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post #91 of 1880 Old 01-31-2004, 05:46 AM
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This may be a good time to define the critera for inclusion on the list, or at least some of it anyway. Perhaps reasons for exclusion would be a better approach?
yes, before you go any further Art, please quantify the criteria.
i took another look at both Hulk and Starship Troopers (though mine is the SE) this morning and feel confident that both deserve to be somewhere on a 10 best list, if not close to the top.

X2-for whoever asked- i actually thought the film looked nicer on disc than in the theater.
when i saw it theatrically i was critically looking at the PQ and it was obvious to me the limitations of the super 35 format it was shot in.
i was expecting the disc to be grainy and somewhat lacking in resolution but that wasn't the case.
the only real problem i have with the disc is EE/ringing.
again this is most noticeable early in the film with shots of Logan against the white snow.

although i haven't looked at it more than once and probably not as crtitically as i did X2, its my impression that the remastered Alien would have the edge over it.
again, there is some slight ringing, but if Arts criteria allows it, then i would definitely nominate Alien as a top ten-er.
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post #92 of 1880 Old 01-31-2004, 06:50 AM
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I am glad to see North by Northwest on the list. For video quality isn't the just released Adventures of Robin Hood in the same catagory?
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post #93 of 1880 Old 01-31-2004, 06:51 AM
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AFA the criteria, I'm at a loss of how to compare animation vs film wrt PQ.
If you ignore the animation and try to pick 10 DVDs, I think you'll
go round-and-round because there will be other DVDs not listed
that are probably equal to some of those that are. Or put differently,
I don't think there are (or a consensus can be reached for) 10 DVDs
that are better than the rest. I would think it's more like 4 or 5
and throw in "North by Northwest" because it is probably the premire
BW transfer. If you add audio into the equation, then you'll be discussing
for months - is this one of the reasons you started the thread, Art? :)

Anyway, most all the DVDs listed are excellent and there there are
some not listed that equal some of those that are listed. I'm just
going to sit back and watch/read unless "Seabiscuit" and "Starship
Troopers SB" don't make the top 5. :)

larry

Ckolchak, Starship Troopers SB is a noticeable improvement over the SE.
You should pick it up.

Shumi_9 makes a good point, but I won't be watching RH. NbNW was
an excellent movie - Robin Hood doesn't appeal to me.

Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work. -- Thomas Alva Edison
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post #94 of 1880 Old 01-31-2004, 01:45 PM
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I agree about X2. Its an excellent disc but I would give it a 9 out of 10 not 10 out of 10. I feel the same way about Fargo. I have seen maybe 5 or 6 movies that look just as good the last few weeks. One movie I forgot about in sound is Driven. This is the one of the first discs that showed that dolby digital can sometimes stand up to dts. I don't know about Panic Room either. I watched The Order(another dark movie) several nights ago and I thought it might even look better than Panic Room. I agree with Starship Troopers sb, a great looking movie. This movie was pretty good before the sb came out, but the added bit rate improved it. The Indiana Jones movies are great looking movies to be so old, but they just don't hold up to the newer offerings imho.

For those about to rock we salute you!
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post #95 of 1880 Old 01-31-2004, 01:53 PM - Thread Starter
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I don't know that I can quantify some of the criteria.

Certainly excessive ringing whether you call it EE or not disqualifies and title but several on the list have some so EE doesn't disqualify.

I think the title needs to clean of any film related deficiencies like excessive grain. dirt or scratches etc.

Pixelization noted ,of almost any sort is unacceptable to me, and I think the list we have developed thus far is darn good in these aspects. The part about animation compared to reality filmed ,I think is a very valid question. I think that we have the great animated titles already and I feel because they really do meet the criteria anyway ,and have the wow of animatiion ,we just need to accept that.

I know that the ability to discern fine detail even in background as some DVD titles can do should be part of the reference characteristics. Color smearing and color bleeding should be as close to nonexistent as possible.

Most of us have seen high quality film projection. I'm still holding to the comment I made earlier and that is the title should reproduce as closely as possible the look of pristine film.

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post #96 of 1880 Old 01-31-2004, 02:01 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally posted by PooperScooper
and throw in "North by Northwest" because it is probably the premire
BW transfer. If you add audio into the equation, then you'll be discussing
for months - is this one of the reasons you started the thread, Art? :)

NbNW was
an excellent movie - Robin Hood doesn't appeal to me.
Well Pooper ,I love NBNW but it is one of the best looking Technicolor transfers we have.

Robin hood although incredible for it's age lacks definition and has a lot of grain. Please understand on this one I love this and almost feel bad about criticizing it since it still looks very good but run it next to NBNW and we see it isn't reference.

Yes ,I think the PQ reference list is being hammered out fairly well so far and yes I'm definitely not the one to rate DVDs on audio so I do want to get to the point that that the PQ additions slow before tackling the audio.

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post #97 of 1880 Old 01-31-2004, 03:26 PM
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Certainly excessive ringing whether you call it EE or not disqualifies and title but several on the list have some so EE doesn't disqualify.
I think we need a better definition of just how much EE is acceptable. I'm asking, what is the cut off point? When does it become "excessive"? The DVDs on the list now are all impressive! If we expect to cut this list down, and have it accepted as "THE REFERENCE LIST", we need to pin this down.

Keep in mind that we fully intend to remove two thirds of this list. :eek:

1) Hollow Man SB
2) Shrek
3) Lion King
4) Star Wars AotC
5) Matrix Reloaded
6) Fargo
7) The Pledge
8) Vertical Limit SB
9) Star Ship Troopers SB
10) Once Upon a Time In Mexico
11) Hulk
12) Toy Story 1
13) Toy Story 2
14) Freddy vs Jason
15) Panic Room SB
16) Finding Nemo
17) Desperado SB
18) Seabiscuit
19) Monsters Inc
20) Training Day
21) X2
22) North By Northwest
23) Dinosaur
24) Pitch Black
25) The One SB
26) Tomb Raider 2
27) Lost In Space
28) Rules of Engagement
29) Blade
30) Blade II
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post #98 of 1880 Old 01-31-2004, 03:40 PM - Thread Starter
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I don't think you will be able to do that. I don't think that any of the discs on the list right now have distracting EE but it's like a beauty contest, the best looking girl in it wins but that doesn't mean she is the best looking girl to ever live. I think even Bjoern Roy would be hard pressed to find a DVD with zero edge enhancement. Additionally so far we have about 30 titles, there are thousands. I'm not stuck on a 20 title limit I just want the final list to have DVDs that even videophiles would say are at or near the top of the format in PQ. I'm not dismissing a real quantitative measure but I couldn't do it and I'm pretty anal about this.

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post #99 of 1880 Old 01-31-2004, 03:41 PM
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Oh well. :) I haven't seen it, but I have no idea why I thought NBNW was
black and white. Must be flashing back to the TV shows....

As far as EE goes, I would say no EE or very few and far between
glimpses. The film doesn't have it. This is the reason why I really
like T3. It shows like film.

larry

Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work. -- Thomas Alva Edison
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post #100 of 1880 Old 01-31-2004, 04:00 PM - Thread Starter
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Latest:

1) Hollow Man SB
2) Shrek
3) Lion King
4) Star Wars AotC
5) Matrix Reloaded
6) Fargo
7) The Pledge
8) Vertical Limit SB
9) Star Ship Troopers SB
10) Once Upon a Time In Mexico
11) Hulk
12) Toy Story 1
13) Toy Story 2
14) Freddy vs Jason
15) Panic Room SB
16) Finding Nemo
17) Desperado SB
18) Seabiscuit
19) Monsters Inc
20) Training Day
21) X2
22) North By Northwest
23) Dinosaur
24) Pitch Black
25) The One SB
26) Tomb Raider 2
27) Lost In Space
28) Rules of Engagement
29) Blade
30) Blade II
31) Terminator III

Again, I want to reiterate that criticisms are as important as nominations.



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post #101 of 1880 Old 01-31-2004, 04:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by PooperScooper
Oh well. :) I haven't seen it, but I have no idea why I thought NBNW was
black and white. Must be flashing back to the TV shows....

I think there should be at least one or two B&W picks on the list. Heck, you can't really say you've calibrated your system until you have your grey scale set properly, and I hear some people even like to watch these things... :D B&W transfers can be all over the place, so it's good to have a reliable reference for them as well. That's why I suggested Sunset Blvd. before, or perhaps Citizen Kane.

Don't taze me, bro!!
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post #102 of 1880 Old 01-31-2004, 04:09 PM
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I agree, Art! That is quite a list and cutting it down to a certain number would be almost impossible.

Defining the criteria, then selecting DVDs which meet or exceed that criteria (special notes for those that exceed) is a much better approach, I think. If we wind up with 30 or 23 or just 14 is completely irrelevant to me. The criteria and how each DVD is selected is what is going to matter. Especially for "THE List"; the criteria needs to be more stringent than what those other people used, when they made theirs.
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post #103 of 1880 Old 01-31-2004, 04:30 PM
 
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Personally id nominate Bad Boys 2, Pearl Harbor- directors cut, Braveheart
The Rock-Criterion edition, Final Destination 2 and Gladiator.
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post #104 of 1880 Old 01-31-2004, 07:52 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally posted by FredProgGH
I think there should be at least one or two B&W picks on the list. Heck, you can't really say you've calibrated your system until you have your grey scale set properly, and I hear some people even like to watch these things... :D B&W transfers can be all over the place, so it's good to have a reliable reference for them as well. That's why I suggested Sunset Blvd. before, or perhaps Citizen Kane.
Fred,
Yes,I agree and despite the fact that many still have source issues I'd like some on the list as well . Some of the most beautiful looking DVDs are black and white.

My feeling is Sunset Blvd is one of the best but The Man Who Wasn't There and Twenty Million Miles to Earth look better perhaps since they are 1.85:1 I don't know.

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post #105 of 1880 Old 01-31-2004, 07:53 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally posted by FoxyMulder
Personally id nominate Bad Boys 2, Pearl Harbor- directors cut, Braveheart
The Rock-Criterion edition, Final Destination 2 and Gladiator.

Fox,
Are there any that are presently on the list that, for any reason , you would delete from your list ?

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post #106 of 1880 Old 01-31-2004, 09:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Art Sonneborn

My feeling is Sunset Blvd is one of the best but The Man Who Wasn't There and Twenty Million Miles to Earth look better perhaps since they are 1.85:1 I don't know.
True, there are some newer B&W films, aren't there. Man Who Wasn't There looks fantastic, I think I may watch it tonight (1st time for the digi projector!!) We'll have to see what Schindler's List looks like as well.

I don't think aspect ratio really needs to be a factor...

Don't taze me, bro!!
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post #107 of 1880 Old 01-31-2004, 09:52 PM
 
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Although Shrek has a pretty good picture its a bit soft and i believe A Bugs Life should be on that list ahead of Shrek as i recall someone mentioning the fact they had seen it on one of the HD television channels and they said it was really sharp and more detailed, also think Training Day whilst good isn't any better than a hatfull of Warner Titles like The Perfect Storm or Exit Wounds.

Dunno if anyone has this but Black Hawk Down the Korean 3 disc edition, no commentaries and all extras are on the other discs, Dolby and DTS for the main film and it looks superb and its a Superbit title.
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post #108 of 1880 Old 02-01-2004, 07:42 AM
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I would agree with FoxyMulder on Final Destination 2. It is rock solid with some tremendously shocking demonstration scenes for visual and sound.

There are 4 titles I haven't seen on the list. Of the remaining titles, the only ones I question are:

Fargo (A bit noisy and grainy, and not much in the way of sound) Great movie though!

The Pledge (I noticed some softness in some scenes)

Once Upon A Time In Mexico (Really nitpicking here but some scenes seemed slightly soft or out of focus, particularly in the distant background). Minor though on this one and I would remove it only if you really have to.

Phil
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post #109 of 1880 Old 02-01-2004, 08:37 AM - Thread Starter
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Latest:

1) Hollow Man SB
2) Shrek
3) Lion King
4) Star Wars AotC
5) Matrix Reloaded
6) Fargo
7) The Pledge
8) Vertical Limit SB
9) Star Ship Troopers SB
10) Once Upon a Time In Mexico
11) Hulk
12) Toy Story 1
13) Toy Story 2
14) Freddy vs Jason
15) Panic Room SB
16) Finding Nemo
17) Desperado SB
18) Seabiscuit
19) Monsters Inc
20) Training Day
21) X2
22) North By Northwest
23) Dinosaur
24) Pitch Black
25) The One SB
26) Tomb Raider 2
27) Lost In Space
28) Rules of Engagement
29) Blade
30) Blade II
31) Terminator III
32) A Bugs Life
33) Sunset Boulevard
34) Final Destination II
35) The Rock Criterion
36) Twenty Million Miles to Earth
37) The Man Who Wasn't There

Again, I want to reiterate that criticisms are as important as nominations.

Also, there is no order to the list. Several of these I've not seen in a long time or haven't at all so golden eyes come forth ,the list is getting long.



Art

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post #110 of 1880 Old 02-01-2004, 10:10 AM
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Art,

Although I agree with your selections for the most part, I must admit I'm a little surprised at your selections. The inclusion of so many animated and digital movies in your reference list has caught me off guard a little bit.

Not that there's anything wrong with that ( after all, I own an LCD) I just expected less of that from person that values deep black levels such as yourself.

Gus
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post #111 of 1880 Old 02-01-2004, 10:14 AM
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I forgot about Final Destination II. As good as Seabiscuit IMO and great sound design on the crash scene as well. It should be on the list.

I did watch Man Who Wasn't There again last night. Overall, a terrific silky film-like look, but there is slight ringing in one or two scenes, and the whites look a bit crushed in a couple bright scenes as well- it's hard to tell if it's from the encoding or an intentional look. I'll have to look at Sunset Blvd. again and see if it seems like a better transfer. Also, Schindler's List may wind up being the clear winner for B&W, if we're lucky...

Don't taze me, bro!!
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post #112 of 1880 Old 02-01-2004, 11:20 AM
 
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I think The Insider should be on the list it has a perfect picture and can i just say Braveheart again, tricky transfer with all the rain and smoke and dark moody scenes but its rock solid and detailed.
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post #113 of 1880 Old 02-01-2004, 12:33 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally posted by FredProgGH
I forgot about Final Destination II. As good as Seabiscuit IMO and great sound design on the crash scene as well. It should be on the list.

I did watch Man Who Wasn't There again last night. Overall, a terrific silky film-like look, but there is slight ringing in one or two scenes, and the whites look a bit crushed in a couple bright scenes as well- it's hard to tell if it's from the encoding or an intentional look. I'll have to look at Sunset Blvd. again and see if it seems like a better transfer. Also, Schindler's List may wind up being the clear winner for B&W, if we're lucky...
I've not seen Schindlers list so I don't know and the Man Who Wasn't There looks great but you are right it does have a little more ringing than most of the reference list. The problem with the B&W additions is that they are old films and many have issues associated with the source despite the fact that my heart is with them. An example is criterion Spellbound just awesome. It Happened One Night 1932 the same as is the case with Casablanca. I think although I really don't know of a better B&W example overall I'll remove it.

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post #114 of 1880 Old 02-01-2004, 12:35 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally posted by Gus
Art,

Although I agree with your selections for the most part, I must admit I'm a little surprised at your selections. The inclusion of so many animated and digital movies in your reference list has caught me off guard a little bit.

Not that there's anything wrong with that ( after all, I own an LCD) I just expected less of that from person that values deep black levels such as yourself.

Gus
Gus,
These animated titles may be made for fixed pixel displays so to speak but they still look spectacular on CRTs since they are sharp, colorful and as clean as there is. Fixed pixel or CRT they are still reference.

Art

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post #115 of 1880 Old 02-01-2004, 12:39 PM - Thread Starter
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Latest:

1) Hollow Man SB
2) Shrek
3) Lion King
4) Star Wars AotC
5) Matrix Reloaded
6) Fargo
7) The Pledge
8) Vertical Limit SB
9) Star Ship Troopers SB
10) Once Upon a Time In Mexico
11) Hulk
12) Toy Story 1
13) Toy Story 2
14) Freddy vs Jason
15) Panic Room SB
16) Finding Nemo
17) Desperado SB
18) Seabiscuit
19) Monsters Inc
20) Training Day
21) X2
22) North By Northwest
23) Dinosaur
24) Pitch Black
25) The One SB
26) Tomb Raider 2
27) Lost In Space
28) Rules of Engagement
29) Blade
30) Blade II
31) Terminator III
32) A Bugs Life
33) Sunset Boulevard
34) Final Destination II
35) The Rock Criterion
36) Twenty Million Miles to Earth
37) Braveheart
38) The Insider

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post #116 of 1880 Old 02-01-2004, 01:10 PM
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Quote:
The problem with the B&W additions is that they are old films and many have issues associated with the source despite the fact that my heart is with them. An example is criterion Spellbound just awesome. It Happened One Night 1932 the same as is the case with Casablanca. I think although I really don't know of a better B&W example overall I'll remove it.
i pulled out Sunset Boulevard last night and scanned thru it a bit.
it is a beautiful transfer, and i believe the original film was in bad shape which makes it all the more remarkable.
however- (you could see that coming couldn't you)
i also put in Criterions Rebecca and to me it looks to be on a very similar level.
i actually put in Rebecca first and had to c atch my breath at how wonderfully dimensional the film looked.
these are both great looking vintage B&Ws.
i didn't notice any 'distracting' ringing on Rebecca.

another big however.
The Bad & The Beautiful looks better than both of them.
if you don't have or haven't seen this film, you owe it to yourself to pick it up.
my recollection of Man Who Wasn't There is that the whites did look blown out on occasion, which may have been intentional, but didn't give me the "ohh ahh" that TB&TB did.

oh yeah- and the print looks about 99% pristine as well.
seriously- this may be the absolute best B&W out there.
it is certainly my reference as to how good a classic B&W can/should look.
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post #117 of 1880 Old 02-01-2004, 03:22 PM - Thread Starter
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Latest:

1) Hollow Man SB
2) Shrek
3) Lion King
4) Star Wars AotC
5) Matrix Reloaded
6) Fargo
7) The Pledge
8) Vertical Limit SB
9) Star Ship Troopers SB
10) Once Upon a Time In Mexico
11) Hulk
12) Toy Story 1
13) Toy Story 2
14) Freddy vs Jason
15) Panic Room SB
16) Finding Nemo
17) Desperado SB
18) Seabiscuit
19) Monsters Inc
20) Training Day
21) X2
22) North By Northwest
23) Dinosaur
24) Pitch Black
25) The One SB
26) Tomb Raider 2
27) Lost In Space
28) Rules of Engagement
29) Blade
30) Blade II
31) Terminator III
32) A Bugs Life
33) Sunset Boulevard
34) Final Destination II
35) The Rock Criterion
36) Twenty Million Miles to Earth
37) Braveheart
38) The Insider
39) The Bad and the Beautiful
40) Rebecca

Please critique the list !!!!!!

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post #118 of 1880 Old 02-01-2004, 04:36 PM
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4) Star Wars AotC no problem here. some of the scenes are a little softer, but its intentional
5) Matrix Reloaded top percentile
7) The Pledge saw it once on my old pj, can't really comment on it
9) Star Ship Troopers SB top percentile
11) Hulk top percentile
13) Toy Story 2 top percentile
21) X2 not quite top percentile, but just a hair under- or- a reference title with qualifications (noticeable ringing in some scenes)
26) Tomb Raider 2 looked good, definite improvment over the first as far as PQ goes, but for some reason i don't remember being especially impressed...maybe it was just the disappointment of the actual film coloring my recollection
27) Lost In Space still holds up. yes, this looks reference to me
31) Terminator III excellant with some reservations.
32) A Bugs Life solid, but its digital animation so i'm not as impressed
33) Sunset Boulevard top percentile
35) The Rock Criterion looked very impressive on my older set-up. i'm sure it still holds up
36) Twenty Million Miles to Earth from what i remember it looked good, but i don't recall it being outstanding. i seem to recall some blown out whites
37) Braveheart looked very film like to me. more grain than a lot of films, but it looked appropriate. i would consider it belonging on a list of 40 reference titles
39) The Bad and the Beautiful top percentile. the best B&W i've seen
40) Rebecca top percentile *for vintage B&W*
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post #119 of 1880 Old 02-01-2004, 05:38 PM
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Throw in another vote for Hulk. Some slight edge enhancement but the detail on the closeups is incredible. Starship Troopers is also impressive but has some grain and dirt problems at times.

How about Spy Kids 2? The HD version is a big notch above the dvd but still looks really nice and crisp.
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post #120 of 1880 Old 02-01-2004, 05:44 PM - Thread Starter
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cholchack,
At first as I went down your long list of titles you had not seen I was going to applaud you for picking titles for content not PQ until I saw that you had seen Tomb Raider II.;) :D Unfortunately you won't be a big help reducing the list but anything is a help.

Art

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"If she's amazing she won't be easy,if she's easy she won't be amazing"

 

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