington EMPHATICALLY they couldn't be relied upon and requested 800 Rangers be parachuted in to seal the escape routes into Pakistan.
The request was denied and the guys there were told the Paks would seal it.
Our guys on the ground directing air strikes went nuts and screamed bloody murder up the chain of command.
To this day, the people at the top deny this or say they "can't remember."mad.gif

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Tora_Bora
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gary_Berntsen#CIA_career

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post #185 of 254 Old 02-16-2013, 10:07 AM - Thread Starter
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Our paramilitary people on the ground there told Washington EMPHATICALLY they couldn't be relied upon and requested 800 Rangers be parachuted in to seal the escape routes into Pakistan.
The request was denied and the guys there were told the Paks would seal it.
Our guys on the ground directing air strikes went nuts and screamed bloody murder up the chain of command.
To this day, the people at the top deny this or say they "can't remember."mad.gif

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Tora_Bora
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gary_Berntsen#CIA_career

What happened in Tora Bora remains a controversial issue, to say the least. General Tommy Franks claimed publicly in a 2004 New York Times op-ed piece that bin Laden was never there but an anonymous CIA operator claimed that bin Laden was indeed in Tora Bora and the CIA had begged that 800 airborne troops be dropped in. There is no way this controversy will be resolved, if it ever is resolved, until all the classified documents have been declassified.
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post #186 of 254 Old 02-16-2013, 11:12 AM
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What happened in Tora Bora remains a controversial issue, to say the least. General Tommy Franks claimed publicly in a 2004 New York Times op-ed piece that bin Laden was never there but an anonymous CIA operator claimed that bin Laden was indeed in Tora Bora and the CIA had begged that 800 airborne troops be dropped in. There is no way this controversy will be resolved, if it ever is resolved, until all the classified documents have been declassified.
Of course Franks is going to say that....there are a$$es to cover out there.

I suggest you read Gary Bernsten's (the CIA supervisor on the ground during the battle) Jawbreaker.
Also, Dalton Fury's (the guy in charge of the on the ground Delta Force team during the battle) Kill Bin Laden.
These 2 books were penned independently by the people who WERE at Tora Bora and WERE communicating up the chain of command about the situation on the ground.
I have read both and their 2 versions match very closely.

Additionally, at the bottom of the Tora Bora Wiki page there is a link to the official U.S. Senate inquiry of the Battle of Tora Bora.

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post #187 of 254 Old 02-16-2013, 12:03 PM
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No matter how you slice it, Tora Bora was a gigantic clusterfrak of historical proportions. Why, it's almost as if someone didn't want the Global War on Terror to end so darn quickly. Somebody really needs to make a movie about that. I nominate Kathryn Bigelow. Or let Oliver Stone take a crack at it. wink.gif
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post #188 of 254 Old 02-16-2013, 12:19 PM
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Why, it's almost as if someone didn't want the Global War on Terror to end so darn quickly.
wink.gif

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Somebody really needs to make a movie about that. I nominate Kathryn Bigelow. Or let Oliver Stone take a crack at it. wink.gif
The 2 eyewitness accounts above are good starting sources.

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post #189 of 254 Old 02-16-2013, 05:38 PM
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it's almost as if someone didn't want the Global War on Terror to end so darn quickly.

Duh, 1914, 1943, 1963, etc etc. Refer to Katy Perry with any questions.
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post #190 of 254 Old 02-16-2013, 10:34 PM
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Originally Posted by archiguy View Post

Certainly a contender for the worst military blunder in U.S. history. Our two airborne divisions, plus most of the 10th Mountain, were back on their bases twiddling their thumbs while our "allies" in the "Northern Alliance" allowed UBL, Omar, and all the rest of the evildoers to just walk across the border into Pakistan, after we had them nicely bottled up. The result? Endless war. It was surreal.

Even if we caught OBL at Tora Bora, that wouldn't have been the end of AQ frown.gif

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post #191 of 254 Old 02-16-2013, 11:06 PM
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Even if we caught OBL at Tora Bora, that wouldn't have been the end of AQ frown.gif
Maybe not "the end," per se....
However, the most credible post intelligence believes, in fact, ALL of the crucial members of the senior AQ leadership was there.

Sadly, as a former VP has pointed out: NEVER WASTE A GOOD CRISIS.

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post #192 of 254 Old 02-17-2013, 12:22 AM
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Maybe not "the end," per se....
However, the most credible post intelligence believes, in fact, ALL of the crucial members of the senior AQ leadership was there.

Sadly, as a former VP has pointed out: NEVER WASTE A GOOD CRISIS.

Sadly, they are all replaceable. Seen it happen too many times with another group known as JAM. Don't get me wrong though, I still think Tora Bora was a huge blunder. Would've been nice is Mullah Mohammed Omar was there too lol

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post #193 of 254 Old 02-17-2013, 02:40 PM
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No, I think al Qaida would have suffered irreparable damages if most, if not all, of their top leadership was there for the taking at Tora bora. Why the u.s. leadership allowed them to escape is somewhat imponderable.

But we still have to remember that most of the hardships. Our troops have had to endure in Afghanistan has come at the hands of the Taliban and their Pakistani allies.

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post #194 of 254 Old 02-17-2013, 03:28 PM
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No, I think al Qaida would have suffered irreparable damages if most, if not all, of their top leadership was there for the taking at Tora bora.
The 9/11 attack and the escape from Tora Bora was the biggest recruiting coups AQ ever had.

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Why the u.s. leadership allowed them to escape is somewhat imponderable.
Actually, it made perfect sense.
If I go into it here, Larry will step in.

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post #195 of 254 Old 02-17-2013, 10:10 PM
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No, I think al Qaida would have suffered irreparable damages if most, if not all, of their top leadership was there for the taking at Tora bora. Why the u.s. leadership allowed them to escape is somewhat imponderable.

But we still have to remember that most of the hardships. Our troops have had to endure in Afghanistan has come at the hands of the Taliban and their Pakistani allies.

Problem is AQ is too splintered nowadays and killing a few of their top associates isn't going to do much to stop attacks or planning against the US and their allies. AQ encompasses A LOT of groups that can operate by themselves even if "top" is removed. Yea they would face some damage if we got them at Tora Bora but they would be able to rebound quickly. Also would doubt that killing the AQ leadership would've made a difference regarding the Taliban's operations. They are barely even linked together anymore in the areas I was in.
(This is just my view!smile.gif)


On a site note, I still don't believe that all their leadership was there. Fact still reminds is we don't know what half of these "top" guys look like. We may have an image but it's not even confirmed it's them (IE: the spiritual leader of the Taliban)

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post #196 of 254 Old 02-17-2013, 10:30 PM
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Kev-where were you during the Tora Bora battle?

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post #197 of 254 Old 02-18-2013, 08:52 AM
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Problem is AQ is too splintered nowadays and killing a few of their top associates isn't going to do much to stop attacks or planning against the US and their allies. AQ encompasses A LOT of groups that can operate by themselves even if "top" is removed.
True.

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Yea they would face some damage if we got them at Tora Bora but they would be able to rebound quickly.
Wiping out AQ in Tora Bora would have sent a BIG message: if you attack the American Homeland, the price is death.
There is no more effective message than that.wink.gif

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Also would doubt that killing the AQ leadership would've made a difference regarding the Taliban's operations.
True, but the Taliban wasn't OUR problem.

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I still don't believe that all their leadership was there.
I don't have my books on the subject in my winter home.
However, I do recall Berntsen saying in his book he had intelligence during the battle of al-Zawahiri (AQ's #2) and other top lieutenants being there with UBL.

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post #198 of 254 Old 02-18-2013, 09:17 AM
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Sadly, as a former VP has pointed out: NEVER WASTE A GOOD CRISIS.

Hubris
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post #199 of 254 Old 02-18-2013, 10:16 AM
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Hubris
Although I already knew this stuff, thanx for the link.

I find it amazing how willingly the sheeple are letting this go unpunished.
Yes, it does mean it will be repeated someday.

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post #200 of 254 Old 02-18-2013, 12:35 PM
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The Taliban still is a problem for us in Afghanistan!

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post #201 of 254 Old 02-18-2013, 12:53 PM
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The Taliban still is a problem for us in Afghanistan!
Our Taliban "problem" is really our Pakistan "problem."
After 9/11, we did not give the Paks an ultimatum: either they destroy the Taliban or THEY would be destroyed.
Instead, our Govt. spun this notion they were our "allies."
As time has shown, nothing could have been further from the truth.wink.gif

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post #202 of 254 Old 02-18-2013, 01:12 PM
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With allies like Pakistan who needs enemies.

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post #203 of 254 Old 02-18-2013, 02:16 PM
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With allies like Pakistan who needs enemies.

as is well documented in zd30

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post #204 of 254 Old 02-18-2013, 02:20 PM - Thread Starter
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Back on topic for a moment, just saw that Mark Boal's Zero Dark Thirty screenplay won the Writer's Guild Best Original Screenplay award. Huzzah!
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post #205 of 254 Old 02-18-2013, 03:52 PM
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Congrats. Well deserved.
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post #206 of 254 Old 02-18-2013, 04:16 PM
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Congrats. Well deserved.
+1

KB did a superb job bringing it to the screen IMO.

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post #207 of 254 Old 02-18-2013, 08:38 PM
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I haven't raised this previously due to spoiler issues, but now that this movie been out a couple months,and since this nat geo special is running again tonight, and with the caveat of

SPOILER ALERT


has anyone seen the seal team six special on nat geo?

There are some considerable factual discrepancies between this tv version and zd30. I'm curious as to which is more accurate

The nat geo shows CIA agents renting a room near bin Alden's residence to keep it under observation and the packies actually sending fighters after the helos.

Some of you here are much more well read than I on this subject matter and would like to hear your feedback.

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post #208 of 254 Old 02-18-2013, 11:22 PM
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Originally Posted by mr. wally View Post

I haven't raised this previously due to spoiler issues, but now that this movie been out a couple months,and since this nat geo special is running again tonight, and with the caveat of

SPOILER ALERT


has anyone seen the seal team six special on nat geo?

There are some considerable factual discrepancies between this tv version and zd30. I'm curious as to which is more accurate

The nat geo shows CIA agents renting a room near bin Alden's residence to keep it under observation and the packies actually sending fighters after the helos.

Some of you here are much more well read than I on this subject matter and would like to hear your feedback.
Sorry, but I haven't seen it.
However, yes, the official story is the CIA did rent a house with a view of the compound and had "agents" watch with high-powered lenses and listening devices to try to get a better understanding who and what was in there.

The "official" story is the Paks did scramble, but it was too late and the helos were far out of range by then.
Not so sure I buy that, but that's the story.

It's important to note Abbottabad is VERY close to the border with India and the Paks are completely, absolutely paranoid of an attack from that direction.
So given THAT....wink.gif
My guess is once the U.S. noticed the fighters someone in Washington made a call to Pakistan and told them to stand-down or they wouldn't see the sunrise again.

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post #209 of 254 Old 02-19-2013, 05:08 AM
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Back on topic for a moment, just saw that Mark Boal's Zero Dark Thirty screenplay won the Writer's Guild Best Original Screenplay award. Huzzah!

Good stuff. Ive added this to my cart definitley looking forward to it.

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post #210 of 254 Old 02-19-2013, 06:41 PM
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Hubris

Thanks Aliens - Common knowledge stuff, but it's nice to see some of it repeated on mainstream media.
A few of the numbers are propaganda, like 100,000 dead when the real number is 1.4 mil, but it's TV.
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