The Hobbit: The Desolation of Smaug - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 223 Old 12-11-2013, 08:59 AM
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Originally Posted by lordcloud View Post

Far fewer places are showing it in HFR in Utah, than there were for the first one. I'm thinking most people didn't love it, and since PJ and WB are not pushing it, neither will they. I personally hated it with the strength of a thousand suns, but I can see how some would love it. Especially if they were used to FI at home.

Actually just yesterday it was reported in entertainment news that the theater count for HFR is nearly doubled this go around. However it was said they are trying to keep it more quiet this time as it was felt HFR was too big a focus of the reviews and publicity with the first one.

And I loved the HFR and never use FI at home on my projection setup (or my flatscreens for that matter). For one although the look is similar to the Hobbit at 48 fps FI creates noticeable artifacts that you don't see in something natively shot in high frame rate. Two the Hobbit at 48 fps is how the director intended it to be shown vs FI on a film shot at 24 fps is not as it was originally intended.

Its going to take a few years but eventually I think this going to be a more common format for event type movies.

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post #92 of 223 Old 12-11-2013, 09:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Bob Benson View Post

That's the thing though. My usual theater is listed as an HFR theater (and they played it in HFR last year) but they don't have any HFR listings yet. They however have listings up for imax 3d, reald 3d and 2d already.

Many theaters have "both" in the sense that they can show it in HFR *and* they can show it with Atmos but not in the same viewing... know what I mean?

At my local theater I can go in to one room and watch it an HFR, then walk into another room and watch it with Atmos... but I can't go into a room and watch it *both* HFR and Atmos.

I'm specifically hoping to see it with both....
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post #93 of 223 Old 12-11-2013, 09:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Bob Benson View Post

Actually just yesterday it was reported in entertainment news that the theater count for HFR is nearly doubled this go around. However it was said they are trying to keep it more quiet this time as it was felt HFR was too big a focus of the reviews and publicity with the first one.

And I loved the HFR and never use FI at home on my projection setup (or my flatscreens for that matter). For one although the look is similar to the Hobbit at 48 fps FI creates noticeable artifacts that you don't see in something natively shot in high frame rate. Two the Hobbit at 48 fps is how the director intended it to be shown vs FI on a film shot at 24 fps is not as it was originally intended.

Its going to take a few years but eventually I think this going to be a more common format for event type movies.

I surely hope not. When I saw it in the theater, it looked little better than what I've seen on on flat screen televisions. It was distracting and in no way looked like a movie. To me. But, I'm good with change, but I'd still like the option to watch movies that look like movies.

Sorry, didn't want to get this debate started again. smile.gif

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post #94 of 223 Old 12-11-2013, 11:26 AM
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I am not giving up on HFR.
I just need to see more examples before coming to a conclusion.
For example, how about using it in other genres....comedies, dramas, horror, etc.

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post #95 of 223 Old 12-11-2013, 11:59 AM
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Originally Posted by oink View Post

I am not giving up on HFR.
I just need to see more examples before coming to a conclusion.
For example, how about using it in other genres....comedies, dramas, horror, etc.

I don't see those beeing a good fit unless the director is really going for the look of a "play" for comedies and drama. Personally I do not like that look for typical talk oriented scenes in comedies and dramas. Panaoramic, action, outdoor scenes it adds to the detail and looks good - to me.

Horror would be a mixed bag imo. Would be interesting to add to the depth and detail. Perhaps the director could get more clever in showing subtle hints of the creature or use the depth of screen to play with spatial awareness of the victims/protagonists. Most likely it would just expose shaky FX and ruin whatever suspension of disbelief the audience already had going. biggrin.gif

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post #96 of 223 Old 12-11-2013, 12:22 PM
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Why is 24 fps a better fit? It feels that way because in our minds the look of 24 fps is what we equate with film. However its only that way because that is what our mind is used to. Give it enough time and our minds will be more accepting of it.

I'm not saying 24 fps should be gotten rid of. Even if 48 fps or higher becomes the norm I could see filmmakers going back to 24 fps as an artistic choice.

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post #97 of 223 Old 12-11-2013, 12:24 PM
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Oh and by the way I called my local 20 screen megaplex and the person I spoke to said they will not be showing it in HFR. What is strange is the Hobbit website still lists them as an HFR theater.

I'm hoping there is just a delay in AMC adding HFR showtimes to their system. Yesterday I could find no HFR showtimes in north Jersey (and almost none in the 5 boroughs). Today I rechecked and at least two of the good AMC megaplexes have at least some showtimes.

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post #98 of 223 Old 12-11-2013, 01:03 PM
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Originally Posted by GoCaboNow View Post

I don't see those beeing a good fit unless the director is really going for the look of a "play" for comedies and drama. Personally I do not like that look for typical talk oriented scenes in comedies and dramas. Panaoramic, action, outdoor scenes it adds to the detail and looks good - to me.

Horror would be a mixed bag imo. Would be interesting to add to the depth and detail. Perhaps the director could get more clever in showing subtle hints of the creature or use the depth of screen to play with spatial awareness of the victims/protagonists. Most likely it would just expose shaky FX and ruin whatever suspension of disbelief the audience already had going. biggrin.gif
48fps is a tool, nothing more.
I'll leave it to filmmakers as to whether they wish to use it or not.

I do know I am in no hurry to bring 48fps to my HT.

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Why is 24 fps a better fit? It feels that way because in our minds the look of 24 fps is what we equate with film. However its only that way because that is what our mind is used to. Give it enough time and our minds will be more accepting of it.
Only time will tell....wink.gif

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post #99 of 223 Old 12-11-2013, 02:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Benson View Post

Why is 24 fps a better fit? It feels that way because in our minds the look of 24 fps is what we equate with film. However its only that way because that is what our mind is used to. Give it enough time and our minds will be more accepting of it.

I'm not saying 24 fps should be gotten rid of. Even if 48 fps or higher becomes the norm I could see filmmakers going back to 24 fps as an artistic choice.

I feel as though it's a better fit, partially because it's what I'm used to seeing in movies, but the overwhelming majority is simply that I don't like it for movies. I can see it being ok for a TV show, but for movies I t just pulls me out. I was excited for it, hoping I'd like it, but I just hated it. I am all for getting rid of judder, but not at the expense of making a movie look like video.

I'm hoping that filmmakers use higher frame rates as a tool, but one used sparingly. I was hesitant with the move to digital, but I genuinely like what digital brings to the table after seeing it the first time. I've seen what higher frame rates can do, even before seeing it in theaters. It's not that different from using FI at home. They both just look bad to me. Though I wish they didn't.

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post #100 of 223 Old 12-11-2013, 02:37 PM
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Originally Posted by lordcloud View Post

I am all for getting rid of judder, but not at the expense of making a movie look like video.
I really hate judder, but I would rather keep it than being constantly aware of the HFR when I watch something.

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post #101 of 223 Old 12-11-2013, 02:46 PM
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Originally Posted by oink View Post

I really hate judder, but I would rather keep it than being constantly aware of the HFR when I watch something.

Same here. I think the human brain can adapt to most things, and would adapt to the higher frame rate. I just don't want to. It takes me out of the movie because it just looks like something else that is not a movie. If it didn't look like video, I think I'd be more ok with it. But.......probably not. biggrin.gif

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post #102 of 223 Old 12-11-2013, 03:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Bob Benson View Post

Why is 24 fps a better fit? It feels that way because in our minds the look of 24 fps is what we equate with film. However its only that way because that is what our mind is used to. Give it enough time and our minds will be more accepting of it.

I'm not saying 24 fps should be gotten rid of. Even if 48 fps or higher becomes the norm I could see filmmakers going back to 24 fps as an artistic choice.

For sure... A director could simply decide to duplicate the 24fps into 48fps if he so chose....
Need a scene with a lot of fast panning? Don't double the frames for that shot.

People are fighting the HFR for the wrong reasons, IMHO.... I get the impression that people are conflating the idea of HFR with the frame-interpolation that their TVs are doing.
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post #103 of 223 Old 12-11-2013, 07:20 PM
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For sure... A director could simply decide to duplicate the 24fps into 48fps if he so chose....
Need a scene with a lot of fast panning? Don't double the frames for that shot.

People are fighting the HFR for the wrong reasons, IMHO.... I get the impression that people are conflating the idea of HFR with the frame-interpolation that their TVs are doing.

HFR and FI unfortunately look almost identical. Watching the Hobbit on hfr reminded me of FI 100%. FI without the artifacts, but it's not the artifacts of FI that I have the biggest issue with. It's the resulting video look.

I think most people don't like the hfr simply because they object to the look and how it just doesn't look like a movie. I don't think it's because of a nostalgic connection to film.

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post #104 of 223 Old 12-11-2013, 11:52 PM
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Originally Posted by lordcloud View Post

I think most people don't like the hfr simply because they object to the look and how it just doesn't look like a movie. I don't think it's because of a nostalgic connection to film.
Agreed.

I so So SOOOOOO wanted to fall in love with HFR...
But, like you said, it pulled me out of the movie.frown.gif

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post #105 of 223 Old 12-12-2013, 03:09 AM
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Whats the biggest difference between 1080/50i and 1080/48P? Its resolution.

Good movies are as rare as an on topic discussion.
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post #106 of 223 Old 12-12-2013, 04:50 AM
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Whats the biggest difference between 1080/50i and 1080/48P? Its resolution.

Silly goose, 48 is less than 50 so therefore it's garbage.
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post #107 of 223 Old 12-12-2013, 06:33 AM
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Silly goose, 48 is less than 50 so therefore it's garbage.

QED. biggrin.gif
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post #108 of 223 Old 12-13-2013, 09:30 AM
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I also was hopping I would like HFR with the first Hobbit. I was worried it would look like FI. Well from the very opening sequence I KNEW there was no way I was going to be able to get into the movie. It was so distracting to me, and like someone else mentioned it felt like using the wrong medium (video) for a cinematic presentation. Your brain has learned what film looks like and what video looks like and there is an expectation for what a movie should look like. Espcially in a fantasy film, 24p has a certain quality that is less like reality and so it allows you to get pulled into and have suspension of disbelief.

I do believe your brain would adapt to HFR over time, but we are not exposed to it enough to make that adjustment.

I went back the next day to watch the Hobbit in good old 24p and was able to enjoy it much more. This time, I am going with a non HFR non 3D RPX viewing. I want to just enjoy the movie, not try to fight my brain and be convinced that I like what I am seeing. And I still find 3D to be way over rated. If I like the film, I will go again and see it in 3D HFR to see it as the Director intended.
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post #109 of 223 Old 12-13-2013, 10:06 AM
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I also was hopping I would like HFR with the first Hobbit. I was worried it would look like FI. Well from the very opening sequence I KNEW there was no way I was going to be able to get into the movie. It was so distracting to me, and like someone else mentioned it felt like using the wrong medium (video) for a cinematic presentation. Your brain has learned what film looks like and what video looks like and there is an expectation for what a movie should look like. Espcially in a fantasy film, 24p has a certain quality that is less like reality and so it allows you to get pulled into and have suspension of disbelief.

I do believe your brain would adapt to HFR over time, but we are not exposed to it enough to make that adjustment.

I went back the next day to watch the Hobbit in good old 24p and was able to enjoy it much more. This time, I am going with a non HFR non 3D RPX viewing. I want to just enjoy the movie, not try to fight my brain and be convinced that I like what I am seeing. And I still find 3D to be way over rated. If I like the film, I will go again and see it in 3D HFR to see it as the Director intended.

+1000

I'm tempted to go see TDoS in 3D HFR. Tempted............

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post #110 of 223 Old 12-13-2013, 10:27 AM
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Originally Posted by lordcloud View Post

+1000

I'm tempted to go see TDoS in 3D HFR. Tempted............

Lol! Hold out and see it the way you know you will enjoy it first. After all directors intent can be wrong....even Peter Jackson....Shocking I know. If you saw the naked Dwarves scene in the Extended Unexpected Journey...well there ya go!
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post #111 of 223 Old 12-13-2013, 10:57 AM
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Lol! Hold out and see it the way you know you will enjoy it first. After all directors intent can be wrong....even Peter Jackson....Shocking I know. If you saw the naked Dwarves scene in the Extended Unexpected Journey...well there ya go!

I saw it Monday (almost) the way I want to see it. I might see it a few times to be honest. I have to see it one time in Atmos, in 2D, on a big screen, since that's the way I really want to see it. But I think once in 3D in HFR as well.

Director's intent is great, but yeah, I don't always agree with it. However, I do respect it and will always want a movie to be presented how the director wants it to be.....even if it's crap HFR. lol

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post #112 of 223 Old 12-13-2013, 11:00 AM
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I saw it Monday (almost) the way I want to see it. I might see it a few times to be honest. I have to see it one time in Atmos, in 2D, on a big screen, since that's the way I really want to see it. But I think once in 3D in HFR as well.

Director's intent is great, but yeah, I don't always agree with it. However, I do respect it and will always want a movie to be presented how the director wants it to be.....even if it's crap HFR. lol


I really want to see it in atmos but none nearby.
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post #113 of 223 Old 12-13-2013, 11:52 AM
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I really want to see it in atmos but none nearby.

Atmos sounds so much better to me, that I really never want to watch another movie in the theater with a lesser sound scheme.

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post #114 of 223 Old 12-13-2013, 03:55 PM
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Just saw this in HFR and it was outstanding. Love the look of it and it made the 3d pop like no other movie.

This type of film really is made fore this type of movie. It wouldnt work on a comedy or chick flick. Sci Fi and Horror would do great.



On to the movie I thought it was the best in the LOTR movies. Only Return of the King was a tad bit better
Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
Love the part when Sauron revealed himself to Gandalf.

Hated that Bilbo used the ring in some parts and you just wished he would use it all the time. He seemed like the smartest hobbit/creature in this entire movie yet didnt seem to use common sense in the most crucial situations. I guess they did this to keep the movie going.


Smaug voicing was excellent


Legolas looked like he aged ALOT. I understand this was a prequel but no makeup could cover up the fact that he has aged.

The red head elf was super hot

The Bear/Man thing was left hanging. We saw him once and he wasnt used again. Why was that?

Best part of the movie was no Gollum. He brings the movie down to levels Ive never seen
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post #115 of 223 Old 12-13-2013, 07:57 PM
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Originally Posted by DavidML3 View Post

Just saw this in HFR and it was outstanding. Love the look of it and it made the 3d pop like no other movie.

This type of film really is made fore this type of movie. It wouldnt work on a comedy or chick flick. Sci Fi and Horror would do great.



On to the movie I thought it was the best in the LOTR movies. Only Return of the King was a tad bit better
Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
Love the part when Sauron revealed himself to Gandalf.

Hated that Bilbo used the ring in some parts and you just wished he would use it all the time. He seemed like the smartest hobbit/creature in this entire movie yet didnt seem to use common sense in the most crucial situations. I guess they did this to keep the movie going.


Smaug voicing was excellent


Legolas looked like he aged ALOT. I understand this was a prequel but no makeup could cover up the fact that he has aged.

The red head elf was super hot

The Bear/Man thing was left hanging. We saw him once and he wasnt used again. Why was that?

Best part of the movie was no Gollum. He brings the movie down to levels Ive never seen

Yeah, agreed on Legolas for sure. This was about the same for me as the first one. First half was pretty slow and then a very good ending. The dragon chase scenes were pretty fun, borderline ridiculous - but still fun. smile.gif
I thought the HFR was controlled better and no bad soap opera scenes like the first. Still would have preferred the 2d version but kids...

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post #116 of 223 Old 12-16-2013, 12:13 PM
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Yeah, agreed on Legolas for sure. This was about the same for me as the first one. First half was pretty slow and then a very good ending. The dragon chase scenes were pretty fun, borderline ridiculous - but still fun. smile.gif
I thought the HFR was controlled better and no bad soap opera scenes like the first. Still would have preferred the 2d version but kids...

Was HFR really that bad in the first one?
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post #117 of 223 Old 12-16-2013, 08:13 PM
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I saw this in HFR 3D. I didn't see the first Hobbit movie that way and didn't see this one a second time in 24p to make a comparison. But, based on this sampling, I didn't like what HFR does to lighting effects. When Bilbo pokes his head above the trees to see the lay of the land, a warm light hits his face, supposedly to convey sunlight. But it looked like someone flipped a switch and turned on a heat lamp directed toward his face. To me, most of the light on the faces of these characters looked unnatural, electronically generated, exactly the way it looks when someone turns on a lamp or spotlight with a red/orange gel. And I was able to see (distracted by) make-up and wig hairlines in this movie like I haven't seen in a long time. Again, I don't know if that is the same as the 24p presentation, but that's the way it was for me in HFR. I was seeing more than I should, more than the make-up and hair department hoped I would see.

I so wanted to reach for a remote and turn off that ugly process every bit as much as I want to turn it off in tv retail showrooms or on my own tv at home.
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post #118 of 223 Old 12-16-2013, 11:51 PM
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I was able to see (distracted by) make-up and wig hairlines in this movie like I haven't seen in a long time.
This was also true with the first movie when seen in HFR.
The 24p BD didn't show it to such an extent IMO.

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post #119 of 223 Old 12-17-2013, 12:52 AM
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This was also true with the first movie when seen in HFR.
The 24p BD didn't show it to such an extent IMO.

Blobs of make-up on and around nose applications would change from close-up shot to close-up shot when those shots were apparently taken on different days/set ups. Stray strands of wig hair would get stuck on cheeks presumably because a trickle of glue had landed there but would disappear in the turn around shot of the same character because the make-up artist had caught it that time. I know this kind of thing happened thousands of times in previous movies, but the process and the lighting in those movies wasn't conspiring to make sure I couldn't miss it. In my very limited experience with it so far, HFR added nothing to the drama, the fantasy, the emotion and effectiveness of the movie. It only added an ugliness to the imagery, a distraction from the drama.

Of course, I would say much the same thing about 3D in this case. After the few seconds of pre-movie "wow" imagery showing us how amazing 3D effects can be, nothing in the actual movie was enhanced by the use of 3D as far as I could tell. Would the dangerous critters and dragon have been less scary and produced less suspense about what they were going to do next if I had been watching this in regular 2D? Hard to imagine that they would.
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post #120 of 223 Old 12-17-2013, 01:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hitchfan View Post

Blobs of make-up on and around nose applications would change from close-up shot to close-up shot when those shots were apparently taken on different days/set ups. Stray strands of wig hair would get stuck on cheeks presumably because a trickle of glue had landed there but would disappear in the turn around shot of the same character because the make-up artist had caught it that time. I know this kind of thing happened thousands of times in previous movies, but the process and the lighting in those movies wasn't conspiring to make sure I couldn't miss it. In my very limited experience with it so far, HFR added nothing to the drama, the fantasy, the emotion and effectiveness of the movie. It only added an ugliness to the imagery, a distraction from the drama.
My take exactly.
I do have to wonder whether PJ had 4K monitors on set....wink.gif

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