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post #151 of 182 Old 01-22-2014, 02:05 PM
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This addresses my earlier question indirectly and details how the deaths of our troops could have been avoided:
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/01/21/lone-survivor-moral-dilemma-cuffs-time-release/4659609/

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post #152 of 182 Old 01-22-2014, 02:18 PM
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Originally Posted by oink View Post

This addresses my earlier question indirectly and details how the deaths of our troops could have been avoided:
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/01/21/lone-survivor-moral-dilemma-cuffs-time-release/4659609/

Bullets would be cheaper.
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post #153 of 182 Old 01-22-2014, 02:43 PM
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Bullets would be cheaper.
True.
But what happens when the detainee in question is a 10 year old girl?
Can you imagine the fall-out?

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post #154 of 182 Old 01-22-2014, 02:55 PM
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True.
But what happens when the detainee in question is a 10 year old girl?
Can you imagine the fall-out?

Sure I can imagine it. It wouldn't be news though. You don't have to look real hard to see images of that sort that never make the "news" here.
Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
The team in the movie went over this exact item. A good ten minutes is devoted to it. Right or wrong they chose to follow the orders they were given and at no time did the movie pull back and ask "what about the children?"

If it were me I would have left them tied up with some rations and got the farm out of dodge.
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post #155 of 182 Old 01-22-2014, 03:01 PM
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Thanks, I have corrected my post. When I was writing it I was thinking of Roger and Me except that Roger was the other guy. smile.gif

D'oh! Thanks. Now my post makes no sense. wink.gif
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post #156 of 182 Old 01-22-2014, 03:11 PM
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Sure I can imagine it. It wouldn't be news though.
IF it was American troops involved, then yeah, it would be earth-shattering and could cause this country to pull out of a war.

My Lai was a big BIG thing during Nam.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/My_Lai_Massacre

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You don't have to look real hard to see images of that sort that never make the "news" here.
True, the 3rd World is full of stuff like that happening.

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Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
The team in the movie went over this exact item. A good ten minutes is devoted to it. Right or wrong they chose to follow the orders they were given and at no time did the movie pull back and ask "what about the children?"

If it were me I would have left them tied up with some rations and got the farm out of dodge.
That would have been my solution too.
And one reason why I think it was more than a "recon mission."

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post #157 of 182 Old 01-22-2014, 04:17 PM
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Isn't it already explained that by going that route, the goat herders would likely end up dead from freezing or eaten by wolves? Might as well just shoot them or cut them right on the spot. Either way, that can't be described as appropriate treatment of "civilians" no matter how you slice it, right?

That's the core to the whole plot, isn't it?...something goes South no matter which way they choose. So what do they choose, who accepts the burden, and how is the cost paid?...

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post #158 of 182 Old 01-23-2014, 01:54 AM
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Just got home from seeing this (finally) and wow, what a powerful and difficult movie to watch. Wahlberg and Ben Foster are absolutely at the top of their game. Fantastic pacing and stunning cinematography. I really enjoyed the post film facts about the village and as an avid shooter enjoyed watching a film portraying combat with some respect to proper weapon handling and manipulation. This was actually more graphic than I expected (if that is possible) and difficult to watch at times but again, a very powerful film and a must own IMO.
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Isn't it already explained that by going that route, the goat herders would likely end up dead from freezing or eaten by wolves? Might as well just shoot them or cut them right on the spot. Either way, that can't be described as appropriate treatment of "civilians" no matter how you slice it, right?

That's the core to the whole plot, isn't it?...something goes South no matter which way they choose. So what do they choose, who accepts the burden, and how is the cost paid?...
Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
At least tie up the trouble maker and let the slow elderly and kid help him down hill or go get help at a slower speed. Or even take them with you until you can get a signal instead of letting that little mountain goat mofo bring the anvil down on your head before you can even get the damn call out.

Bottom line is when half your team is advocating the extreme and things are about to boil over you have to make a call before it escalates beyond the options. It's easy for us to sit at a computer screen and call it how we would have done it but shyte don't go down like that when the time comes.
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post #159 of 182 Old 01-23-2014, 04:20 PM
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Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
At least tie up the trouble maker and let the slow elderly and kid help him down hill or go get help at a slower speed. Or even take them with you until you can get a signal instead of letting that little mountain goat mofo bring the anvil down on your head before you can even get the damn call out.

Bottom line is when half your team is advocating the extreme and things are about to boil over you have to make a call before it escalates beyond the options. It's easy for us to sit at a computer screen and call it how we would have done it but shyte don't go down like that when the time comes.
When your cover is blown, you EVAC pronto.
This is SOP, when recon or "spying" is involved.
If it involves tying someone up or taking them prisoner, so be it.
What matters is you get you and your team out safely.

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post #160 of 182 Old 01-23-2014, 04:25 PM
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Let's hope this doesn't into a what they should've done with the 3 goat herders lol

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post #161 of 182 Old 01-23-2014, 04:34 PM
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post #162 of 182 Old 01-23-2014, 05:16 PM
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Let's hope this doesn't into a what they should've done with the 3 goat herders lol
I don't think we will go down that path....wink.gif

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Three goat herders walk into a bar...
Never fails.tongue.gif

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post #163 of 182 Old 01-23-2014, 05:56 PM
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When your cover is blown, you EVAC pronto.
This is SOP, when recon or "spying" is involved.
If it involves tying someone up or taking them prisoner, so be it.
What matters is you get you and your team out safely.

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post #164 of 182 Old 01-24-2014, 12:00 AM
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Oh YEAH!biggrin.gif

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post #165 of 182 Old 01-25-2014, 04:32 PM
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Amazing story and movie. If you've read the book or watched the movie Luttrell explains their reasoning for letting the goat herders go. Who are we to question that?
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post #166 of 182 Old 01-25-2014, 07:29 PM - Thread Starter
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Amazing story and movie. If you've read the book or watched the movie Luttrell explains their reasoning for letting the goat herders go. Who are we to question that?



Because we paid to watch the movie so we can discuss, a very touching movie.
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post #167 of 182 Old 01-25-2014, 07:32 PM
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I don't question it. That's what makes this story so captivating. They could have taken an easier path, but they didn't. They also knew the trouble it would bring for taking the high road. They paid for it dearly. It's a heartening example of purity and integrity on the battlefield, even in the face of most adverse circumstances. Few regular folk could live up to that caliber of integrity when it comes to betting our own life on it.

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post #168 of 182 Old 01-25-2014, 07:34 PM
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I don't question it. That's what makes this story so captivating. They could have taken an easier path, but they didn't. They also knew the trouble it would bring for taking the high road. They paid for it dearly. It's a heartening example of purity and integrity on the battlefield, even in the face of most adverse circumstances.

Well said.


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Amazing story and movie. If you've read the book or watched the movie Luttrell explains their reasoning for letting the goat herders go. Who are we to question that?

I think the whole crew on that mountain questioned it. I would have as well.
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post #169 of 182 Old 01-25-2014, 10:10 PM
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I think the whole crew on that mountain questioned it. I would have as well.
I think it was Patton who said (and I'm paraphrasing), "the trick to war is not to die for your country, but to get the other SOB to die for his."

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post #170 of 182 Old 01-25-2014, 10:19 PM
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I think it was Patton who said (and I'm paraphrasing), "the trick to war is not to die for your country, but to get the other SOB to die for his."

I like it when Patton says:

"It's so cool, it's so hip, it's alright
It's so groovy, it's outta sight"
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post #171 of 182 Old 01-25-2014, 10:30 PM
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I like it when Patton says:

"It's so cool, it's so hip, it's alright
It's so groovy, it's outta sight"
What have I told you about drinking late?biggrin.gif

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post #172 of 182 Old 01-25-2014, 11:10 PM
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What have I told you about drinking late?biggrin.gif


Uhm. To do it a lot or something?
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post #173 of 182 Old 01-25-2014, 11:16 PM
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"No bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country."

George S. Patton

Not trying to pick, but the inclusion of "poor dumb" showed the sliver of humanity that Patton had. He was a warrior and had empathy but not sympathy for his enemies. IMO it's what set him apart.
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post #174 of 182 Old 01-25-2014, 11:25 PM
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Uhm. To do it a lot or something?
Yeah....biggrin.gif

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"No bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country."

George S. Patton
Thanx for the correct quote.

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Not trying to pick, but the inclusion of "poor dumb" showed the sliver of humanity that Patton had. He was a warrior and had empathy but not sympathy for his enemies. IMO it's what set him apart
He really was some kind of character.
He was "old school" before there was an "old school."

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post #175 of 182 Old 06-04-2014, 12:57 AM
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Watched this tonight. Totally kicked my ass. Must have got some dust in my eyes, or something. I was choked up. Both the AQ/PQ are reference. A first class presentation.

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post #176 of 182 Old 06-06-2014, 10:05 AM
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Watched this tonight. Totally kicked my ass. Must have got some dust in my eyes, or something. I was choked up. Both the AQ/PQ are reference. A first class presentation.
Saw it in the theater but can't wait to watch it with the missus on my HT.

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post #177 of 182 Old 06-20-2014, 07:40 PM
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I don't question it. That's what makes this story so captivating. They could have taken an easier path, but they didn't. They also knew the trouble it would bring for taking the high road. They paid for it dearly. It's a heartening example of purity and integrity on the battlefield, even in the face of most adverse circumstances. Few regular folk could live up to that caliber of integrity when it comes to betting our own life on it.

I just took our two grown kids for a quick San Diego area vacation before heading back to school. (As a retired vet,) we stayed on NAB Coronado. We had just screened Lone Survivor for daughter within the last couple of weeks. She immediately wanted the book. For the drive to SDO, I also got the audio CD. So, we were well prepared to admire and honor the guys we encountered there.


To the quote ... in the book, Lutrell describes how the decision kind of got pushed on to him. He specifically says that it was the worst decision he ever made. He says he would much rather have seen all the team survive to possibly defend themselves for their decision to not release the herders. Lest we apply too much romance to the decision in the movie or judge the team harshly, we must remember the reality that war is hell.


I really recommend everybody read the book to get insight that the filmmakers could not include. In the book, there is much philosophy and opinions of the elite warriors expressed. As I have occasionally pointed out, like many veterans, they don't give a crap about political parties, and resist strong opinions about policy. They/we do develop opinions about factors of character about our leaders from unit level to the CinC. Policy where it applies/affects rules of engagement (ROE) is the exception, and Lutrell comments extensively on this and how the bad guys know how to exploit it and the media to the detriment of the teams ... and all of us.


Another nice thing about the book is how much Lutrell covers "Indoc" and BUDS training. It's a great motivator to keep you in the gym ... or however you stay in shape.
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post #178 of 182 Old 06-20-2014, 08:51 PM
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After seeing the movie, the death scenes haunted me that whole night. It's not that they were overdone graphic, but they were really well done to make it linger in your memory. The idea of fighting to your last breath is especially poignant...their bodies exhausted to the limit and lung capacity expended until there was no more. It literally was the last dying breath. They fought bravely and valiantly to the end, and it was depicted in a more personal and grim sense (in a manner of authenticity), rather than dying in any formulaic giant Hollywood fireball.

This movie goes into that category for me, where it is utterly great, but I could never buy the disc. It's too emotionally dark for me to even ponder watching it again for "enjoyment" or "entertainment". It's not that kind of experience. You watch it once, and then you grow from that experience. Others may find it collectable, though, and I would fully endorse that, too.

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post #179 of 182 Old 06-23-2014, 09:37 PM
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I just took our two grown kids for a quick San Diego area vacation before heading back to school. (As a retired vet,) we stayed on NAB Coronado. We had just screened Lone Survivor for daughter within the last couple of weeks. She immediately wanted the book. For the drive to SDO, I also got the audio CD. So, we were well prepared to admire and honor the guys we encountered there.


To the quote ... in the book, Lutrell describes how the decision kind of got pushed on to him. He specifically says that it was the worst decision he ever made. He says he would much rather have seen all the team survive to possibly defend themselves for their decision to not release the herders. Lest we apply too much romance to the decision in the movie or judge the team harshly, we must remember the reality that war is hell.


I really recommend everybody read the book to get insight that the filmmakers could not include. In the book, there is much philosophy and opinions of the elite warriors expressed. As I have occasionally pointed out, like many veterans, they don't give a crap about political parties, and resist strong opinions about policy. They/we do develop opinions about factors of character about our leaders from unit level to the CinC. Policy where it applies/affects rules of engagement (ROE) is the exception, and Lutrell comments extensively on this and how the bad guys know how to exploit it and the media to the detriment of the teams ... and all of us.


Another nice thing about the book is how much Lutrell covers "Indoc" and BUDS training. It's a great motivator to keep you in the gym ... or however you stay in shape.
Very much agreed. Passing the big 40 recently and having been only working out for over a year, I can't say enough how much, especially as another number in the corporate desktop world, it makes a monumental difference in my energy, mood, and of course strength and appearance. As a growingly less active culture it is just crucial to find that active outlet that keeps you fit.

I read that Kitsch undertook a heavy-duty workout plan that was the brainchild of the soldier he portrays, Mike Murphy. The routine, dubbed the “Murph,” consists of a mile run, followed by 100 pull-ups, 200 push-ups, 300 sit-ups (although the real Murph has 300 squats) and then a mile run with a 30-50 pound weighted vest. Seriously insane. Just goes to show the level of commitment those men had to whatever came next.

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After seeing the movie, the death scenes haunted me that whole night. It's not that they were overdone graphic, but they were really well done to make it linger in your memory. The idea of fighting to your last breath is especially poignant...their bodies exhausted to the limit and lung capacity expended until there was no more. It literally was the last dying breath. They fought bravely and valiantly to the end, and it was depicted in a more personal and grim sense (in a manner of authenticity), rather than dying in any formulaic giant Hollywood fireball.

This movie goes into that category for me, where it is utterly great, but I could never buy the disc. It's too emotionally dark for me to even ponder watching it again for "enjoyment" or "entertainment". It's not that kind of experience. You watch it once, and then you grow from that experience. Others may find it collectable, though, and I would fully endorse that, too.
I can fully appreciate that. I have watched it more than a few times showing it to different friends/family. It hits me no harder each time and bothers me no less. It's not a matter of entertainment or enjoyment but a matter of appreciation for the heroism and sacrifice that is made for us and an appreciation for the effort and quality put in to the recreation of the events for a film that spreads respect and admiration for those brave souls.

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post #180 of 182 Old 06-24-2014, 05:14 AM
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I just took our two grown kids for a quick San Diego area vacation before heading back to school. (As a retired vet,) we stayed on NAB Coronado. We had just screened Lone Survivor for daughter within the last couple of weeks. She immediately wanted the book.
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I can fully appreciate that. I have watched it more than a few times showing it to different friends/family. It hits me no harder each time and bothers me no less. It's not a matter of entertainment or enjoyment but a matter of appreciation for the heroism and sacrifice that is made for us and an appreciation for the effort and quality put in to the recreation of the events for a film that spreads respect and admiration for those brave souls.
I have the utmost respect for these men and the more I read this thread the more I want to see the movie. I'll watch it tonight.
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