OFFICIAL LOTR: The Two Towers DVD Review Thread - Page 5 - AVS Forum
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post #121 of 144 Old 09-03-2003, 05:05 PM
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I'll agree that the fake Aragorn death was needless, but the warg attack itself was cool as hell (especially Legolas letting his arrows fly and then his one-armed swing onto the horse).

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post #122 of 144 Old 09-03-2003, 05:22 PM
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what I find amazing about this DVD is the price variations I am seeing it selling for. I picked it up for 15 bucks at walmart and just saw it today at a convenience store selling for $29.95. I almost gagged when the clerk told me how much they are selling it for.

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post #123 of 144 Old 09-03-2003, 08:18 PM
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I don't mind the Warg battle at all. It is one of the best sequences of the film. That Legolas scence got people in the theater going "Sweeeeet".
I love turning up the Surround Sound and hearing the thud of the Horse and Warg collision in the begining of the battle. Awesome. The Warg animation is flawless. The frame where Gimli says "let me place my axe on your pretty face" that shot of the warg looks real.

Ok, we understand Aragorn and Arwen are in a love quandry and somehow their bond is going to help drive Aragorn but come on. The only thing I love about Arwen scenes is the Score Howard Shore Shovels out. Very beautiful music.

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post #124 of 144 Old 09-03-2003, 08:21 PM
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Just one of me here......I think. Damn that Gollum thing is rubbing off.

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post #125 of 144 Old 09-04-2003, 09:08 AM
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Just as long as you know Peter Jackson first learned of LOTR after watching and LOVING the Ralph Bakshi version. He even watched it many times during production of his own versions because he liked it so much. The scene where the Ringwraith is sniffing for the ring (FOTR) was outright stolen from Bakshi's. Also, Jackson even payed homage to Bakshi's movie, listen to his audio commentary on the EE of FOTR.

Yes, I understand exactly the many reasons most people didn't/still don't like the Bakshi version, but I love it. It's all opinion. I love the soundtrack in Bakshi's most of all.

But if I had to pick one to keep, it'd be Jackson's version. Just realize at least enough that there is more than 1 person in this world who loves Bakshi's interpretation of the books, not the least of which is Peter Jackson himself.

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post #126 of 144 Old 09-04-2003, 11:00 AM
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The thing that bothered me the most about the TT, and this may have been mentioned before, is the 180 degree change in the character of Faramir. He was the "anti-Borimir" in the books. Rational, not lustful for power and even handed. Not easily swayed by the power of the ring. I don't understand why PJ, had to change his character so much. He was a nice contrast to Borimir's character.
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post #127 of 144 Old 09-04-2003, 11:03 AM
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hoss, I agree with you that he shouldn't have changed Faramir's character, but I feel that he probably did it to further show how influencial and powerful the Ring is and how virtually no one is excempt from it's evil control.
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post #128 of 144 Old 09-04-2003, 12:54 PM
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I think it was to get Frodo and Sam to Osgilliath for whatever reason he did that.

I think the EE edition will reveal more about the events in the movie. There will certainly be more devolopment in certain events namely with Frodo and Gollum and Faramir, along with the defeat of the Uruks in helms deep and the defeat of Saruman in Isengard. I think that Jackson will have to scrap Sams little speech at the end of the TT to make way for it. Most of the extentions in the EE edition take place in connection with what is going on on screen while he is speeking to Frodo. They my leave it in but they we won't be seeing those events unfold during it. That I think will resolve all the conflicts much more thouroughly than the Theatrical Version.

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post #129 of 144 Old 09-04-2003, 06:31 PM
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The thing that bothered me the most about the TT, and this may have been mentioned before, is the 180 degree change in the character of Faramir. He was the "anti-Borimir" in the books. Rational, not lustful for power and even handed. Not easily swayed by the power of the ring. I don't understand why PJ, had to change his character so much. He was a nice contrast to Borimir's character.
PJ has corrected an inconsistency in the books. Everyone including Gandalf, Galadriel were not immune to the ring. Yet here comes Faramir - an aberration to what had been developed previously in the book.

If Faramir is not tempted by the ring why is he not the ringbearer? Why is he not destined to become the leader of men? Is he above Aragorn?

PJ has taken his character and made him consistent in his reaction to the ring and - as will be seen in the EE - made his relationship with his father the driving force. In the movie he does not seek power, rather the approval of his father.

I never saw Faramir in the movie lusting for the ring and/or power. The only thing changed was his receptiveness to the ring.

IMHO PJ has improved not only the Boromir character but the Faramir character as well. This will play out in the EE and ROTK.

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post #130 of 144 Old 09-04-2003, 06:43 PM
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Wow, Dean, I couldn't disagree more strenuously. PJ has ruined one of Tolkien's central ideas. The ring would absolutely warp Faramir- if he was of a character to try and claim it. He is wise and good enough to reject the implications of the ring and understand its corrupting nature, just as Gandalf and Galadriel do. Thus, he is spared its temptation and inevitable ruin, for of course if he is exposed to it for long he would succumb. In fact, the movie is more wrong because it implies Faramir desired the ring, was in its presence for a time and then did what Boromir could not- voluntarily turn away from it. I don't think he would have actually been able to do this given his prior disposition to desire the power of the ring. I don't think Tolkien ever meant to imply that all humans are so weak the mere presence of the ring in the room with them corrupted them. Quite the opposite. This idea is now lost. I also object to Aragorn's weaknesses on similar grounds.

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post #131 of 144 Old 09-04-2003, 08:21 PM
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Well said Fred, I heartily agree. Lou, don't take offense, but I think Tolkien spent a little more time contemplating the characters he created than PJ has in his adaptation. IMHO, I think he (Tolkien) purposefully contrasted Faramir to Boromir.
If memory serves me correctly, Denethor favored Boromir more so than Faramir. Where Boromir was overtly bold and wanted glory for Gondor, Faramir was more cautioned and reasoned, more Aragorn like, if you will. Furthermore, by sending the ring bearer on his way, Faramir proves wiser than both Denethor and Boromir. This contrast served in my view to sort of make Faramir more the outcast in Denethor's eyes, although he (Denethor) later realizes his mistake. The silly thing is, that in the movie, Faramir does eventually send the ring bearer on his way like in the book, although in this case Frodo is the wise one who convinces Faramir to abandon the ring. Thus the only thing PJ accomplished, in my eyes, was to build up the Frodo character at the expense of the Faramir character, and thus needlessly stray from the Faramir character of the book), Again, its been a bit since I read the books, so I could just be talking out of my ass:D
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post #132 of 144 Old 09-05-2003, 04:05 AM
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I don't like how Faramir was portrayed, but I absolutely love how Boromir was portrayed and thought his presense was sorely missed in TTT. I'm thrilled he will be back in the EE via flashback. Sean Bean was magnificent in the role. HE should have been nominated for Best Supporting actor, not Ian.

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post #133 of 144 Old 09-05-2003, 08:52 AM
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The casting of Sean Bean was a smart choice, as he was excellent as Boromir. If you enjoyed his performance in Lord of the Rings, I highly recommend watching him in Don't Say a Word.

It comes as no surprise that he is also cast as Odysseus in the upcoming Troy.

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post #134 of 144 Old 09-05-2003, 12:08 PM
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No offense taken hoss - but you are underselling the writing team for the movie big time. They absolutely DID take the time to analyze all the characters. As for Faramir his nobility is still there - it just received short attention like Galadriel did in the theatrical version of FOTR.

Mark my words - most of the Faramir laments will be gone after the EE of the TTT is released and when ROTK hits the theaters.

Everthing you said about the contrast between Borormir and Faramir is still there, it just didn't make the theatrical version due to time constraints. If Faramir was like Boromir as you claim the movie makes him out to be, Faramir would have already taken the ring from Frodo.

Further proof of the movie's writing team's careful analysis of the characters is demonstrated by the improvements made with all the other characters.

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post #135 of 144 Old 09-05-2003, 01:30 PM
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Lou,

I hope you're right and the EE will redress some of what I perceive to be the wrongs done to Tolkeins characters. It was the thing that bothered me most in TTT, this smearing of Faramir's nobility of character. In the books he recognised that he didn't want the ring, knew his limits and respected the choices made by the wise. In TTT he is not like that at all. As he was one of my favorite characters in the books, for me, this smarts.

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post #136 of 144 Old 09-05-2003, 01:31 PM
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Lou, just because Faramir didn't take the ring in the movie, doesn't mean that PJ, did not needlessly alter his character. If he would have taken the ring, not even PJ, could have brought the movie back into any resemblance of the books. Look, I know the movies are PJ's vision, and I have not expected an exact recreation of the books. Its just in that in this case, it seems to me, the change was unnecessary, and added nothing to the movie. I see this differently from the "Arwen" changes meant to flesh out the love story in more detail. To take a passage directly out of the book, " Yet he (Frodo) felt in his heart that Faramir, though he was much like his brother in looks, was a man less self-regarding, both sterner and wiser." And here's the most telling passage from the book, spoken by Faramir himself, " But fear no more! I would not take this thing, if it lay by the highway. Not were Minas Tirith falling in ruin and I alone could save her, so , using the weapon of the Dark Lord for her good and my glory. No, I do not wish for such triumphs, Frodo son of Drogo."

I think this says it all.

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post #137 of 144 Old 09-05-2003, 02:49 PM
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Well spoken Hoss!

Also, Frodo/Sam tell him he reminds them of Gandalf in his wisdom. Totally destroyed him in the movie, though I still love the movie!

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post #138 of 144 Old 09-05-2003, 07:13 PM
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just in that in this case, it seems to me, the change was unnecessary
That's the crux of our disagreement right there Hoss. You see Faramir as changed. I don't.

That speech you quoted has become the rallying point for all who dislike the movie Faramir.

I read that passage and always say - if what Faramir says is true, why isn't he the ringbearer? You interpret that passage to mean Faramir is a cut above the regular man because he woudn't take the ring.

I take it as him being naive because Tolkien has made it very clear that no man can resist the ring.

Imagine if Faramir had just finished that speech and was given the ring! He would end up looking pretty foolish if he wouldn't give it back.

PJs take is and will be better because the response of all man to the ring will now be consistent. Only 1 man has been able to resist the ring and that is Aragorn.

In the end nothing is changed. Faramir still lets Frodo go and is given a more dramatically interesting conflict with his father in doing so.

Faramir is the same. His motivation has been changed and been made more interesting. Especially for what is coming up in ROTK.

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post #139 of 144 Old 09-05-2003, 08:19 PM
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WHY can't Faramir recognize that the ring is evil and just leave it alone?? What if Frodo was carrying a big vial of crack?? Is there a human alive that can resist crack? I dunno, I have. Oh, wait, it's not Faramir. It's his father. His father said, son, for the good of Gondor, we need that crack and lots of it. It's great for the economy. Just do it. We'll sell the stuff on every street corner. Would Faramir think about this for love of his father, only to be talked out of it by Sam's little speech about his brother (Oh wow, crack does suck. Just say no!! Thanks, Sam!!) or would he just go hey, the old bugger Denethor is losing it for even considering such a route, but luckily I'm on the case. There's a better way. We know which way Tolkien felt. PJ is free to do what ever he wants and I still like the movies but again, this was J.R.R.'s great fear in letting someone get ahold of his work.

I'm sorry, Faramir isn't the type that would take the ring, or consider it, for any reason. He knows that to do so will bring ruin on him, Denethor, Gondor, everyone. Why don't they make him the ring-bearer? Why don't they make Gandalf the ring-bearer?? Same reason. It must fall to Frodo.

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post #140 of 144 Old 09-05-2003, 08:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Lou Sytsma
I read that passage and always say - if what Faramir says is true, why isn't he the ringbearer? You interpret that passage to mean Faramir is a cut above the regular man because he woudn't take the ring.
Actually, I see what you mean by this now, and my answer is the same. Being the ring-bearer means you TAKE THE RING.

Gandalf, Faramir and Aragorn all fall into a select club of beings that understand you DON'T take the ring.

Faramir is a cut above the regular man because he doesn't take the ring. Actually, bear in mind the stewards of Gondor are from the same lineage as Aragorn; just weaker. They are cut somewhat from the same cloth.

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post #141 of 144 Old 09-06-2003, 08:23 AM
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The ring is more psychological than physical. The ring can take your mind and something has to be said about a character that isn't effected just by its presence. I think that Faramir had something special in the books and Jackson took it away from him just to get him to take Frodo to Osgilliath. Why?

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post #142 of 144 Old 09-06-2003, 08:46 AM
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Thanks Crown. I want to point out as well, that I love the movies too. While the Bashki films were probably closer to the book in some respects, the visual grandeur of PJ's movies are second to none, and I'm glad the trilogy has been given the "real life" treatment, as opposed to animation. Futhermore there is none of that psychedelic roto-scoping(sp?) trash that plagued Bashki's movies. The technique just didn't work for me. So, even though I don't understand some of his choices (which I hope he explains on the EE), I appreciate the huge effort by PJ to give us this trilogy, finally.
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post #143 of 144 Old 09-06-2003, 09:35 AM
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proj - Jackson took it as an opportunity to show a place only briefly mentioned in the books.

The EE will show Boromir regaining Osgiliath from the Orcs only to have Faramir lose it again in ROTK. This will further deepen the rift between Faramir and Denethor.

Further events in ROTK will ie dealing with Pippin will further strengthen the need to keep Sauron's eye to the west.

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post #144 of 144 Old 09-25-2003, 11:03 AM
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Have people here been having problems with their "The Two Towers" DVDs and chapter 51?

Apparently, there's a "bad batch" of DVDs out there

http://forums.dvdfile.com/showthread.php?t=35970

Peace...
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