Oklahoma! (1955) coming to Blu-Ray finally? - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 16 Old 04-10-2014, 12:57 PM - Thread Starter
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They are screening a 4K restoration tonight in LA.

http://filmfestival.tcm.com/programs/films/oklahoma/

Actually, the exciting thing for me is they will be showing it at 30 fps which really does look and feel different from normal 24 fps movies.

from http://news.turner.com/article_print.cfm?article_id=6632 :
Quote:
This unique 4k presentation, painstakingly restored from 65mm Todd-AO elements by Twentieth Century Fox and Fotokem, will be screened at 30 frames per second—the same frame rate as when the film was originally released in 1955. The original 6-track soundtrack has been also restored and re-mastered at Twentieth Century Fox, in collaboration with End Point Audio and Chase Audio by Deluxe.

Presumably the Blu-Ray is not far behind?

Maybe it will be part of this boxed set on amazon:

http://www.amazon.com/Rodgers-Hammerstein-Collection-Exclusive-Blu-ray/dp/B00IZIGFNU/

Supposedly this ships at the end of this month.

Of course amazon has teased stuff like this before, but now that a 4K restoration *exists* at least it's not total fantasy.
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post #2 of 16 Old 04-10-2014, 01:03 PM
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It's absolutely included in the set:

Includes 8 Discs on Blu-ray:
• State Fair
• Oklahoma - Todd-AO
• Oklahoma - Cinemascope
• Carousel
• King and I
• South Pacific Theatrical
• South Pacific Extended roadshow version
• Sound of Music

Though you've missed out on the pricing. When I placed my order, the set was a bit over $70 IIRC.
Quote:
The set features brand new 4K digital restorations of The King and I and Carousel, the only two films made in CinemaScope55, and Oklahoma! meticulously restored in 4K from 8K scans of 65mm Todd-AO film elements in its original road show version at the unusual original frame rate of 30 frames per second.
http://www.hometheaterforum.com/topic/330364-the-rodgers-hammerstein-collection-blu-ray-available-for-preorder/?p=4073221
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post #3 of 16 Old 04-10-2014, 01:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RUR View Post

It's absolutely included in the set:

Includes 8 Discs on Blu-ray:
• State Fair
• Oklahoma - Todd-AO
• Oklahoma - Cinemascope
• Carousel
• King and I
• South Pacific Theatrical
• South Pacific Extended roadshow version
• Sound of Music

Though you've missed out on the pricing. When I placed my order, the set was a bit over $70 IIRC.
http://www.hometheaterforum.com/topic/330364-the-rodgers-hammerstein-collection-blu-ray-available-for-preorder/?p=4073221

Thanks a lot buddy. wink.gif They may have talked about it in the BD Forum, but I don't go there often.

This is a must-have, especially since I was going to buy a copy of Sound of Music anyway. Be nice if The Music Man, My Fair Lady and West Side Story were included as well. That would be a pretty sweet collection right there.
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post #4 of 16 Old 04-10-2014, 01:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by archiguy View Post

Thanks a lot buddy. wink.gif They may have talked about it in the BD Forum, but I don't go there often.

This is a must-have, especially since I was going to buy a copy of Sound of Music anyway. Be nice if The Music Man, My Fair Lady and West Side Story were included as well. That would be a pretty sweet collection right there.
With my old-timey, eclectic tastes, there's a lot more info there so I lurk for the latest news. Amazon originally priced it @ ~$120, then dropped it a week later to $74, only to raise it to its current, lofty price. Very glad I jumped when I did.smile.gif
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post #5 of 16 Old 04-10-2014, 02:03 PM
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Maybe it will drop again in a few months. I'll keep a look-out.
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post #6 of 16 Old 04-11-2014, 06:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by archiguy View Post

Thanks a lot buddy. wink.gif They may have talked about it in the BD Forum, but I don't go there often.

This is a must-have, especially since I was going to buy a copy of Sound of Music anyway. Be nice if The Music Man, My Fair Lady and West Side Story were included as well. That would be a pretty sweet collection right there.

Obviously they aren't included, a big mix-match of studios. Also, this is a Rodgers and Hammerstein collection, and those aren't R&H.
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post #7 of 16 Old 04-11-2014, 06:28 AM
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Originally Posted by WayneJoy View Post

Obviously they aren't included, a big mix-match of studios. Also, this is a Rodgers and Hammerstein collection, and those aren't R&H.

Yeah, I know. I'm just a silly dreamer [insert musical song & dance number celebrating plucky-but-determined underdog here _______ ]. biggrin.gif
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post #8 of 16 Old 04-16-2014, 12:01 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by archiguy View Post

This is a must-have, especially since I was going to buy a copy of Sound of Music anyway. Be nice if The Music Man, My Fair Lady and West Side Story were included as well. That would be a pretty sweet collection right there.
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Originally Posted by WayneJoy View Post

Obviously they aren't included, a big mix-match of studios. Also, this is a Rodgers and Hammerstein collection, and those aren't R&H.
There's another R&H musical film Flower Drum Song that tends not to show up in these collections , mostly because it's Universal not Fox (also because it's not really in the same tier of quality as the better loved titles mentioned above).

Anyway, it's taken almost 10 years to remediate the atrocity that was the 2005 "50th anniversary" DVD set of Oklahoma!

Recap: for various reasons, the DVD containing the Cinemascope version ended up looking better even though the historically interesting version was the Todd-AO version: *that* transfer was just a sorry mess. Note the two versions are in fact different movies: the actors had to perform each scene twice in front of different cameras, so different takes are used in the two movies. The Todd-AO version is generally held to be superior overall, although opinions can vary from scene to scene.

The Todd-AO version is also one of only a handful of movies ever shot at a frame rate higher than 24 . 30 fps is not quite "HFR" for you Avatar and Hobbit fans, but it's noticeably different from 24.

The lack of a decent transfer of the Todd-AO version has been an enduring source of sorrow for fans of the movie and I really hope the Blu-Ray will finally bring us a decent transfer for home exhibition.

Some links for fans of the Todd-AO version:

http://www.widescreenmuseum.com/widescreen/wingto7.htm
http://www.in70mm.com/todd_ao/archive/reflector/macrae/index.htm
http://www.doctormacro.com/Movie%20Star%20Pages/Nick%20Zegarac/Reviews/NZ%20Review%20-%20Oklahoma.pdf

More general background on the movie from TCM:

http://www.tcm.com/this-month/article/18550|0/Oklahoma-.html

Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oklahoma!_%281955_film%29
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Todd-AO
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post #9 of 16 Old 04-17-2014, 11:49 AM
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Note that Blu-ray is not capable of outputting 1080p video at 30 fps. However, the video could be encoded at 1080i 60Hz, with each interlaced field coming from a separate frame.

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post #10 of 16 Old 04-17-2014, 04:43 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Josh Z View Post

Note that Blu-ray is not capable of outputting 1080p video at 30 fps. However, the video could be encoded at 1080i 60Hz, with each interlaced field coming from a separate frame.
I was wondering about that.

If I have this wrong then forgive me, but wouldn't you want both fields from the *same* frame?

I conjectured a lot about 30fps over 1080i60 in this forum after watching the recent Sound of Music Live! production on NBC. (A couple quarrelsome folks turned that thread into flame war so I won't link to it, but anyway it's something I've given a lot of thought to.)
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post #11 of 16 Old 04-17-2014, 07:50 PM
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Originally Posted by NxNW View Post

I was wondering about that.

If I have this wrong then forgive me, but wouldn't you want both fields from the *same* frame?

That's what you would want, yes. But Blu-ray isn't capable of it at 30 fps. Either the video needs to be converted to 1080p24 by dropping frames, or interlaced to 1080i60. Which way Fox will treat the Blu-ray of this movie, I don't know. I believe both versions of the film will be included.

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post #12 of 16 Old 07-21-2014, 08:00 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by RUR View Post
Quote:Originally Posted by archiguy 

Amazon originally priced it @ ~$120, then dropped it a week later to $74, only to raise it to its current, lofty price. Very glad I jumped when I did.
I saw the boxed set today for $59. Which is an even better bargain than before considering the "list" price is now up to $200.
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post #13 of 16 Old 07-21-2014, 08:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh Z View Post
 I believe both versions of the film will be included.
And you would be correct! My copy arrived last week. I won't be watching any of them until I get my new theater finished, however. Seems wrong. 55" LCD won't cut it for these.
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post #14 of 16 Old 07-21-2014, 08:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NxNW View Post
I conjectured a lot about 30fps over 1080i60 in this forum after watching the recent Sound of Music Live! production on NBC. (A couple quarrelsome folks turned that thread into flame war so I won't link to it, but anyway it's something I've given a lot of thought to.)
I don't think current TV transmitters or cable companies can handle 30P. The cameras can, and the recorders can, and the post can, but if the distributors can't, you won't ever see it in 30P. I don't think there's a huge difference in the real world.

I did work on the 1990s THX transfer of Oklahoma in 30fps and in 24fps, and I wasn't impressed by the level of motion blurring and other issues, even in the 30fps version. My take is that the Todd-AO lenses from 60 years ago weren't that great, nor were the camera negatives, so we were kind of at the limit of what was capable in 1955. We did the best we could with the color, but I have no doubt it'll look 10 times better today with modern technology.
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The Todd-AO version is one of the most stunning Blu-ray's I've seen.
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post #16 of 16 Old 07-24-2014, 10:30 PM - Thread Starter
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Well I finally got the Blu-Ray and yes it's everything I had hoped for.

By the way, I want to first give respect to Marc Wielage and anyone who actually ever *worked* in the industry. We consumers would have nothing to talk about, negative or positive, without the efforts of those who have dedicated their careers to this.

Having said that, no matter *what* the original conditions were under which the DVD in the original boxed set was produced, the resulting DVD was basically a crime against movie history. Somebody somehow decided the only thing that could produce a watchable 480i movie from what they had to work with was to just low-pass-filter all the spatial detail right out. Which was doubly tragic because the "70mm" (65, whatever) negative should have had so much *more* detail than the 35mm cinemascope version, not less. The DVD was a blurry mess on a 25 inch tube. It was simply unwatchable on a 100 inch screen. And this from a movie that was originally intended to yield up fine detail even to those sitting close to 100 *foot* screens!

The DVD caused real suffering to fans of R&H, musicals, or home theater generally. This is not overstating the case. It made me angry every time I *thought* about it let alone *watched* it. (First world problems, I know. Maybe I took it a little too hard. ; > ) Imagine the disappointment of anyone who may have had actual personal memories of the glorious original theatrical exhibitions of the Todd-AO version when confronted with the miserable reality of the DVD.

Now that pain has been completely relieved. Like a dog that has been beaten, I would have been grateful if the Blu-Ray showed any improvement at all. And sure enough, the Blu-Ray is in fact quite detailed and finally rights some ancient wrongs just in delivering a sharp image.

Even better, it does successfully use the 1080i60 format to encode the original 30 fps material so that it plays back smoothly without any strange motion artifacts. On my setup at least, It.. Just.. Works. Not to belabor the point, but one should regard this film as a fairly rare treasure in cinematic history, one of only a handful of movies ever made at a frame rate higher than 24. I accept that the average person may not be particularly sensitive to the difference between 24 and 30, but to me 30 qualifies as almost "HFR". It's such a relief now to be able to finally watch the movie and enjoy the high *temporal* resolution without wincing at poor *spatial* resolution.

Plus some of the other minor irritations of the DVD (color breathing problems, some gate weave etc) are totally gone now. And the sound is very good.

It's like your favorite team going from worst to first. Not just glory, but *redemption*.

Thank you THANK YOU to everyone who has worked on bringing this movie to the home, in whatever stages along the way that ultimately led to this brilliant result.
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