Previewed SuperBit, SW: EP1, Final Fantasy DVD's at Widescreen Review - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
 
Thread Tools
post #1 of 28 Old 09-30-2001, 11:00 PM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
Rice Rocket's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Central CA
Posts: 960
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 22
Yesterday, some forum members were invited guests at the new Widescreen Review Facility. I'll detail other aspects of the visit elsewhere, and concentrate on some of the not-yet-released, but widely anticipated DVD's that we got to view firsthand.

SuperBit Fifth Element vs. old version
We viewed the "reanimation" scene (Chp 8, Nucleolab) in SuperBit, and then synchronized it with the old version, started from the beginning of the chapter and switched on the fly. FYI, I was middle center, about one screen width from an 84" wide 16:9 screen.

There is a difference. The SuperBit version has slightly better detail (and I mean slight), but more noticably, a better and smoother color rendition. Beyond my sitting position, most comments were about the improved color.

As reported by Widescreen Review in their posted review, the difference is subtle--I think they described it spot-on. I doubt the average consumer will be able to differentiate between them based on video quality.

I submit that they should have allocated another 754 KBps (for full-rate) to the DTS audio instead, and picture quality would not have been sacrificed. Don't get me wrong, the DTS track is a nice addition, albeit at half-rate. We didn't compare the DD versus DTS soundtracks, but based on what I saw, I dare say that the measely 754 KBps would have made more of a difference in the audio quality than it did the video. http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/frown.gif

I'll probably buy them for the DTS audio more than anything else.

P.S. We watched the SuperBit Diva scene at the end for the heck of it. Also got to see the hijacking part of the SuperBit AFO--the audio was breathtaking.

Star Wars: Episode One - The Phantom Menace
There was instant applause when Gary said this would be the next demo. Of course, we viewed the pod race. I won't comment on the audio as I was not in the sweet spot, but again, I was middle center, one screen width away.

I was hugely disappointed to see bad EE! The long shots of the pods in the starting grid had a startling amount of EE and very visible halo's around objects. No one is going to miss this!

This is far from a reference video transfer--if it was a little, I'd had accepted it. As is, I predict a wave of complaints from videophiles. True to form, the videophiles who are SW fans will dutifully purchase this DVD, then await/demand/petition a yet to be announced "SuperBit-type" version down the road (with DTS this time?). I am hugely disappointed, but will still buy the DVD as I don't want to wait a few years for Lucasfilm to get it together. http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/frown.gif

If this DVD doesn't convince you, nothing will: THX approval of DVD's is of no significance whatsoever. It is no indication of a superior video transfer for sure.

Final Fantasy - The Spirits Within (potential spoiler!)
Minor EE on this one, only visible in certain scenes. Transfer looks good otherwise based on the 10-13 minute sequence. We viewed the beginning, right up till Aki is rescued. It seemed to me that they elevated the black levels so that you can see what is happening in the dark surroundings (this sequence happens at night time), so there was seemingly very little, if any absolutely black (7.5% IRE or below) areas in the picture.

P.S. I saw this movie twice prior; once in a THX theater, and another in a digital projector theater.

Monty Python and the Holy Grail
Wow--the best transfer yet of this classic! Because the movie is old and made very cheaply, you won't be seeing pristine picture quality compared to even the worse of today's A-titles. But as far as it being the best it can look, there is no doubt that they did a fantastic job on this new version. I say, "Ni!"
Rice Rocket is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 28 Old 10-01-2001, 07:41 AM
AVS Club Gold
 
Alan Gouger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 1999
Location: Florida
Posts: 18,726
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 16
Thanks for the follow up.

I only ordered The Fith Eliment just so see for myself if I could see a difference.

Sounds like everyone had fun at the get together!!

------------------
Alan Gouger
Thanks for supporting AV Science.
www.avscience.com
Alan Gouger is offline  
post #3 of 28 Old 10-01-2001, 12:06 PM
Advanced Member
 
boblinds's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Posts: 990
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 32
I was there, too, seated somewhere behind Rice, I believe. Everything he says is true.

My sole addition would be that in the Superbit "The Fifth Element" the most difference I saw was in the skin textures during the resurrection scene. Notably, you could see the pink flush of broken blood vessels in Brion James' cheeks and other variations in flesh tones. Outlines also seemed a bit sharper than in the standard DVD version.

HOWEVER, remember that we were watching on a projector/scaler combination that is pushing the six figure price envelope. I believe that most of us in the room agreed that only folks with highly analytical, first tier equipment would be likely to notice the difference. It wasn't a "night and day" difference by any means.

Also, I remain skeptical as to what this REALLY tells us about MPEG compression data rates. As Gary Reber clarified, the Superbit version comes from the same telecine transfer as the original. And while the first compression analysis is computerized, the second compression phase takes place under human supervision. So, is the difference here REALLY the bit rate? Or is it the result of more painstaking execution of MPEG compression performed by a team given the task of creating a "videophile" DVD?

[This message has been edited by boblinds (edited 10-01-2001).]
boblinds is offline  
post #4 of 28 Old 10-01-2001, 12:32 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Gertjan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: All over
Posts: 1,533
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Thanks for the review http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/smile.gif I've been curious about the actual improvement of the SuperBit DVDs over the "old" DVDs, and reviews like yours help to get a better picture (no pun intended).

And i don't wanna turn this into an Ep1 DVD thread, but...

LucasFilm has been saying that the reason we didn't have Star Wars DVDs up to this point was because George Lucas wanted to be involved in the whole process a lot to make sure the maximum quality was achieved etc. After reading your review i wonder though...

I'm surprised that the DVD is not top quality. Lucas used to be so concerned about quality that he even instituted the whole THX concept to help make video and audio transfers as good as possible so that people at home would experience the highest quality audio and video possible. I would think that if he still had the same passion about video and audio quality, he would've done a better job on this DVD. Maybe he's only in it for the money after all ...? http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/smile.gif

Of course all this is only based on your review. I'll have to wait to see it with my own eyes when (not if) i buy the Star Wars Ep1 DVD myself http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/smile.gif

Gertjan

------------------
Hooked on toys

"He who asks feels dumb for a few minutes, but he who does not ask remains dumb forever."

Gertjan is offline  
post #5 of 28 Old 10-01-2001, 12:45 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Don O'Brien's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Babylon, NY USA
Posts: 2,128
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Thanks for the comments, but one sticks out. It is a shame if they designed a no compromise home theater, and have a narrow sweet spot.

------------------
Don O

[This message has been edited by Don O'Brien (edited 10-01-2001).]

Cheers,
Don O
Don O'Brien is offline  
post #6 of 28 Old 10-01-2001, 12:56 PM
AVS Special Member
 
David600's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: the REAL cinema experience at home: THAT's the trick.
Posts: 4,397
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
thanks for these reviews.

on EPISODE ONE: several reviews confirm the image is not reference at all, plagued with EE and the dolby 5.1 managed to NOT match the fabulous Japanese laserdisc. I await the dvd to compare it to my ld. http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/biggrin.gif
(note : as for dts, it will NEVER appear..... http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/biggrin.gif )

on FINAL FANTASY: how was the sound ? Columbia has developed a nasty havit to screw up the dialnorm ( CHARLIES ANGELS, 6TH DAY etc) so I wonder: was it thunderous, bassy, no level problem ?

on STAR WARS dvds: it's a question of revenues!!!!! http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/biggrin.gif
When we'll have 40 millions players in the US, maybe http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/biggrin.gif
I would have much prefer to see Lucas release a good edition of the trilogy a year or two ago and then wait for a super duper edition later on. now, it seems we'll get the dvds on the dawn of the HD DVD!!! http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/biggrin.gif ( note: the 1997 5.1 edition was released on laserdisc as the laserdisc market was DEAD !)


[This message has been edited by David600 (edited 10-01-2001).]
David600 is offline  
post #7 of 28 Old 10-01-2001, 03:02 PM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
Rice Rocket's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Central CA
Posts: 960
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 22
Quote:
Lucas used to be so concerned about quality that he even instituted the whole THX concept to help make video and audio transfers as good as possible so that people at home would experience the highest quality audio and video possible.
Actually, the THX program was a brainchild of Tom Homlinson <sp?>, not George Lucas. Tom worked for Lucasfilm back then.

Quote:
I would think that if he still had the same passion about video and audio quality, he would've done a better job on this DVD. Maybe he's only in it for the money after all ...?
Of course he is--Lucasfilm and all it's other properties are a for-profit business. http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/smile.gif

THX has always stood for a set of minimum standards in Lucasfilm's view, nothing more. Those minimum standards happened to be very high for Laserdisc certifications, but is obviously too low as to be meaningless with their DVD certification. Note that even in the Laserdisc days, there were equivalent/superior LD transfers that were NOT THX-certified.

Quote:
Thanks for the comments, but one sticks out. It is a shame if they designed a no compromise home theater, and have a narrow sweet spot.
Well, I can understand why they did it. It was actually by design. When you were in the sweet spot (basically the one seat), the imaging was phenomenal--beyond any other setup I've heard. It sounded like you had a fantastic pair of headphones on! Anyplace other than that spot was severly compromised. Look here for the layout: http://www.dunlavyaudio.com/sys-musi...widesreen.html

Couple of quick comments about the sound of the setup. Please note that my observation is limited to movie watching with the setup, not audio. I felt the front speakers were too far apart for the screen size (for movies). In properly mixed soundtracks where the sound is placed to the extremes of the front channels, the imaging becomes incongruous with what you see on the screen. However, it worked perfectly for stereo or multi-channel audio.

Also, they had a speaker right above the prime seat that was connected to the middle rear channel. This worked great for stuff that was meant for the rear center surround for flyovers. But because of this arrangement, the rear soundstage had a "arc". IOW, when the sound is hard rear left/right surround, it was at ear level. As it moved more towards rear center surround, the image moved higher behind you. I'm not sure I liked this more than mounting rear speakers above ear level.

I would call the setup a no-nonsense, "no-compromise" setup for monitoring or evaluating a mix, for one person. It definitely isn't a no-compromise home theater in my book; maybe for one person. Even then, I believed the setup reflects Gary Reber's personal philosophy more than anything else. I doubt the goal of Widescreen Review was no to create a "home theater" per se, but more a no-compromise review system for one.

As an example, THX has a valid point about emulating the cinemaplex because that's what the sound engineers target their mix for. Keep in mind that most sound engineers are not mixing for a optimized "home theater," but more for the commercial theater. Gary Reber has never subscribed to the THX philosophy for his own valid reasons.

I don't know of any movie sound designer doing a completely different mix to cater to the "home theater." There have been many re-mixes from stereo to 5.1, which is different than mixing specifically to what is the expected or standard home theater setup; there are just too many variables. And one may choose to "compromise" on different variables based on informed decisions. For me, the only no compromise setup would be to actually sit next to the audio engineer doing the movie mix... http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/tongue.gif

Few things of note:
1. WR chose not to use any bass management because all their speakers are full-range. However, their center channel was not quite up to the task as the others, and it clipped quite a bit on the louder soundtracks like Titan A.E.

2. There was a slight but noticable horizontal red misconvergence in the setup. http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/frown.gif I tried really hard to ignore it...

3. The Faroudja scaler (can't remember whether it was the 3000 or the 5000) was not PERFECT at de-interlacing 30 fps. I saw some "zippering" on the drum sticks used by Buddy Lee during the demo.

4. I've gotten so used to 72Hz/3:3 pulldown on the Rock+ for 24 fps stuff, that I could easily detect the judder on the setup running at 60Hz/3:2 during camera pans.

Please everyone, remember I'm being hyper-critical here. I would say that 99% of the population would never see nor hear what I've described. Overall, we had a wonderful time!

For me, the most amazing part of the whole experience was the room and it's construction...

[This message has been edited by Rice Rocket (edited 10-01-2001).]
Rice Rocket is offline  
post #8 of 28 Old 10-01-2001, 03:11 PM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
Rice Rocket's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Central CA
Posts: 960
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 22
Quote:
on FINAL FANTASY: how was the sound?
I wasn't in the sweet spot for this demo, but it sounded fairly dynamic. I agree though, I hope they didn't screw up the dialnorm on this title. It was the potential to be a reference DVD, with the minor EE caveat.
Rice Rocket is offline  
post #9 of 28 Old 10-01-2001, 03:14 PM
AVS Special Member
 
David600's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: the REAL cinema experience at home: THAT's the trick.
Posts: 4,397
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
thanks Rick
David600 is offline  
post #10 of 28 Old 10-01-2001, 07:20 PM
Member
 
Perry Sun's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Temecula, CA, USA
Posts: 18
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Hi Rice Rocket,

Thanks again for coming and I appreciate your comments and feedback.

The projector was the Runco DTV-1101, mated to the Runco 4404 Ultra processor.

Also, regarding the Dunlavy HR-CC center channel, we're getting Dunlavy's 15-inch passive sub to extend the low-end of this channel.

Regarding the nature of our home theatre being designed for one seating position, I don't think that is as peculiar as some seem to believe. Our system designed for both movies and music. The experience of audio through a speaker system basically boils down to tonal resolution, dynamic range and imaging. For imaging (which will be of particular importance with multichannel music), you can really only get the optimal experience from a limited, often single seating area. We all know that to get phantom imaging between a pair of speakers, you need to be at the same distance from each of them. To theoretically get optimal imaging from a multichannel speaker system, you need to be seated in the "sweet spot" position. In my opinion, if you care just as much or more about music than movies, you've got to start thinking about designing your sound system with imaging in mind, rather than just replicating a movie theatre environment.

THX aims to serve a greater listening area than a single listening position, but in the process compromises imaging, particularly with the dipole surrounds. The Ultra 2 specification, which is supposedly aimed toward both music and movies, retains the use of dipoles in the left-right side surrounds, but also aims to achieve some sense of directionality by distributing some of the L/R surrounds to two back surrounds. However, they believe that even with two back surrounds spaced apart, the optimal listening area is narrow. So they recommend the use of two monopole back surrounds (tonally matched to the fronts), placed side-by-side, against each other. Then the THX Ultra2 Controller applies inter-channel cancellation to the back surround channels, with the objective of achieving a wider listening area. Can you get optimal imaging with this approach? http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/smile.gif

------------------
Managing Editor,
Widescreen Review
www.widescreenreview.com


[This message has been edited by Perry Sun (edited 10-01-2001).]

Managing Editor,
Widescreen Review

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Perry Sun is offline  
post #11 of 28 Old 10-01-2001, 10:16 PM
Member
 
evilhomer!'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: San Diego, California
Posts: 181
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I for one agree with WSR and Richard Hardesty that HT should be better than the movie theater. I have yet to visit a movie theater that sounds better than my humble HT. Why not use the lessons learned by audiophiles over many years o High Fidelity and Imaging and apply them to HT?

The system sounded really good, but it was hard for me to tell how good because I was very unfamiliar with most of the material Then we played Titan AE. WOW! There was a lot of detail I have never heard before. The room is very solid. I heard no sound coming from vibrations in the room. It was loud, tight bass. The center channel bottomed out but we were playing this at reference level. They explained to us that they were about to get a sub for the center channel.

As for the narrow sweet spot, every HT has only one sweet spot, the mail listening chair.

------------------
Mario_C

My Audio & Video System
evilhomer! is offline  
post #12 of 28 Old 10-01-2001, 10:18 PM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
Rice Rocket's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Central CA
Posts: 960
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 22
Hi Perry!

Thanks for the great time again, and for being such gracious hosts!

Quote:
The experience of audio through a speaker system basically boils down to tonal resolution, dynamic range and imaging.
Perhaps, although I believe there are other considerations.

Quote:
For imaging (which will be of particular importance with multichannel music), you can really only get the optimal experience from a limited, often single seating area.
Agreed. However, for a home theater, my personal preference is to make minor compromises so as to ensure that a larger audience than one would experience good sound during movies. And while enthusiasts may listen to multi-channel audio solo, it is impractical in most home theaters to design for a perfect setup for BOTH multi-channel audio and movies.

Gary Reber made a great point about getting better sound in our home theaters than in the Cineplex. However, the reality is that none of the studios (that I know of) re-adjusts their mixes to account for playback in a "home theater" setup. Rather, the audio mix on movies are basically mixed for the cineplex.

I'm also not so sure about multi-channel music-only mixes (not movies) that place instruments discretely behind the listening position. It's novel, and it works to great effect with certain types of music. But for most mixes (say 90% of what I listen to), I'd rather have everything in front of me, and the rear channels used for ambience enhancement only.

There is no doubt in my mind that you guys have a wonderfully accurate and revealing setup with fantastic imaging, albeit for one. Not many of us even could afford the cost, nor the space, for five or more full-range speakers (flat from 20Hz to 20kHz) for the individual channels. Then add more subs for the LFE channel.

A revealing setup like WSR's is great for reviewing or monitoring. However, on a practical side in the real world, accuracy is sometimes less important. As an example, I would never suffer through an overly bright movie soundtrack--thank goodness for high frequency re-eq on many processors. My LFE is cranked a measured +4 dB to suite my "taste." I also use tactile transducers to add excitement to movies. I tend towards no futzing with the original mix or sound, but I won't hesitate to make benign changes to suit my taste either.

So while I don't subscribe 100% to THX's view on this, I can appreciate where there're coming from. THX is also in the business to sell more of its licenses; which means more speakers, electronics, et al. http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/biggrin.gif What they're advocating with Ultra2 isn't really all that practical anyway--it's tough enough on the WAF to place two speakers in optimal positions, let alone six or more.

I can definitely appreciate yours and WSR's viewpoint on this as well. Personally, I'm somewhere in the middle. http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/smile.gif In a perfect world, I would have two separate setups in two separate rooms--one for audio only, and another for movies.
Rice Rocket is offline  
post #13 of 28 Old 10-01-2001, 10:46 PM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
Rice Rocket's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Central CA
Posts: 960
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 22
BTW, I should note that I have definitely experienced a setup with a much wider sweet spot. But the speakers used were designed specifically with this in mind--the Legacy Audio Whisper. From what I remember, you could put two seats in the middle and sit on either slightly off-center seat, you'd have to listen hard to notice the very miniscule difference versus sitting in a centered seat. It was a truly amazing experience.

Another observation: I have never been in a home theater room with a lower noise floor, which I believe is a crucial contributor to the dazzling dynamic range we heard at the WSR demo.

In any case, I am in agreement with the fact that one could, and should easily get better audio in a modest home theater than in almost any cineplex. That certainly is the case with my own setup.

P.S. I actually don't use a front center speaker because I prefer the sound without one in my particular setup. No one seems the wiser, as all my guests are flabbergasted when I tell them they've been listening to a system without one. http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/smile.gif I guess my system won't qualify as a home theater setup to the Good Guys/Best Buy/Circuit City sales drones... http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/tongue.gif
Rice Rocket is offline  
post #14 of 28 Old 10-02-2001, 01:56 AM
AVS Special Member
 
mhafner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 4,605
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Liked: 28
[quote]Originally posted by Rice Rocket:
Yesterday, some forum members were invited guests at the new Widescreen Review Facility. I'll detail other aspects of the visit elsewhere, and concentrate on some of the not-yet-released, but widely anticipated DVD's that we got to view firsthand.

SuperBit Fifth Element vs. old version

P.S. We watched the SuperBit Diva scene at the end for the heck of it. Also got to see the hijacking part of the SuperBit AFO--the audio was breathtaking.


In the Diva scene, is there still the ringing in the background behind the the diva? What about EE?
regards
Michel Hafner


mhafner is offline  
post #15 of 28 Old 10-02-2001, 02:44 PM
Advanced Member
 
Bhagi Katbamna's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Missouri
Posts: 876
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10

Quote:
I for one agree with WSR and Richard Hardesty that HT should be better than the movie theater. I have yet to visit a movie theater that sounds better than my humble HT. Why not use the lessons learned by audiophiles over many years o High Fidelity and Imaging and apply them to HT?
My hometheater is not shabby but I thought the Luxor Cinemax sounded better when I saw Fantasia 2000 there.

------------------
In the joy of others lies our own, in the progress of others lies our own.

Give me ten men like Clouseau, and I could destroy the world.
Bhagi Katbamna is offline  
post #16 of 28 Old 10-02-2001, 04:00 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Chad Varnadore's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Salisbury, NC
Posts: 1,450
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 48
Maybe this is Lucas' way of saying "Don't push me to release my films before I'm ready." Or maybe he just wants to ensure we all run to get the Super Special ED. in 2005 or 2006. Assuming it's better.

DVD Review just posted a review of the Crouching Tiger... Superbit release.

Chad

Chad Varnadore <><
ex-armchair quarterback
***************

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Chad Varnadore is offline  
post #17 of 28 Old 10-03-2001, 12:27 AM
AVS Special Member
 
robena's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 1,682
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Quote:
I actually don't use a front center speaker because I prefer the sound without one in my particular setup.
At least somebody who saw the light!
When listening from the sweet spot, a center speaker, generally sited below the screen, just collapses the natural stereo image. Compared to a phantom center setup, you get a tiny sound coming from a small box instead of a natural and realistic focused sound image.
The center speaker is only useful for people sitting on the side. For the listener in the sweet spot, it destroys the image.
It's always a compromise: either it's a tiny box under the screen, or it's a full size speaker behind it which requires a perf screen, degrading both the sound and the image.

------------------
Robert

Robert
robena is online now  
post #18 of 28 Old 10-06-2001, 01:10 AM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
Rice Rocket's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Central CA
Posts: 960
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 22
Quote:
When listening from the sweet spot, a center speaker, generally sited below the screen, just collapses the natural stereo image.
That's exactly what I found from my own experimentation! Whether this is the best setup for everybody is dependant on the setup. I have heard at least one remarkable setup with a transparent center channel, whereby I could not tell the difference as to when they had the center channel on or off. The setup included $14,500 Legacy Audio Whisper for front left/right with the huge (including dual 15" drivers!) $2,400 Marquis center speaker. The front soundstage was seamless!
Rice Rocket is offline  
post #19 of 28 Old 10-06-2001, 07:11 AM
kal
AVS Special Member
 
kal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 7,252
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 33
Quote:
Originally posted by mhafner:
In the Diva scene, is there still the ringing in the background behind the the diva? What about EE?
Can anyone comment on this? I'd be curious to know as well if they've reduced the amount EE, or is this something that's added during the transfer process so that nothing can be done by simply re-doing the MPEG2 compression like most Superbit DVD's (other then Desperado - which also has a new transfer)?

Kal

------------------
BarcoGraphics 800 CRT projector (1280x720@72Hz)
8' wide 1.4 gain 16x9 ratio homemade screen
Sources: HDTV & HTPC DVD

Editor:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
, Founder:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
|
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

 


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

kal is offline  
post #20 of 28 Old 10-06-2001, 10:40 AM
AVS Special Member
 
David600's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: the REAL cinema experience at home: THAT's the trick.
Posts: 4,397
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
OT center speaker: ideally, a center ( or even 2 center speakers ), with a micro perforated screen (with gain and curved ) represents to me the best solution. left and right speakers, for home theater, should be left on the side of the screen however if it's around 80-120" (above that width, they could be placed behind). Equalization and especially horns are must: non-horned, low sensitivity speakers pain behind a perforated screen: horns help project much better mediums and highs through the screen.

I listen in 4.1 myself because I my 120" screen is not perforated. the sound is excellent but limits evidently the number of viewers as far as centered dialogues are concerned.

end of OT.

have you guys seen Bjoern's post on 5TH ELEMENT superbit? goodie goodie !!!
David600 is offline  
post #21 of 28 Old 10-06-2001, 02:10 PM
AVS Special Member
 
sspears's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 1999
Location: Sammamish, WA, USA
Posts: 5,246
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 18 Post(s)
Liked: 53
Quote:
I submit that they should have allocated another 754 KBps (for full-rate) to the DTS audio instead, and picture quality would not have been sacrificed.
I don't agree. In fact, Gary asked this question during the Superbit press conference at Cedia. The authoring guy (forget his name at the moment) said that using full bitrate would actually make the picture worse than the original release. They would have to use more compression because full bitrate DTS eats up way too much disc space.

Personally I feel they should drop the DTS track all together. Superbit is a step in the right direction, but it still does not push the full potential of the DVD format.

David, I have Episode 1 on LD and it too has edge enhancement.

[This message has been edited by sspears (edited 10-06-2001).]

Stacey Spears
Co-Creator,
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

sspears is offline  
post #22 of 28 Old 10-06-2001, 02:34 PM
Member
 
evilhomer!'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: San Diego, California
Posts: 181
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Or they could have droped the DD track.

------------------
Mario_C

My Audio & Video System
evilhomer! is offline  
post #23 of 28 Old 10-06-2001, 03:25 PM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
Rice Rocket's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Central CA
Posts: 960
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 22
Quote:
Personally I feel they should drop the DTS track all together.
Wow! That's not surprising considering that you are the Video Editor for HT HiFi! http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/wink.gif More bits for the video, right? I lean more towards better sound in a movie, because it carries the emotion and pathos.

Question: Which is scarier? A silent horror movie, or a horror story on the radio replete with sound effects? http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/smile.gif
Rice Rocket is offline  
post #24 of 28 Old 10-06-2001, 09:34 PM
AVS Special Member
 
robena's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 1,682
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Quote:
Personally I feel they should drop the DTS track all together.
I agree.
Being an audiophile, I favor the sound above all.
But on a good system(Proceed + Goldmund all over), DTS sounds consistently worse than AC3, being shrill, especially on voices. Somebody in the high-end HIFI manufacturing business told me that AC3 compresses better than DTS even with a lower bit rate, and my ears agree. DTS for me is just a lot of hype.
When I see a 2 hours+ movies with DD, DTS, 1 or 2 foreign languages and a ton of supplements, I cringe.
So, yes, loose everything other than the movie and the AC3 track. That is until the next HD-DVD generation which 150 Gb capacity should allow multichanel 96/24 audio without compromise.

------------------
Robert

[This message has been edited by robena (edited 10-07-2001).]

Robert
robena is online now  
post #25 of 28 Old 10-06-2001, 11:33 PM
AVS Special Member
 
John Kotches's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Troy, IL USA (St. Louis Area)
Posts: 7,687
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Well at the risk of repeating myself.

EvilHomer!:

You can't delete the DD soundtrack, either DD or a PCM soundtrack is required in the DVD-Video spec.

Net loss would still be about 300kb/s

Regards,



------------------
---
Editor, PC/Home Theater Secrets of Home Theater and High Fidelity

Contributing Editor & Surround Music Reviewer
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Opinions are mine, not the publication I write for.
John Kotches is offline  
post #26 of 28 Old 10-06-2001, 11:39 PM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
Rice Rocket's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Central CA
Posts: 960
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 22
Robert: I have to disagree. IMHO, DD can sound very good, but DTS sounds even better. There is a spaciouness, and coherence to the soundstage that's inferior with DD. And then there's the one-noted bass with DD--DTS has the edge with much better delineation, clarity and depth on the ".1" channel.

One thing for sure, DD tends to hide the bright soundtracks better, but at the expense of ultimate transparency. Perhaps DD does handle the "hardening" of the sound due to bit-starvation better than DTS. But often with DD, especially when there's a lot of things going on in the sound track in all channels (music, sound effects, dialog, et al.), DTS provides more detail and less of a "constricted" sound.

Oftentimes, the "shrillness" that you detect in movie soundtrack is a by-product of mixing for the cineplex. Appropriately, a lot of home theater processors (including the high end) provide attenuation to combat this--some using THX's Re-Eq spec, others like the Theta CB II use their own.

One thing for sure, either way is a compromise because both use lossy compression. Hopefully in the future, there will be a audio format that is used on a home video medium that will feature non-lossy compression like Meridian's MLP. I wouldn't hold my breath though...
Rice Rocket is offline  
post #27 of 28 Old 10-06-2001, 11:41 PM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
Rice Rocket's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Central CA
Posts: 960
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 22
John: Would a DD 2.0 track take up less bandwidth than the a DD 5.1 track or does it depend on something else?
Rice Rocket is offline  
post #28 of 28 Old 10-07-2001, 06:07 AM
AVS Special Member
 
John Kotches's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Troy, IL USA (St. Louis Area)
Posts: 7,687
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Wow, there must be an echo.

DD2.0 384 or 448 kb/s.
DD5.1 384 or 448 kb/s.

Before you say well that's silly.
DTS 2.0 768 or 1536 mb/s
DTS 6.1 768 or 1536 mb/s

But lossy encoding isn't just about the available bandwidth. There are other considerations as well.

A fun experiment would be to take a DVD-A recording and feed it into a DD and DTS encoder and compare the two decoders output vs the original sample. No level differences or mix variation http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/wink.gif

Regards,



------------------
---
Editor, PC/Home Theater Secrets of Home Theater and High Fidelity

Contributing Editor & Surround Music Reviewer
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Opinions are mine, not the publication I write for.
John Kotches is offline  
Closed Thread Movies, Concerts, and Music Discussion

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off