Steve Guttenberg asks if surround sound for music and home theater is on its way out? - Page 5 - AVS Forum
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post #121 of 146 Old 02-15-2014, 05:46 PM
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Originally Posted by benes View Post



For the tenth time:

MOVIES ARE NOT REAL LIFE.

I know some people find that hard to believe but its true. They are just images projected onto a wall in FRONT of you. If a phone rings in a movie I don't want to hear it coming from behind me any more than I want to hear it coming out of my own cellphone
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Surround sound might make sense if I could turn my head around and see whats actually making the noise. That's how it works in real life.
I'm seeing a bit of a contradiction here. You emphatically say movies are not real life (which I agree with), but you also complain that surround sound isn't like real life. But since you've already agreed that you're not watching real life, the response is, "so what?". It's a dramatic, cool effect to have the sound of, say, an airplane come from behind you and pan to the front speakers as it comes into your field of view. Same thing goes for the sound of someone knocking on a door or the sound of a telephone to the side or behind your field of view. You can hardly complain that's not "realistic", given that you've already agreed movies aren't real.
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post #122 of 146 Old 02-15-2014, 06:33 PM
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I guess my brain is just weird.

Finally! Something we can all agree on. wink.gif
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post #123 of 146 Old 02-15-2014, 09:25 PM
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Finally! Something we can all agree on. wink.gif

+ infinity
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post #124 of 146 Old 02-15-2014, 10:26 PM
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Originally Posted by benes View Post

When I'm in a theater and hear a noise come from the seating area it snaps me back into the reality that I'm sitting in a theater and not inside the visual world that is front of me. I guess my brain is just weird.

When mixed right, surrounds are supposed to add ambiance and give the impression of a complete, unbroken soundscape all around, even if the image is confined to line of sight. You usually don't notice the specific sounds, or at least not to where they should be distracting. However some movies have individual sounds that stand out, and that can be distracting if the viewer isn't properly immersed, or if it's blatantly distinguished. Mixing sound in movies properly isn't easy, and I think some directors/engineers go for the individual effect rather than the complete experience. That doesn't mean the concept is flawed, it's just that you have people who don't know how to fully implement it fiddling with the dials.

If done right, though, adding additional speakers actually improves it, enhancing the unbroken surround effect.

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post #125 of 146 Old 02-15-2014, 11:02 PM
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Among countless other examples, if you don't think surround sound/LFE adds an entirely new dimension as far as movie immersion goes, watch All is Lost on a quality setup and report back. I just watched this film and the audio plays a HUGE part in pulling the audience into the story and just atmosphere in general. There is no way this film would be as captivating and engrossing watching in stereo. One of the most 360 degree sound fields I have ever heard in my HT as the speakers just seemed to vanish creating this amazing audio all around and pulling you right onto the boat in the middle of the ocean. For those who appreciate movie audio, check this film out! cool.gif

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post #126 of 146 Old 02-16-2014, 05:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by benes View Post

Surround sound has always been a gimmick just like 3d.
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I've never felt I was missing anything when I watch a movie or a multichannel album in stereo.
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I watch everything on a 5.1 setup...

confused.gif

Why?
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post #127 of 146 Old 02-16-2014, 07:08 AM
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It's a typo. He meant "1.0" setup.

But it's a very GOOD 1.0 setup.

;)


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post #128 of 146 Old 02-16-2014, 10:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by benes View Post

Well again you're bringing up this "ambiance" thing. If that's all surround was used for I may not have a problem with it. But its not just used for that.

As I said you can find examples of individual effects in virtually any movie now. You can say its wrong but that doesn't change the fact that its happening.

I can only judge things from reality, not from the mythical perfectly mixed movie.

I gave an example from reality in my comment above but you never responded to it. Here is may comment repeated for you so you can respond:

"...but therein lies the essence of the problem with your argument.

What you see is ALWAYS "in front" of you. Once you turn your head, what was to your side is now in front. What you direct your eyes to see is what you see, no matter what.

Audio, on the other hand, is all around you.

Imagine this.

You are facing west, looking at a sunset. Someone walks up behind you. You hear his footsteps BEHIND you. You turn 180 degrees and are now facing east. You hear the same footsteps IN FRONT of you."

This example I give is from reality. The only way to duplicate this "real" situation in a movie is with rear speakers.
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post #129 of 146 Old 02-16-2014, 10:33 AM
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Originally Posted by benes View Post

As I said you can find examples of individual effects in virtually any movie now.

You're applying your judgment to this as if it affects everyone equally, when it doesn't. Just look at the responses to your posts in this thread alone.

If you're actively listening for them, yeah, of course you'll find them. But you'll find flaws in every aspect of movies, not just surrounds. Some people get hypercritical over editing cuts made, over the panning of the fronts, etc. But that doesn't mean everyone has a problem with it, or that it's as widespread a problem for everyone that it is for you.

Most people don't just sit there and think "okay, what's coming out of the rear left speaker?" If you find yourself doing that, even subconsiously, that's on you, not on us, not on the system, and it's up to you to ignore it or find a way to immerse yourself. If it means sticking with stereo, hey, you found your solution. But that doesn't mean it's everyone's solution or that there is anything wrong with surrounds with multiple speakers. Again, it comes down to that this hobby is surprisingly adept at allowing customization, and to belittle other people's choices by calling it a gimmick suggests to me that it's a you problem, not a problem with the system itself.

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post #130 of 146 Old 02-16-2014, 12:18 PM
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Originally Posted by benes View Post

I didn't reply because I have no idea what you are saying. If I follow your example that means when I hear these footsteps coming from rear speakers and turn around I should expect to see another screen that I can watch. I already brought this up.

You are saying yourself that in real life you turn towards the direction the sound is coming from instead of continuing to stare ahead. So I really don't understand what your example proves with regard to surround sound.

When you turn around, you redirect your VISION. What you see on the screen is representative of your VISION. When you turn around, the direction of your VISION perspective changes. In cinematic terms, the CAMERA perspective changes. There is no need for a screen behind you as those objects ARE there, but the thing is that you are not LOOKING at them. The screen is what you SEE. Turn your head, your PERSPECTIVE changes.

The point that you seem determined not to see is that VISION (with respect to film, video) is immediately unidirectional. AUDIO is omnidirectional.

And this is precisely how a film with surround sound works...just like REAL LIFE.

EDIT: added the word "you" before the word "seem" in the line "The point that you seem determined...".
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post #131 of 146 Old 02-16-2014, 05:09 PM
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Yep, the world is three dimensional, both sound and vision. If you lock yourself into a two dimensional video, that's all you get. When we get to holographic video ( not in my lifetime) it will all fit the Benes world....

Bobby 

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post #132 of 146 Old 02-19-2014, 12:36 PM
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You know what's a gimmick? Motion pictures. I want to watch a story in still photos that I can flip through by hand, daggummit!

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post #133 of 146 Old 02-19-2014, 04:44 PM
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You have pictures? You spoiled brat. I had to sit around the fire and listen to my elders tell stories. Long, boring stories about their forefathers and their forefathers before them. And it was all in mono.

And we were grateful we had even that. mad.gif

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post #134 of 146 Old 02-19-2014, 06:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Tulpa View Post

You have pictures? You spoiled brat. I had to sit around the fire and listen to my elders tell stories. Long, boring stories about their forefathers and their forefathers before them. And it was all in mono.

And we were grateful we had even that. mad.gif
Yeah, you should have been grateful.
In my day, we didn't even have sound.biggrin.gif

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post #135 of 146 Old 02-19-2014, 07:05 PM
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I just packed up my HKTS-14 surround system for freecycle/donation/whatever. Of course, I still had the cnet review from 4/14/04. The author? Why Steve Guttenberg, of course.

Small world.


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Did you really need to quote that entire post in your reply?
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post #136 of 146 Old 02-19-2014, 07:58 PM
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post #137 of 146 Old 02-19-2014, 08:48 PM
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Yeah, you should have been grateful.
In my day, we didn't even have sound.biggrin.gif
Remember when everything was black & white? wink.gif
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post #138 of 146 Old 02-19-2014, 10:33 PM
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Remember when everything was black & white? wink.gif

Hell, I remember growing up with two channels on the TV, and black and white no less. Memories of standing out in the back of the house turning the 20 foot antenna and listening for someone inside to yell and say when we had a picture.

I remember when we got out very first color television, still with only two channels, but with much better reception. One of the most glorious moments of my childhood was watching the Bugs Bunny Road Runner Hour in color for the first time.
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post #139 of 146 Old 02-19-2014, 11:59 PM
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The advance of surround sound continues...

This February 18, 2014, Korea.net article "10.2-channel audio becomes int’l standard" (link) talks about using the Samsung|ETRI 10.2-VSS speaker configuration to deliver 3Daudio for future UHDTV:
Quote:
"A 10.2-channel audio technology developed by engineers at the National Radio Research Agency (RRA) has been chosen as an international standard by the International Telecommunication Union (ITU), the UN agency responsible for information and communication technology. On February 7, the RRA’s technology was selected as one of eight standards to be used for next generation broadcasting."


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post #140 of 146 Old 02-20-2014, 02:12 AM
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Hell, I remember growing up with two channels on the TV, and black and white no less. Memories of standing out in the back of the house turning the 20 foot antenna and listening for someone inside to yell and say when we had a picture.

I remember when we got out very first color television, still with only two channels, but with much better reception. One of the most glorious moments of my childhood was watching the Bugs Bunny Road Runner Hour in color for the first time.
Many a starving student and young working persons had only black white TV's for years long after color was invented. I think growing up the only reason my parents got a color TV is that you couldn't buy a big black and white one, Packer football games might have had a factor in it too...

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post #141 of 146 Old 02-20-2014, 08:30 AM
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One of the most glorious moments of my childhood was watching the Bugs Bunny Road Runner Hour in color for the first time.

For me, the NBC peacock in color for the first time.


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post #142 of 146 Old 02-20-2014, 09:11 AM
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First show I saw in color was 'The Wild, Wild West'. I'll never forget it. Sadly, that doesn't seem to apply to my keys.
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post #143 of 146 Old 02-20-2014, 09:32 AM
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Now we're going back to only 10.2? What a joke. Is UHDTV going to be black and white too?

I smell a troll.
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post #144 of 146 Old 02-20-2014, 09:42 AM
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I enjoy SACD's and DVD-A's. The effectiveness of multichannel soundtracks depends on the artistry and skill of the sound mixer. Some can be very good, others not so much. But what Steve fails to mention in his article is that hi-rez discs also have an enhanced 2 channel track that's sampled at a higher rate than redbook CD. The higher the sampling rate, the closer to the original analog sine curve - and thus the original master tape recording - you can get. There's no question the high resolution stereo tracks on these discs sound better than the CD version, at least to me.

Please read...
http://www.realhd-audio.com/?p=1598
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post #145 of 146 Old 02-20-2014, 10:20 AM
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Thanks but that's a little over my head. What about reel-to-reel original master tapes? I would think that ri-rez or DSD recordings made from those would be superior to an "ordinary" noisy, hissy, multi-generational analog tape source. Garbage in, garbage out, as it were.
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post #146 of 146 Old 02-20-2014, 11:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by archiguy View Post

I enjoy SACD's and DVD-A's. The effectiveness of multichannel soundtracks depends on the artistry and skill of the sound mixer. Some can be very good, others not so much. But what Steve fails to mention in his article is that hi-rez discs also have an enhanced 2 channel track that's sampled at a higher rate than redbook CD. The higher the sampling rate, the closer to the original analog sine curve - and thus the original master tape recording - you can get. There's no question the high resolution stereo tracks on these discs sound better than the CD version, at least to me.

http://xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html

http://www.bostonaudiosociety.org/explanation.htm

http://www.bostonaudiosociety.org/bas_speaker/abx_testing2.htm

http://mixonline.com/recording/mixing/audio_emperors_new_sampling//index1.html

The irony is that it turned out that some of the "hires" recordings used in the BAS listening test were actually made from 16 bit sources, which meant that the people who loved their sound were actually praising 16 bit!
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