THE 6TH DAY Special Editon (?) LD - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 26 Old 06-08-2001, 01:53 PM - Thread Starter
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It was reported on a.v.l. that the upcoming laserdisc of "6TH DAY" will be a special edition with extras (The DVD only had a trailer.) Details on exactly what will be included are unknown (I'll be happy with just the superior audio), but the release date is scheduled for 06/22/01.

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post #2 of 26 Old 06-08-2001, 04:02 PM
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Unless this is a Japanese release, I realy doubt it will happen. Even if it is a Japanese release, it's doubtful. The LD's are all being closed out in the Motherland at this point... What is a.v.l. ? best wishes!

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post #3 of 26 Old 06-08-2001, 11:09 PM
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I've heard the same thing. And yes it is a japanese release. Its supposed to be the same as the japan dvd with the same extras. It will come out 6/22 at $56.00. After that as far as I know there is a release in July 25th of something, according to Panorama. Don't count LD out yet theres a few releases left for the year. I wish there was something we could do to keep the releases coming. PS Whats a.v.l ??
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post #4 of 26 Old 06-09-2001, 10:55 AM
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a.v.l. looks like alt.video.laserdisc

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post #5 of 26 Old 06-09-2001, 11:32 AM
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Well the 6th day WILL come on laserdisc.
according to the-place.com
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post #6 of 26 Old 06-10-2001, 08:44 AM
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Its supposed to be the same as the japan dvd with the same extras
Not entirely the same. The DVD has both DD and DTS soundtracks.
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post #7 of 26 Old 06-10-2001, 11:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by RobertR:

Not entirely the same. The DVD has both DD and DTS soundtracks.
All DTS does on DVD is make the DVD sound as good as a DD laserdisc. And sometimes, as already proven on the JURASSIC PARK discs, not even that! I've heard the U.S. DVD and, even without any comparisons, I found the sound to be underwhelming. I'll take the LD audio quality over DVD's anyday, so I'm glad to hear of this release. My X9 is salivating already. My order is already in with the-place.com

And yes, a.v.l is alt.video.laserdisc

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post #8 of 26 Old 06-10-2001, 01:54 PM
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All DTS does on DVD is make the DVD sound as good as a DD laserdisc.
Good, then people who choose to buy the DVD will have sound just as good as the LD, with anamorphic video that the LD will lack, and they will pay less in the process. http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/smile.gif



[This message has been edited by RobertR (edited 06-10-2001).]
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post #9 of 26 Old 06-11-2001, 08:45 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by RobertR:
Good, then people who choose to buy the DVD will have sound just as good as the LD, with anamorphic video that the LD will lack, and they will pay less in the process. http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/smile.gif

Mmm. Maybe not. The DTS disc may be done at a half-bit rate, for one thing. For another, most people don't have region-free machines. And import DVD prices are usually not significantly less than the LD. So they may pay the same for less!!

Anyway, makes no diff to me. I'm getting the LD because I want a copy of the movie that won't deteriorate after a couple years.

[This message has been edited by RobertR (edited 06-10-2001).]
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post #10 of 26 Old 06-11-2001, 10:50 AM
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For another, most people don't have region-free machines.
That's irrelevant, since anyone who buys the Japanese DVD obviously DOES have such a machine (and they're quite easy to obtain).

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import DVD prices are usually not significantly less than the LD
The 6th Day DVD sells for $17 less than the LD, easily enough to pay for ANOTHER DVD.

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I'm getting the LD because I want a copy of the movie that won't deteriorate after a couple years.
Wow, such incredible bad DVD luck you have (and such incredible GOOD luck you seem to have avoiding laser rot).

Not a single one of my DVDs has deteriorated over a period of 3 years. I'd say that's a MUCH more typical experience than yours.
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post #11 of 26 Old 06-11-2001, 01:01 PM - Thread Starter
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Boys, boys! I didn't post this to create another LD/DVD argument. But I must agree that LD is certainly more durable than any DVD. DVD rot is quite common and "typical" and has been documented both here (repeatedly) and on many other sites. The most recent thread on AVS was under a POINT BREAK heading that listed even more instances. In fact, one gentleman here, in a past thread, even gave a name to DVD rot: Delamination.

The devious thing is, you don't know how many DVDs have or have not succumbed unless you watch them all the way through. Unlike LD, spot-checking won't tell the tale. LD rot is quite rare and was primarily on Sony DADC-pressed discs.

I've certainly encountered LD rot. In my case, 10 titles out of 600 LDs. As for DVDs, I've lost about 11 or 12 (that I'm aware of so far...latest casualty AMERICAN WEREWOLF) out of 43. Not a comfortable ratio. And that does not even take into account what happens to a smeared/scratched/marred DVD.
By the same token, I've seen LDs that look like someone went ice-skating on them, and they still play fine, with no more than a split-second drop-out.

One disc that I have a sinking feeling will succumb eventually is SUPERMAN. With pixelization and lock-ups on the supplementary side, I had to go through 3 different copies (on different players) to view the extras. (The problem existed in varying extents and locations.) Movie playback was fine, but I'm not confident that it will remain so for years. Keeping my fingers crossed, but sure wish there were an LD release of that one!

As a final note, others have noted that DVDs pressed by WAMO have the highest rate of deterioration (or "delamination" or "data-loss" or "rot" or whatever term pleases one best).

Mr. Clemons does make another valid point. A Half-bit rate DTS audio track is will barely (if at all) equal a full-bit rate DD laserdisc audio track.


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post #12 of 26 Old 06-11-2001, 02:19 PM
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I've certainly encountered LD rot. In my case, 10 titles out of 600 LDs.
And I've seen others post that they've encountered a much higher percentage of laser rot.

Quote:
As for DVDs, I've lost about 11 or 12 (that I'm aware of so far...latest casualty AMERICAN WEREWOLF) out of 43.
And again, I've seen posts from people with hundreds of DVDs who haven't lost a single one.

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With pixelization and lock-ups on the supplementary side, I had to go through 3 different copies (on different players) to view the extras
My copy (as well as a friend's) played perfectly on a total of 4 different players.

The problem is that this sort of "evidence" is strictly anecdotal. It's statistical evidence of nothing. It would be like claiming that, say, Chevy Impalas are more reliable based on something like "well, I personally never had problems with my Chevy, and my brother in law had trouble with his Honda". Such a statement says nothing meaningful about overall defect rates.

In addition, this kind of statement ignores the difference between absolute numbers and percentages. DVDs are made and sold in much larger numbers than LDs ever were, typically on the order of several hundred to several thousand times as many. If 1,000 people have a problem with a given DVD and only 10 with an LD, that sounds like a big difference. But if the DVD SOLD a million copies (not atypical), and the LD sold only 500 (typical of US LD sales in recent years), it's easy to see that the DVD had a much lower defect rate (0.1% vs. 2%, in this case). In addition, it makes sense that LD's tiny production runs in recent years would allow for good quality control. So there's no definitive evidence that LD is more durable that DVD, especially in normal use (I don't know anyone who uses them as frisbees).

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sure wish there were an LD release of that one!
There won't be, because LD owners preferred DVD en masse, whether you agree with them or not.
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post #13 of 26 Old 06-11-2001, 07:01 PM
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Robert, you needn't taunt whomever stille likes LD's. If people like or prefer them, what's it to you? I mostly buy DVD's now, but as long as they sell new LD's, which won't be much longer even in Japan, I'd buy a few. LD's do have some advantages. The players are far more reliable for one. LD's and DVD are stille both NTSC and suffer from the same picture problems, thusly. The best DVD's do look better, but there are LD's that look better. Particularly, if one owns a HLD-X9 or LD-S9 to play the LD's on.

I stille do a great deal of my movie viewing on LD, and will continue to do so for quite some time to come. I bought a couple of Japanese LD's recently. And, I managed to get a couple of titles that aren't on DVD anyway. Don't chide people for their preferences Robert. This disc-cusion is not about your disc preferences! Thanks...

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post #14 of 26 Old 06-11-2001, 08:02 PM
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Hi Rachael. It's not so much that I'm chiding anyone for his preference. I'm just presenting a certain side of this debate. I know you can enjoy both formats, which is good! Enjoy.
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post #15 of 26 Old 06-11-2001, 08:58 PM
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Are those thingies, not those thingies, you know thingies, the ones that spin? Oh, I thought it was the other thingie, nevermind.....Best wishes!

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In real life I am Dot Mongur champion of the International Pacman Federation. I don't play the game, I operate it.....no dot is safe from me....

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post #16 of 26 Old 06-12-2001, 08:27 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by RobertR:

There won't be, because LD owners preferred DVD en masse, whether you agree with them or not.
A more accurate comment would be that retail accessibility to LD product was taken from consumers en masse. PRIOR to DVD's appearance in the marketplace. There's a difference between "preference" and "no choice."

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post #17 of 26 Old 06-12-2001, 12:01 PM
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A more accurate comment would be that retail accessibility to LD product was taken from consumers en masse
Which doesn't change the fact that MOST LD owners LIKED the changeover, even though you and Rusnak and Stiles aren't happy about it.

[This message has been edited by RobertR (edited 06-12-2001).]
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post #18 of 26 Old 06-12-2001, 05:01 PM
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Which doesn't change the fact that MOST LD owners LIKED the changeover, even though you and Rusnak and Stiles aren't happy about it.
Do you happen to know "MOST" LD owners? More then likely not the case.

Do you have any interest in the LD format or are you just interested in trolling discussions about the LD format? I get the distinct impression that the latter would be the case from the tone of your replies.
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post #19 of 26 Old 06-12-2001, 05:31 PM
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Do you happen to know "MOST" LD owners? More then likely not the case.
Michael:

This is as irrelevant a question as asking if I know moviegoers personally when asked if Titanic was a popular movie.

In like manner, I don't need to know people personally to see what the status of the video marketplace is. People voted with their dollars quite convincingly, just as they did with the switch from LP to CD.

It's unfortunate that you decided to respond with a label instead of an argument, which tells me you don't have one.

But I am glad that MOST people can enjoy their LDs AND their DVDs.
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post #20 of 26 Old 06-12-2001, 09:10 PM
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raging war here !! http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

not a single dvd rot so far here (300 titles, started in 1998 ). some lds rot ( mainly Universal or Columbia, like DANTES PEAK ).
except for some bad pressings like CONTACT, it's first a question of temperature, humidity, variations of temperature.

as for 6TH DAY, I'd take the DTS dvd from Japan

AC3 lds where generally encoded at a higher level than dvds ( I learned my lesson http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/biggrin.gif ). take TOY STORY or TITAN AE as ref dvds for audio.

I admit I had less issues however with lds in the past, audio speaking ( just play the ld and enjoy ). now, spl level varies a lot. thank you Columbia !

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post #21 of 26 Old 06-13-2001, 10:27 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by RobertR:

Michael:

This is as irrelevant a question as asking if I know moviegoers personally when asked if Titanic was a popular movie.

In like manner, I don't need to know people personally to see what the status of the video marketplace is. People voted with their dollars quite convincingly, just as they did with the switch from LP to CD.

People did not "vote with their dollars." This is not a multiplex, where choice was an option. LD was removed from access and not even customer complaints (and there were some) was allowed to change that. It was DVD or nothing at many street outlets.

I've even read CELEBRITIES bemoan (in print) the lack of LDs.

And anyone I've ever met who has seen LD at it's best (and DVD) seems to prefer the LD presentation. Of course, such people don't peruse boards like this one, nor are they bombarded with the hyperbole from "experts" telling them that they are supposed to believe otherwise.

Yes, many people paid to see TITANIC. But not everyone liked it. I guess this also means that THE WATERBOY must be a better movie than RAGING BULL? (Which barely made a dime theatrically.)

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post #22 of 26 Old 06-13-2001, 12:31 PM
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For those that don't know or It may not matter,
RobertR has been or maybe still be a laserdisc owner. He has stated that he has owned them in the past.
Regardless hes mostly right and sure brings a good discussion to a boil http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/smile.gif

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AC3 lds where generally encoded at a higher level than dvds
Higher level? Even though we can't prove this its from what I can hear to be the issue. Don't confuse higher level with higher bitrate though. DVDS are always encoded at a higher bitrate when we are discussing DD 5.1


Bye for now I have lots of LD and DVD's to go watch http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/smile.gif
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post #23 of 26 Old 06-13-2001, 12:32 PM
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LD was removed from access and not even customer complaints (and there were some) was allowed to change that
The fact that here were "some" complaints about the changeover (there are ALWAYS going to be SOME people who disagree about changes. I've seen a web site from a guy who claims 78s are better than LPs) does nothing to change the fact that they were quite small compared to the number of LD buyers that were HAPPY with the change. Retailers changed because they wanted to sell what would make them the most money. You can HARDLY deny that DVD is much more profitable than LD ever was (a recent article in Variety talks about how Hollywood studios are ecstatic over how much money DVD is making for them)

I recall seeing a survey done by the LD Newsletter (subscribed to by dedicated LD buyers) that asked its readers which format they would rather have a movie in. They asked what their LD BUYERS WANTED. DVD won HANDILY. That you and some others disagree with that majority opinion does NOTHING to change that. And people certainly HAVE voted with their dollars. As I pointed out, studios had to resort to requiring minimum LD preorders (on the order of only 500 or so) to make sure they weren't stuck with excess inventory (the number of LD fire sales is evidence of how much excess inventory there was). They had trouble filling even that small number. It was LD buyers who got DVD started (the fastest start EVER for a format). They could have said no to it, they COULD have told retailers "we don't care that you're trying to sell us DVD, we don't want it", which is EXACTLY what they said to DIVX. But they didn't. They happily bought it, even if a small "some" didn't.

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I've even read CELEBRITIES bemoan (in print) the lack of LDs.
Who? Bill Clinton? George Bush? Adam Sandler? Do you buy a product because a celebrity endorses it? I don't.

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Yes, many people paid to see TITANIC. But not everyone liked it.
You missed the point of my analogy. Michael said that I couldn't say that LD buyers liked DVD because I don't know them all personally. I pointed out that I don't need to because I can see what happened in the marketplace, just as I don't need to know all moviegoers to see that Titanic was popular. The fact that not everyone liked it does NOTHING to change that fact.

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anyone I've ever met who has seen LD at it's best (and DVD) seems to prefer the LD presentation
Again, this is like claiming that pork spareribs don't taste good because everyone I've PERSONALLY encountered is Jewish or a vegetarian. It's a sample size that's inconsequential. It would be quite easy to come up with any number of contrary opinions to yours from, for example, Faroudja, Runco (both of which obviously wanted to show their products at their best, and weren't DVD companies), Joe Kane, etc., or from individual posters who've compared the two. The bottom line is that most people, including most LD buyers, disagree with you, whether you want to accept that reality or not.

[This message has been edited by RobertR (edited 06-13-2001).]
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post #24 of 26 Old 06-13-2001, 12:35 PM
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Thanks for the kind words, Shane. http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/smile.gif You've always been a good poster too. BTW, I got to see and hear an HLD-X9 in action over the weekend thanks to someone's gracious hospitality. http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/smile.gif I enjoyed the experience! I also enjoyed watching some of his DVDs. I'd say that made for a well rounded afternoon. http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/smile.gif
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post #25 of 26 Old 06-14-2001, 10:12 AM
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However LD still turns a small profit.
Does that profit include the "fire sale" discs selling for 5 to 10 dollars? Why aren't they sold for more? Do you really think "banners and announcements" would up the selling price?

You seem to be amazed and disturbed that retailers would prefer selling something that gives them 10, 100, 1000 times as much revenue (revenue provided PRIMARILY by LD buyers in the early days). But, of course, they're simply doing what businesses are supposed to do. It's hardly the vaguely sinister motivation you seem to want to imply.


Quote:
I recall seeing a survey done by the LD Newsletter (subscribed to by dedicated LD buyers)that asked its readers which format they would rather have a movie in. They asked what their LD BUYERS WANTED. DVD won HANDILY.

Yes...eventually, once LD was barely available.
You're implying that the survey question asked "which format do you prefer based on availability". But the question actually asked was, "which format do you prefer", which just proves that availability followed people's preferences. Sure, there was initial skepticism towards DVD (I know I was skeptical. I ALWAYS am of new formats, INCLUDING DVD Audio and SACD). The owner of the Home Theater Forum has even said his initial reaction was "**** DVD", because he was a longtime LD collector. Now he loves the format. This is typical. The fact remains that LD people gave DVD its fast start. You can't deny that.


Quote:
Compare that with the banners, graphics, and plethora of announcements regarding any DVD release.
Funny how people had no trouble ignoring all the DIVX commercials and promotions. Which just proves it's CONSUMERS who decide what succeeds and fails, not "banners and graphics".


Quote:
I know of of two very major directors who actually who actually detest it.
And I know of major directors who love it and say it shows their films better than any previous format.

But I do agree with you to this extent: People didn't buy DVD based on what Sam Runco or Joe Kane or Martin Scorcese or Ridley Scott or Sony or "banners" said. They bought it based on what they saw and heard FOR THEMSELVES, whether you want to accept the reality of the situation or not.
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post #26 of 26 Old 06-14-2001, 09:05 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally posted by RobertR:
You can HARDLY deny that DVD is much more
profitable than LD ever was (a recent article in Variety talks about how Hollywood
studios are ecstatic over how much money DVD is making for them)
No one is saying that DVDs aren't more profitable. However LD still turns a small profit. Import LDs routinely sell-out their pressing runs.

[b] I recall seeing a survey done by the LD Newsletter (subscribed to by dedicated LD buyers) that asked its readers which format they would rather have a movie in.
They asked what their LD BUYERS WANTED. DVD won HANDILY[b]

Yes...eventually, once LD was barely available. But earlier surveys by the same publication had LD winning handily.

[b] And people certainly HAVE voted with their dollars. As I pointed out, studios had to resort to requiring minimum LD preorders (on the order of only 500 or so) BTW, the last Image LDs sold double that on two titles with a low want-to-buy potential, even with zero promotion. And they still would not produce additional LDs of higher-profile titles which would potentially have sold thousands more. (Such as TPM). [b]

You seem to forget that retail stores had eliminated LDs and were not accepting orders from consumers. That just left a few Internet stores, many of which barely mentioned a title announcement. Even 500 orders would be difficult to achieve, given such "promotion." Compare that with the banners, graphics, and plethora of announcements regarding any DVD release.

[b]George Bush? Adam Sandler? Do you buy a product because a
celebrity endorses it? I don't.]

Actually, I do know that many filmmakers do not like DVD. (I know of of two very mahjor directors who actually detest it.) You'll never hear that publicly, although they contreibute as little as possible when it comes to supplementals (aside from what is ported over from previous LDs). I did read that Benicio Del Toro preferred LDs, and wishes he could still get them. But I certainly would not buy any product just because a celebrity endorses it. By the same token, I wouldn't buy anything just because Joe Kane or Runco endorsed it either. Particularly since NEITHER of these "expert opinions" ever displayed LD at its best. Not saying they're wrong in certain respects. But they are certainly not gospel either.
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