censored Looney Tunes? (blackface, Confederate flags, etc.) - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
 8Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #1 of 58 Old 07-27-2014, 09:23 PM - Thread Starter
Newbie
 
FionaS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 2
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 0
censored Looney Tunes? (blackface, Confederate flags, etc.)

I'm rather late to the party - I was born in England in the 1990s - and grew up on a diet of syndicated Warner Bros. cartoons.

I was fairly shocked to find out recently how much was cut - not just blackface, Confederate flags and uses of the Southern term "The War Between the States", but also smoking, and sexist attitudes.

Is it ok to ask what people on here think?
FionaS is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 58 Old 07-28-2014, 04:27 AM
Moderator
 
PooperScooper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Leominster MA
Posts: 19,887
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 63 Post(s)
Liked: 158
So you are saying what you watched in the 90's in England was "cut"? If so, I'm not surprised. Since you saw the uncut tcartoons, do you think it was a British thing? A lot of cartoons made in the decade after WWII you'd have a hard time finding being aired, especially on "free" TV. On YouTube, do a search for "banned cartoon".

larry

Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work. -- Thomas Alva Edison

Last edited by PooperScooper; 07-28-2014 at 04:31 AM.
PooperScooper is offline  
post #3 of 58 Old 07-28-2014, 06:12 AM - Thread Starter
Newbie
 
FionaS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 2
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 0
I don't think people of the past should be treated like "criminals" as a lot of so-called progressives advocate. It's ridiculously easy for a "Japanese American support group" to get their 15 minutes in the media whenever a station shows a WWII-era cartoon that reflects the hatred against Japan of the time. I would just strongly remind said group, of Unit 731.
FionaS is offline  
post #4 of 58 Old 07-28-2014, 12:20 PM
AVS Special Member
 
rezzy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: The Matrix
Posts: 7,760
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 65 Post(s)
Liked: 39
Those kind of 'toons will never be on "free" TV again. I picked up a disc of LT and various others in a Wal-Mart about 10 years ago, and a few of them are quite un-PC (I think it was made in China). I'm keeping the disc, though. I want my daughter to see how ignorant people used to (can) be.

"I knew you'd say that"...*BLAM!*
rezzy is offline  
post #5 of 58 Old 07-28-2014, 12:25 PM
Advanced Member
 
lobosrul's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 857
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 32 Post(s)
Liked: 30
I have a vague recollection of watching one, as a child, where they went into Africa.. then deep Africa... then "deepest darkest Africa". There was like a black heartbeat and there were some rather racist caricatures of the natives. This was around the mid 80's I think, probably in syndication, but maybe on Nickelodeon. I bet its banned now. Also, I remember Bugs Bunny fighting the Japanese in one cartoon with some rather racist depictions: ie buck teeth, and huge thick glasses.

Anyways, my opinion is they shouldn't be aired on TV, at least not at times and channels targeted towards children. But certainly they should be released on DVD/BD/digitial, with a disclaimer.
lobosrul is offline  
post #6 of 58 Old 07-31-2014, 01:59 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Gary McCoy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: San Jose, California, USA
Posts: 6,261
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 18 Post(s)
Liked: 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by lobosrul View Post
I have a vague recollection of watching one, as a child, where they went into Africa.. then deep Africa... then "deepest darkest Africa". There was like a black heartbeat and there were some rather racist caricatures of the natives. This was around the mid 80's I think, probably in syndication, but maybe on Nickelodeon. I bet its banned now. Also, I remember Bugs Bunny fighting the Japanese in one cartoon with some rather racist depictions: ie buck teeth, and huge thick glasses.

Anyways, my opinion is they shouldn't be aired on TV, at least not at times and channels targeted towards children. But certainly they should be released on DVD/BD/digitial, with a disclaimer.
I own the Looney Tunes "Spotlight" collection Region 1 DVDs. There are indeed a few that would never be broadcast today. It is doubtful if you could legitimately stream them either. However you can buy the Warner Brothers cartoons on DVD if you spend the money - and the DVDs are identical to the versions that were broadcast in the 1950's on TV, to the best of my recollection.

Things that can't be had today online include:

1) The original Amos 'N Andy radio show (the one with the all-white actors who wore blackface makeup for publicity photos). There were not quite 300 distinct shows, However, last time I checked, you could buy them on cassette(!) and DVD from odd places like Cracker Barrel restaurants. As far as I know, these are all bootlegs - no residuals paid to the surviving actors or their estates.

2) The 74 original Amos n' Andy TV show broadcasts. Bootlegs do exist, apparently sourced from VHS tapes from OTA broadcasts. Very poor quality and as I said, bootlegs.

You can find (and should watch) the 2004 documentary "Amos 'N Andy: Anatomy of a Controversy" on Amazon Instant streaming.

3) The Disney/RKO film "Song of the South" has never been released on VHS or DVD or BR. It's a shame, it is a very early (1946) example of dubbing animated characters onto live action 35mm color film. You can stream the complete BBC version from YouTube if you wish, for free. (It is a 50Hz British format TV broadcast, and gets a little fuzzy on a big screen after conversion.) But don't bother with any of the DVDs that people sell you - they are direct dubs of the BBC online version, and are all bootlegs.

4) There were three DVDs of the Walter Lantz cartoons, identical to the three VHS tape versions that preceded them. Woody Woodpecker is featured in about half the cartoons, and his pals Andy Panda, Willy Walrus, etc. Some are just as racist as the Looney Tunes we are discussing. Be suspicious of any media under $100 per piece, there are lots of bootleg tapes and DVDs of these, as they are all collectible and rare.

AFAIK, all of these items were unapproved for broadcast in the 1970's by official requests filed by the NAACP, in the form of letters mailed to broadcast networks and studios. A collector paid $350,000 for an original hardcopy NAACP letter addressed to a CBS executive and postmarked 1976. Said executive had placed a copy of this letter in a certain Presidential Library, (he was a Cabinet member) and his widow sold the original (and now infamous) letter at auction in 2012.
Tack likes this.

Gary McCoy
The United States Constitution ©1791. All Rights Reserved.

Gary McCoy is offline  
post #7 of 58 Old 07-31-2014, 10:18 PM
AVS Special Member
 
hitchfan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 2,098
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 22 Post(s)
Liked: 58
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary McCoy View Post
Things that can't be had today online include:

2) The 74 original Amos n' Andy TV show broadcasts. Bootlegs do exist, apparently sourced from VHS tapes from OTA broadcasts. Very poor quality and as I said, bootlegs.

You can find (and should watch) the 2004 documentary "Amos 'N Andy: Anatomy of a Controversy" on Amazon Instant streaming.
The lack of wider and legitimate distribution of those Amos n' Andy TV show broadcasts is a shame. I've seen all of the available episodes and they are truly a master class in situation comedy writing, character development, line delivery and comic timing. And, unless my sensitivity meter is set way too low, I never noticed a portrayal or situation created for those characters to be "race based" or any more detrimental to a particular race or ethnic group than the same antics and hilarious back-firing schemes presented for the characters in I Love Lucy, The Honeymooners, Green Acres and hundreds of other sit-coms throughout history.

Last edited by hitchfan; 07-31-2014 at 10:22 PM.
hitchfan is online now  
post #8 of 58 Old 07-31-2014, 10:55 PM
Senior Member
 
Marc Wielage's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Hollywood, USA
Posts: 458
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 234 Post(s)
Liked: 124
I believe the O.P. is talking about the infamous Warner Bros. "Censored 11":

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censored_Eleven

The titles include:
Hittin' the Trail for Hallelujah Land
Sunday Go to Meetin' Time
Clean Pastures
Uncle Tom's Bungalow
Jungle Jitters
The Isle of Pingo Pongo
All This and Rabbit Stew
Coal Black and de Sebben Dwarfs
Tin Pan Alley Cats
Angel Puss
Goldilocks and the Jivin' Bears


They're all offensive to anybody who understands racial and religious stereotypes, but some (particularly the Bob Clampett productions) are really well-made and have some genuinely funny moments. From a historical point of view, the cartoons are very interesting to collectors and animation fans, but I can see why they would still be insulting and offensive to some. Some of the WWII cartoons are pretty rough, too, like "Bugs Bunny Nips the Nips."

WB announced about four years ago that they were going to do some kind of limited reissue of the cartoons for home video, but as of Summer 2014 it still hasn't happened. They were yanked from syndication a long time ago, so they haven't often been seen.
Marc Wielage is offline  
post #9 of 58 Old 07-31-2014, 11:04 PM
Senior Member
 
Marc Wielage's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Hollywood, USA
Posts: 458
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 234 Post(s)
Liked: 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by hitchfan View Post
The lack of wider and legitimate distribution of those Amos n' Andy TV show broadcasts is a shame. I've seen all of the available episodes and they are truly a master class in situation comedy writing, character development, line delivery and comic timing. And, unless my sensitivity meter is set way too low, I never noticed a portrayal or situation created for those characters to be "race based" or any more detrimental to a particular race or ethnic group ...
Maybe not the main Amos & Andy characters, but the side characters like "Lightning" are pretty bad.

The problem with this particular show is that CBS owns the 35mm negatives and mag tracks -- which (last I know of) are stored in their underground vault at Beverly & Fairfax in West LA. The copyrights are split between the Gosden & Correll estate and CBS, and though the estate wants the shows released, CBS steadfastly refuses to. Legally, they can't destroy the films or mags, but they also won't turn them over to the estate since they own them. It's an interesting situation.

CBS was embarrassed enough about the show from a corporate point of view that they just let the show lapse into the public domain, basically trying to pretend it doesn't exist. You wish we lived in an enlightened age where people could watch shows like this objectively and understand what was accepted 60 years ago doesn't play too well today, but is still an interesting historical record of pop culture. I think you can make a good argument that to pretend it never existed is wrong in the opposite direction.

BTW, the "Anatomy of a Controversy" documentary was actually done around 1983, not in the 2000s. The Wikipedia entry tells the legal background pretty much the way I understand it:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amos_%26_Andy
Marc Wielage is offline  
post #10 of 58 Old 08-01-2014, 12:50 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Gary McCoy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: San Jose, California, USA
Posts: 6,261
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 18 Post(s)
Liked: 43
That was in fact the content of the NAACP complaining letter, it "promoted demeaning racial stereotypes".

I feel that one has to understand the context of history to understand the Civil Rights movement.

Alex Haley (the author of the novel "Roots") would agree with me there, I believe. My Father was a USCG officer, and knew Haley as a "mess steward", one of only a handful of demeaning jobs available to Blacks even after President Dwight D. Eisenhower had officially ended segregation in the military. The system still persisted in the 1970's when I served in the USCG, although most of the Black mess stewards had been replaced with Filipino mess stewards.

A perfect example of the NAACP overreaction has been the controversy over the wonderful and entirely anti-slavery Mark Twain masterpiece Huckleberry Finn. Hollywood has never made a decent version of that great book and never will, as long as they shy away from using the forbidden "n" word. Haley himself did not shy away, nor did the miniseries version of his novel "Roots".

My daughter brought home a true abomination once in the late 1990's, the bowdlerized Huckleberry Finn in the NAACP-approved version sans the "n" word. I lost my temper at the next PTA assembly and told them that every student they had knew that word already and most used it on the street, even here in Silicon Valley. I told them that they could not teach History in context if they shied away from a word. Unfortunately I lost the argument, they removed the book entirely, rather than teach anything controversial.

Remnants of the racist "Jim Crow" era of Hollywood are still seen. The wonderful Bing Crosby musical Holiday Inn has a terribly racist stereotype found in the uniformed cook and her children, I wince to see it every time, she looks just like an old "Aunt Jemima" syrup bottle. But those scenes are always broadcast, the ones they cut are of Bing Crosby singing the original song "Abraham", on the Lincoln's Birthday holiday performance as related to Lincoln ending slavery - and with the entire white cast in black-face makeup.

I grew up in the South (Louisiana and North Carolina) in the era before the Civil Rights movement. I remember the Jim Crow laws and I remember seeing burning crosses on lawns with men standing around in hooded white sheets.

Most kids today when asked will tell you that the Civil Rights movement was about ending slavery. Nor can they tell you which US President emancipated the slaves. Nor do they know what the Jim Crow laws were or why they were ended.

Racism still exists today because we are afraid to talk of these things.

P.S. - I'm sure you are right about the Amos 'n Andy documentary. The NetFlix online listing says 2004, which is why I used that date.

Gary McCoy
The United States Constitution ©1791. All Rights Reserved.


Last edited by Gary McCoy; 08-01-2014 at 12:55 AM.
Gary McCoy is offline  
post #11 of 58 Old 08-01-2014, 02:12 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Sean Nelson's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Vancouver BC, Canada
Posts: 3,307
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by lobosrul View Post
I have a vague recollection of watching one, as a child, where they went into Africa.. then deep Africa... then "deepest darkest Africa".
Maybe it's because I'm Canadian or simply naïve, but I remember that "deepest, darkest Africa" line and until now I've never had any thought about what it meant other than a gloomy, dimly-lit jungle.
Sean Nelson is offline  
post #12 of 58 Old 08-01-2014, 03:00 AM
AVS Special Member
 
hitchfan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 2,098
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 22 Post(s)
Liked: 58
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc Wielage View Post
Maybe not the main Amos & Andy characters, but the side characters like "Lightning" are pretty bad.
And how is "Lightnin'" in the world created in that show more insulting a character than, say, "Goober" in The Andy Griffith Show? Not to mention "Ernest T. Bass"!

To isolate the character of "Lightnin'", who was brought in only briefly and occasionally in order to inadvertently create a bigger mess for the leads, from the overwhelming rest of the world of perfectly normal, sane, professional, lucid characters, including principles like Amos, the wives, the cops, the judges, the business owners, the neighbors, people in the restaurants, virtually everyone else other than trouble-maker "Kingfish" and his hapless co-hort, Andy (who was always only well-meaning and positively motivated), and attorney Calhoun, depicted in that show is a stretch of an excuse for anyone, including CBS, to be insulted or embarrassed by the show.

Btw, Nick Stewart's performance as "Lightnin'" is one of the marvels of the show. If you notice, the writers gave him virtually no real "jokes" to deliver. He was only there to take a phone call or take a message and somehow get it wrong or deliver it to the wrong person at the wrong time. He generated huge laughs out of almost nothing, based purely on a thousand subtleties in his character's demeanor, voice and looks. Genius, expert comedic skills.

Last edited by hitchfan; 08-01-2014 at 03:23 AM.
hitchfan is online now  
post #13 of 58 Old 08-01-2014, 03:56 AM
Senior Member
 
Marc Wielage's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Hollywood, USA
Posts: 458
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 234 Post(s)
Liked: 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by hitchfan View Post
And how is "Lightnin'" in the world created in that show more insulting a character than, say, "Goober" in The Andy Griffith Show? Not to mention "Ernest T. Bass"!
Well, Goober isn't insulting to a whole race of people. I'm from the South myself, and I don't give a crap about one doofus Southern redneck stereotype. We're getting off into a political/emotional area that I think is beyond the scope of this forum. Suffice it to say I'm not the first person to comment on Lightning, and also that there's a controversy on whether the show is racist or insulting.

I'm actually an admirer of the show and have an old friend who interviewed actor Nick Stewart back in the 1970s. Stewart and the other living cast members were dismayed that their show was regarded negatively in the 1960s and 1970s, and they frequently pointed out that they enjoyed working on the show and were treated well when it was in production.

I'm objective enough that I can say that many Hollywood films during their respective eras were regarded one way back then and another way now. You can make a good argument that there are terribly racist, insensitive scenes in Gone with the Wind, and yet that movie has always been in circulation. Amos & Andy seems to be a (pardon the expression) lightning rod for criticism, as was Beulah and a few other shows that are rarely seen or remembered today.

Go watch the Anatomy of a Classic documentary, which I think covers all of these topics in great detail. Despite their arguments, even that documentary got very little airplay in the 1980s; when it was aired in 1984 in LA, it was shown at 2AM on a distant station and got zero ratings. Thirty years later, I think the controversy is still very emotional and divisive.
Marc Wielage is offline  
post #14 of 58 Old 08-01-2014, 04:10 AM
Senior Member
 
quad4.0's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: here
Posts: 309
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 62 Post(s)
Liked: 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc Wielage View Post
I believe the O.P. is talking about the infamous Warner Bros. "Censored 11":

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censored_Eleven

The titles include:
Hittin' the Trail for Hallelujah Land
Sunday Go to Meetin' Time
Clean Pastures
Uncle Tom's Bungalow
Jungle Jitters
The Isle of Pingo Pongo
All This and Rabbit Stew
Coal Black and de Sebben Dwarfs
Tin Pan Alley Cats
Angel Puss
Goldilocks and the Jivin' Bears


They're all offensive to anybody who understands racial and religious stereotypes, but some (particularly the Bob Clampett productions) are really well-made and have some genuinely funny moments. From a historical point of view, the cartoons are very interesting to collectors and animation fans, but I can see why they would still be insulting and offensive to some. Some of the WWII cartoons are pretty rough, too, like "Bugs Bunny Nips the Nips."

WB announced about four years ago that they were going to do some kind of limited reissue of the cartoons for home video, but as of Summer 2014 it still hasn't happened. They were yanked from syndication a long time ago, so they haven't often been seen.
One must also remember one fact, that those WB classics were made specifically for adults. With adult themes and jokes. Stereotypes were made funny then, some today may not like this and consider it offensive. I grew up in the 50's and spent hours in movie houses. The same cartoon I saw then is not the same now! Edited beyond belief, ruining the intended points of what was funny then.
Today, a kid can't even play with a toy gun.
Marc Wielage likes this.
quad4.0 is offline  
post #15 of 58 Old 08-01-2014, 05:17 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Gary McCoy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: San Jose, California, USA
Posts: 6,261
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 18 Post(s)
Liked: 43
Toy guns are another example of something that is different. My Father attended an Intermediate school (grades 7/8/9) in rural Oklahoma in the late 1930's that had a rifle range in the basement. Male students studied Marksmanship while female students studied Home Economics.

Yes, that is correct: The safe use of firearms was taught in a Public School. Students were first taught and had to pass a written test on firearms safety, then they were taught to fire low velocity .22 "Short" rounds through single-shot top break rifles at paper targets. This training continued until minimum marksmanship scores were achieved by everyone. They were also taught the proper cleaning and lubrication and safe storage of those weapons. Finally they went on a Field Trip to a nearby military base where they were shown everything from pistols to field artillery, and fired infantry weapons (Springfield M1903 bolt-action rifles in .30-06 caliber) under the watchful eye of a US Army Sergeant.

In Post-WW2 and Post-Korean War Illinois, I attended a public school where the basement rifle range was used to store textbooks. Guns and gun safety were no longer taught.

It was still the case that justice was administered with guns on television. Combat was shown on TV, along with Rat Patrol, Steve Canyon, etc., all military shows featuring US heroes, set in WW2 and the (present time) Cold War.

My Father watched every Western on TV every week. Marshall Matt Dillon shot people in the streets on Gunsmoke, and did not smile. Wagon Train killed hostile Indians every week, and always drew the wagons into a circle in case of an unexpected attack.

It was during this period, when students were no longer taught about guns and gun safety, that the phenomenon of school shootings came about. Not to mention firearms accidents. After all, every cowboy and every cop and every private investigator carried a gun, and shot villians with it every night. From an early age, TV taught children that to become a hero, to be happy, all you had to do was pick up a gun and point it at another and pull the trigger.

The same basic lesson is still being taught on television. Heroes are people who pick up a gun, point it at another person, and kill them. Kids are now indoctrinated from an early age in how to be a hero and they are NEVER taught basic firearm safety or what to do when you encounter a gun.

I taught my kid to 1) Not touch the gun. 2) Find an adult and tell them. 3) If another kid has a gun, leave the area first, then find an adult and tell them. Basic lessons repeated by me until she could parrot back these rules upon demand. Had she expressed the slightest interest (she did not) I was prepared to teach firearm safety by the numbers, just as my Father had taught me, using the same .22 rifle and .410 shotgun.

But most kids learn all they ever know about firearms from TV and movies. The basic lesson is pick up the gun, point it at another person, pull the trigger, and then enjoy being a hero.

Just to bring this thread full circle, I worked with a woman from England while I was raising my kid. When I asked her what she had taught her own children about firearms, she told me indignantly that she did not like guns and did not permit her children to talk of them.

I pointed out that firearms safety was just as important a lesson as how to safely cross a busy street. This made her so angry that we had few words after that.

Gary McCoy
The United States Constitution ©1791. All Rights Reserved.


Last edited by Gary McCoy; 08-01-2014 at 05:27 AM.
Gary McCoy is offline  
post #16 of 58 Old 08-01-2014, 05:41 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Aliens's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Virginia
Posts: 7,873
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 129 Post(s)
Liked: 335
Quote:
Originally Posted by quad4.0 View Post
Today, a kid can't even play with a toy gun.
Sure they can, just visit Amazon and you'll see plenty, but they can't take them to school.
Aliens is offline  
post #17 of 58 Old 08-01-2014, 08:50 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Tack's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Valencia, Ca
Posts: 3,568
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 311 Post(s)
Liked: 745
I understand the concern over some of these old Loony Toons, but has anyone ever seen an episode of Family Guy? "Old" inappropriate is bad but "New" inappropriate is OK?
Will2007 likes this.
Tack is offline  
post #18 of 58 Old 08-01-2014, 09:55 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Josh Z's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Planet Boston, source of the spice, Melange.
Posts: 20,223
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 412 Post(s)
Liked: 395
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary McCoy View Post
3) The Disney/RKO film "Song of the South" has never been released on VHS or DVD or BR. It's a shame, it is a very early (1946) example of dubbing animated characters onto live action 35mm color film. You can stream the complete BBC version from YouTube if you wish, for free. (It is a 50Hz British format TV broadcast, and gets a little fuzzy on a big screen after conversion.) But don't bother with any of the DVDs that people sell you - they are direct dubs of the BBC online version, and are all bootlegs.
Song of the South was released on PAL VHS in Europe, but never America. It was also officially released on NTSC Laserdisc in Hong Kong and Japan. The Japanese disc has a slightly better video transfer (they both look pretty crappy by modern standards), but is burdened with large, obtrusive Japanese subtitles during the musical numbers.

Josh Z
Writer/Editor, High-Def Digest (Blog updated daily!)
Curator, Laserdisc Forever

My opinions are my own, and do not necessarily reflect those of my employers.

Josh Z is offline  
post #19 of 58 Old 08-01-2014, 12:45 PM
AVS Special Member
 
hitchfan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 2,098
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 22 Post(s)
Liked: 58
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc Wielage View Post
Well, Goober isn't insulting to a whole race of people.

Go watch the Anatomy of a Classic documentary, which I think covers all of these topics in great detail. Despite their arguments, even that documentary got very little airplay in the 1980s; when it was aired in 1984 in LA, it was shown at 2AM on a distant station and got zero ratings. Thirty years later, I think the controversy is still very emotional and divisive.
Well, I don't think the character of Lightnin' was insulting to a whole race of people in its context any more than the character of Georgette Franklin Baxter (The Mary Tyler Moore Show) was insulting to all female blondes.

Did you mean Amos n' Andy: Anatomy of a Controversy? If so, I did see that documentary. It was many years ago but, as I recall, it was mostly then current black actors/entertainers relating how much they and their family loved the show growing up, how funny and well done it was and how it was an over-reaction by the NAACP to object to it so virulently and pressure the network to pull it. I'm not saying everyone interviewed in the doc felt that way finally and conclusively because it was definitely framed in, as the title states, a "controversy". But that is the predominant impression I had of the doc.

I spent a few weeks about 4 years ago watching every available episode of Amos n' Andy, mindful of the controversy, watching for evidence of the "insulting to a whole race of people" aspect of it. Sorry, but I just didn't see it. No more than depictions of Ralph Kramden and Ed Norton were insulting to a whole borough in New York City. Now, if one thought the entire show was filled with dim-witted Lightnin' characters, thieves, con artists and muggers or something, then I would readily accept the charge. But that isn't what is actually in that show. The entire backdrop of black townspeople in the show is one as positive, wholesome, honest, upstanding, and All-American as anything you'd see in Father Knows Best. But against that backdrop is a small handful of characters who keep getting in and out of mischief the same way Lucy and Ethel or Ralph and Norton did. Just like virtually every "white" sit-com ever made.

Anyway, to my mind, the greatest slight for a generation of black entertainers in the pulling of the show was that, if it had been kept on for more than a couple of seasons and in reruns, perhaps a much larger percentage of TV viewers by the end of the 1950s and into the 1960s would have known and justifiably revered the names of actors Alvin Childress, Spencer Williams, the great Tim Moore, Johnny Lee, Ernestine Wade, Amanda Randolph, Nick Stewart, et al about as well as they knew and revered the names Lucille Ball, Desi Arnaz, Phil Silvers, Jackie Gleason, Bob Cummings, et al.

Last edited by hitchfan; 08-01-2014 at 01:02 PM.
hitchfan is online now  
post #20 of 58 Old 08-01-2014, 12:47 PM
AVS Special Member
 
General Kenobi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Kalifornistan
Posts: 5,923
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 82 Post(s)
Liked: 357
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary McCoy View Post
That was in fact the content of the NAACP complaining letter, it "promoted demeaning racial stereotypes".

I feel that one has to understand the context of history to understand the Civil Rights movement.

Alex Haley (the author of the novel "Roots") would agree with me there, I believe. My Father was a USCG officer, and knew Haley as a "mess steward", one of only a handful of demeaning jobs available to Blacks even after President Dwight D. Eisenhower had officially ended segregation in the military. The system still persisted in the 1970's when I served in the USCG, although most of the Black mess stewards had been replaced with Filipino mess stewards.

A perfect example of the NAACP overreaction has been the controversy over the wonderful and entirely anti-slavery Mark Twain masterpiece Huckleberry Finn. Hollywood has never made a decent version of that great book and never will, as long as they shy away from using the forbidden "n" word. Haley himself did not shy away, nor did the miniseries version of his novel "Roots".

My daughter brought home a true abomination once in the late 1990's, the bowdlerized Huckleberry Finn in the NAACP-approved version sans the "n" word. I lost my temper at the next PTA assembly and told them that every student they had knew that word already and most used it on the street, even here in Silicon Valley. I told them that they could not teach History in context if they shied away from a word. Unfortunately I lost the argument, they removed the book entirely, rather than teach anything controversial.

Remnants of the racist "Jim Crow" era of Hollywood are still seen. The wonderful Bing Crosby musical Holiday Inn has a terribly racist stereotype found in the uniformed cook and her children, I wince to see it every time, she looks just like an old "Aunt Jemima" syrup bottle. But those scenes are always broadcast, the ones they cut are of Bing Crosby singing the original song "Abraham", on the Lincoln's Birthday holiday performance as related to Lincoln ending slavery - and with the entire white cast in black-face makeup.

I grew up in the South (Louisiana and North Carolina) in the era before the Civil Rights movement. I remember the Jim Crow laws and I remember seeing burning crosses on lawns with men standing around in hooded white sheets.

Most kids today when asked will tell you that the Civil Rights movement was about ending slavery. Nor can they tell you which US President emancipated the slaves. Nor do they know what the Jim Crow laws were or why they were ended.

Racism still exists today because we are afraid to talk of these things.

P.S. - I'm sure you are right about the Amos 'n Andy documentary. The NetFlix online listing says 2004, which is why I used that date.
I would argue it is worse for the same and other reasons but very much agree.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tack View Post
I understand the concern over some of these old Loony Toons, but has anyone ever seen an episode of Family Guy? "Old" inappropriate is bad but "New" inappropriate is OK?
I was going to make the same point, South Park can be added in there as well.

My Rig

Kenobi's 31 Days of Horror:

 

2012

2011

2010

2009

General Kenobi is offline  
post #21 of 58 Old 08-01-2014, 01:02 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Bismarck440's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: NE Ohio... AKA the angry white planet Ohth
Posts: 1,269
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 81 Post(s)
Liked: 20
Then again we can say the same for Scooby Doo

http://trollpasta.wikia.com/wiki/Scooby_Doo_Theory

Now I wondered why those episoides I enjoyed as a kid in the early '70's disappeared.

Marc Wielage likes this.
Bismarck440 is offline  
post #22 of 58 Old 08-01-2014, 09:24 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Sean Nelson's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Vancouver BC, Canada
Posts: 3,307
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary McCoy View Post
Racism still exists today because we are afraid to talk of these things.

Exactly. What the heck has happened in America where you can't say "n*gger" even to criticize it? Don't people understand that the words aren't the problem, it's how you use them?

I was similarly surprised at the angst over actors made to look oriental in the "Cloud Atlas" thread. The sins of the blackface era and degrading stereotypical portrayals of Asians are being extended to any actor who plays any race other than his own, even if the portrayal is a positive one. And now there seems to be a debate starting about whether it's "OK" for straight people to portray gays. Eric Stonestreet is hilarious his portrayal (along with Jesse Tyler Ferguson) of a gay couple on "Modern Family" is very positive - IMHO it would be crazy complain about it.

Come on, people - don't waste your energy on the irrelevant stuff. Save it for the real issues, there are still plenty of them and they're far more important.
Sean Nelson is offline  
post #23 of 58 Old 08-02-2014, 04:35 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Gary McCoy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: San Jose, California, USA
Posts: 6,261
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 18 Post(s)
Liked: 43
To those of you who wish to understand the controversy over the "Censored Eleven" cartoons, here are links to four of them in the Internet Archive:

https://archive.org/details/MerrieMe...HallelujahLand

https://archive.org/details/UncleTomsBungalow

https://archive.org/details/TinPanAlleyCats1943

https://archive.org/details/Goldiloc...JivinBears1944

All four cartoons are from the "Merrie Melodies" series. These four are the ones where the copyright lapsed without being renewed, they are therefore in the public domain and posting links to them is allowable by AVS rules. Ted Turner did renew copyrights on the remaining seven cartoons, and swore they would never again be seen. Please do not post links to any of those, even if you were to search for and find such.

Warning: Cartoon characters are drawn in "Blackface" style, and racial stereotypes are indeed upon display.

For the record, I was not offended. Make up your own mind about this material, that is the whole point.

Gary McCoy
The United States Constitution ©1791. All Rights Reserved.

Gary McCoy is offline  
post #24 of 58 Old 08-02-2014, 05:01 AM
Moderator
 
PooperScooper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Leominster MA
Posts: 19,887
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 63 Post(s)
Liked: 158
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary McCoy View Post
To those of you who wish to understand the controversy over the "Censored Eleven" cartoons, here are links to four of them in the Internet Archive:

https://archive.org/details/MerrieMe...HallelujahLand

https://archive.org/details/UncleTomsBungalow

https://archive.org/details/TinPanAlleyCats1943

https://archive.org/details/Goldiloc...JivinBears1944

All four cartoons are from the "Merrie Melodies" series. These four are the ones where the copyright lapsed without being renewed, they are therefore in the public domain and posting links to them is allowable by AVS rules. Ted Turner did renew copyrights on the remaining seven cartoons, and swore they would never again be seen. Please do not post links to any of those, even if you were to search for and find such.

Warning: Cartoon characters are drawn in "Blackface" style, and racial stereotypes are indeed upon display.

For the record, I was not offended. Make up your own mind about this material, that is the whole point.
At the end of the first cartoon, is hey just saying "That's all folks"? The audio is muted or cut.

larry

Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work. -- Thomas Alva Edison
PooperScooper is offline  
post #25 of 58 Old 08-02-2014, 08:52 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Gary McCoy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: San Jose, California, USA
Posts: 6,261
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 18 Post(s)
Liked: 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by PooperScooper View Post
At the end of the first cartoon, is hey just saying "That's all folks"? The audio is muted or cut.

larry
That is what I think he says.

Gary McCoy
The United States Constitution ©1791. All Rights Reserved.

Gary McCoy is offline  
post #26 of 58 Old 08-02-2014, 10:00 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Shaded Dogfood's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Terminus and the Lake of Light
Posts: 4,851
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 34 Post(s)
Liked: 35
Even the hallowed Walt Disney indulged in some pretty savage stereotypes in the name of "humor." There are multiple examples on the "Mickey Mouse in B&W, Volume 2" treasures set.

CW Hinkle
Shaded Dogfood is offline  
post #27 of 58 Old 08-02-2014, 10:12 AM
AVS Special Member
 
rezzy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: The Matrix
Posts: 7,760
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 65 Post(s)
Liked: 39
Someone here several years ago posted some pics from "deleted scenes" from Disney's Fantasia; I was like, wow!

"I knew you'd say that"...*BLAM!*
rezzy is offline  
post #28 of 58 Old 08-02-2014, 06:50 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Gary McCoy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: San Jose, California, USA
Posts: 6,261
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 18 Post(s)
Liked: 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by rezzy View Post
Someone here several years ago posted some pics from "deleted scenes" from Disney's Fantasia; I was like, wow!
Fantasia was censored in 1969, there is no more accurate word. The "Pastoral Symphony" segment had a Black-looking female centaur who was acting as a drink server, in what was considered a stereotype of a Black domestic servant. These scenes were excised from the 1969 re-issue, along with some of the Deems Taylor narration, the running time shrank from the original 124 minutes to 115 minutes.

In the year 2000 60th Anniversary digital remastering, the excised scenes were restored, but the Black centaur was then removed using a combination of digital re-framing (cropping) and digital editing.

All currently available versions of Fantasia are based on the 2000 edit, sans the Black centaur.

Gary McCoy
The United States Constitution ©1791. All Rights Reserved.

Gary McCoy is offline  
post #29 of 58 Old 08-09-2014, 05:38 PM
AVS Special Member
 
wuther's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 1,439
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 117 Post(s)
Liked: 33
While I think the disc based version should be uncensored I cannot deny the cartoons depicting Japanese were quite racist. Mind you rabid racial stereotyping has not gone away in media, just morphed into Islamophobia with which anything can be said and gotten away with it but not if you replace Muslims with literally any other ethnic group. I am sure some will try to prove me right.
wuther is offline  
post #30 of 58 Old 08-12-2014, 09:36 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Bismarck440's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: NE Ohio... AKA the angry white planet Ohth
Posts: 1,269
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 81 Post(s)
Liked: 20
Watching the later episodes of the Cosby Series Fat Albert, as the 'white' population was intigrated into the show, they seemed to be the ones stealing, using drugs ect. Cosby always taught a moral within the 1/2 hr series, at the time I never noticed, but now it's ovbious ... the White Kids around Philadelphia were the real troublemakers!

Reversed biased?? I don't care, it still was one of my favorite 'toons!
Bismarck440 is offline  
Reply Movies, Concerts, and Music Discussion

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off