EE: no myth, just studios' trick to try improve definition - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 19 Old 10-03-2001, 06:31 AM - Thread Starter
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as I read on other site(s) http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/biggrin.gif that EE could just be a myth or a "vue de l'esprit" by some techy home theater guys (RLMAO!!), it's good to see more and more dvd websites tell the truth: here's another one, in French (Canada).
EE is intended and should be banned!! Maybe it will disappear once the super HDDVD (960p? more? dreaming) will hit the market in 5 years..( or before http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/biggrin.gif )
http://www.dvdenfrancais.com/titres/swepisode1.asp (excellent site):
"On considère généralement qu'une pellicule offre de 4000 Ã* 6000 lignes de résolution, tandis qu'en DVD on ne compte que 525 lignes de résolution. Cette perte de résolution tend Ã* faire paraître l'image moin nette et précise. Une des techniques pour compenser cette perte est d'appliquer un filtre numérique qui a la particularité de mieux découper et définir, les contours. Ce filtre peut être appliqué Ã* différentes intensités, subtilement ou avec plus de force comme c'est le cas pour cette édition. Les contours se démarquent au point qu'Ã* l'occasion des halos sont visibles. Ce défaut fait perdre énormément de naturalité Ã* l'image et devient même agaçant."
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post #2 of 19 Old 10-03-2001, 07:40 AM
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I also wish to draw their attention to get the color right. Especially the skin tones.
I have seen dvds after dvds that looked so whacked up as compared to films in a cinema.

Spy Kids, Monkey Bones, 13 days, are some examples, and many more.

CH Yeow

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post #3 of 19 Old 10-03-2001, 11:10 PM
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I can easily live with some color timing errors affecting video images from time to time...but cannot, and will not tolerate EE as this "enhancement" truly wrecks havoc with our signal sources by rendering them too "video" looking and not film-like, which is the ultimate goal in the pursuit of recreating the cinema experience at home.

Movie studios, pay heed: no more use of "EE" on DVDs.
It simply has to go!!...

-THTS
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post #4 of 19 Old 10-04-2001, 08:38 AM
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EE _may_ have been useful back in the days when VHS was king, but with component video and DVD resolution it just looks wrong.

I can't remember the title, but Jean-Luc Bresson's freediving movie had so much EE on it that it even looked awful in VHS.

There is no doubt that EE exists. I am a telecine colorist and I have the controls for it right in front of me as I type this between sessions. We can set the width of the effect separately for horizontal and vertical. The same filter can enhance the apparent sharpness or reduce it. It is sometimes useful to reduce sharpness to avoid moire in certain conditions, and sometimes it helps to increase sharpness for slightly soft or out of focus material, but I would never willingly add EE to an entire film transfer master unless specifically instructed by a client.


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post #5 of 19 Old 10-04-2001, 04:15 PM
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Chroma601,

Great to hear from an "insider!"

If you won't mind spending a bit of your free time, please check a few scenes from My Fair Lady and Lawrence Of Arabia, two DVD titles that in my estimation contain possibly the worst visible amounts of ghosting caused by what appears to be unrestricted application of "EE."

Blown to screen sizes that may span widths of 6 feet and beyond (I use a 12 foot wide scope ratioed screen), the image produced by these films become nearly unwatchable.
The problem is worse with the MFL transfer (an early WB DVD release), something that is absolutely incomprehensible as the restoration of the film by Robert Harris and Jim Katz breathed new life into this classic film -it is thrillingly stunning looking!- and should have been given first rate treatment. It is obvious to me that BW used the laserdisc master, which is riddled with EE, for the DVD transfer rather than ordering a new HD anomorphic master.

Anyway, I for one will continue the crusade against the band-aid use of EE in DVD transferring by decrying its seemingly unbridled application at every opportunity.

I hope you can join us in our quest in attaining the best that it can be as far as signal sources for our beloved Home Theaters is concerned. Cheers!...

-THTS

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post #6 of 19 Old 10-04-2001, 10:17 PM
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Manrique!!

First of all, WHAT IN THE WORLD ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?? This "EE" stuff is killing me, positively killing me!!

I regularly watch my DVDs, and the DVDs I rent and borrow from friends, on a 15 year-old, 15 inch Sony TV, in mono no less! Never in my life have I considered worrying about Edge Enhancement.

Now, things like STORY, ACTING QUALITY, DIRECTING - these are the things I look for in a movie. A good script...oh GOD, what I would give for a good script and good actors!! Especially after this anemic year of movies!!

Gotta face it: a crap movie with flawless "EE" is still a CRAP DVD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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post #7 of 19 Old 10-04-2001, 11:09 PM
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More misinformation on other sites: EE and the resulting ringing is a byproduct of MPEG compression! Aaargh!
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post #8 of 19 Old 10-05-2001, 12:29 AM - Thread Starter
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ah! it must come from that long thread on EE on the HTF.

denial! EE is most of the time HUMAN MADE, intentional.

really, dvdenfrançais nailed it quite right.
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post #9 of 19 Old 10-05-2001, 01:03 AM
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DaveAl,

Ouch! http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/eek.gif Don't yell 'cus I can hear you just fine. http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/cool.gif

Look my friend, let those of us with screens of greater dimensions than 15" TV sets (although I even notice various amounts of EE on my 15" Sony PC monitor on the occasions I may check for its presence on DVDs if you really want to know) and who care about obtaining the highest quality imaging possible from our signal sources worry about it.
If you're happy viewing movies on the set up you describe, hey, more power to 'ya! Remain as you are.
Just don't tell me I shouldn't complain and scream bloody murder because I loathe EE's presence on DVDs and decry about it publicly.

Btw, do you consider Lawrence Of Arabia and My Fair Lady to be crappy movies? Umm...

-THTS
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post #10 of 19 Old 10-05-2001, 05:41 AM
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DaveAL

I just don't understand you and all those others who say they are film lover (which I don't doubt) but watch their movies happily on low grade equipment (like a 15 year old 15" TV and in mono no less http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/wink.gif ) and don't give a damn how to improve the audio and video quality of their so beloved movies?

Why don't you want your movies to look and sound the best possible if you love'em so much?


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Look my friend, let those of us with screens of
greater dimensions than 15" TV sets and who care about obtaining the highest quality imaging possible from our signal sources worry about it.
Right!

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post #11 of 19 Old 10-05-2001, 07:21 AM - Thread Starter
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DaveAL

I'm rolling on the floor........ 15" and mono ???????

ah ah ah ah

please, upgrade and see how bad some dvds are made. you don't work for FOX or Columbia do you ?? http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

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post #12 of 19 Old 10-05-2001, 02:34 PM
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DaveAL:

You wouldn't, by any chance, be watching these movies on a 15" monitor in a telecine suite somewhere, would you?

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post #13 of 19 Old 10-05-2001, 05:07 PM
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Hey all,

I just don't get why so many people think that a herculean TV and sound system has anything to do with making a movie an enjoyable experience. I mean, really, would state-of-the-art technology make "Art of War" or "Down Periscope" any better? Heck, if anything, it would make these films even MORE painful to watch.

What we should be discussing is the utter lack of quality writing in film these days. Didn't Hollywood recently - or perhaps they still are - suffer through a writer's strike? Well, hell...that's great! Fire the bums and get some fresh blood out there! Maybe these hack writers, who can seemingly do nothing but rehash old TV series and SNL skits for the big screen, will be replaced by a few dozen scribes who can create something fresh. I can only hope. http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/smile.gif

Give me "Citizen Caine" and "Chinatown" on my 13-inch Sony any day!

One more thing: The next time I hear about someone watching BATTLEFIELD EARTH on a $5000 system...I'm gonna puke!!!!!

Dave
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post #14 of 19 Old 10-05-2001, 06:14 PM - Thread Starter
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Dave

watching CLEOPATRA on a 120" screen in 960p with a good sound system is very DIFFERENT ( aka, so greater!! ) than in mono on 13" monitor. Remember that most movies have been made to be projected in theaters: many movies SHINE on large screen and constricting them on tvs just desctruct part of themselves. On many occasions, if quality can be preserved (definition, contrast, resolution etc), SIZE DOES MATTER and THE BIGGER, the BETTER.

But I agree over the years, script quality ( and also acting quality ) is in a clear downtrend. The public has to do with it too (education?) so studios go with the flow, the $$ flow... but blockbuster of low quality are needed anyway to help finance non-blockuster or money loser movies (quality movies but limited to an educated or appreciative public: without the money from big movies, those films would probably be not shot). The problem is the ratio: more and more low quality stuff vs high quality stuff.
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post #15 of 19 Old 10-05-2001, 07:51 PM
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DaveAL,
I would rather watch Battlefield Earth on my system than Citizen Kane on a TV. I guess you have to puke now. As a matter of fact I could never degrade any serous art like Citizen Kane by watching on a 15" TV. You may watch movies but I and most others experience them. I order to maximize a experience you should have as much sensory stimulation as possible. Remember a spoon full of ice milk is not as satisfying as a pint of Ben & Jerry's. EE is a very real, serious and degrading problem on DVDs.

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[This message has been edited by William (edited 10-05-2001).]

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post #16 of 19 Old 10-05-2001, 08:43 PM
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Hey guys-

not to burst anyone's bubble- but its actually spelled "citizen kane" not "citizen caine"

I think that instead of discriminating one another- we are here in this forum to discuss two things-film and technology-things we love and appreciate very much.

So in the words of the great Rodney king- "cant we all just get along?"

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post #17 of 19 Old 10-05-2001, 11:36 PM
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David600,

Where do you get those funny cartoon-like "icons"? The one in your last post got me busting a gut!... http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

-THTS
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post #18 of 19 Old 10-06-2001, 04:55 AM - Thread Starter
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post #19 of 19 Old 10-06-2001, 08:08 PM
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