The "Evil Empire" is US according to Lucas.. - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 805 Old 05-26-2005, 09:09 AM
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Originally Posted by NewNameGuy
Oh, give it up. Now you are really grasping at the most tenuous of straws for justification.

A) No evidence promised payments from Iraq to families of Palestinian terrorists ever influenced the number of terror attempts.

B) No evidence that the removal of Saddam has lead to a decrease in payments to families of terrorists.

C) No evidence that there has been a decrease in the number of attempted Palestinian terrorist attacks. Was has happened is that the Israelis built a huge frikken wall and got really good at stopping attacks before they occurs. According to Israeli military figures cited by The Washington Post on Tuesday, two of three bombers reached their targets in 2001, before Israel began construction of its security barrier. This year the fraction has fallen to one in nine. "The reason we don't have [as many] Israeli casualties is because we are successful in fighting terror," Foreign Ministry official Gideon Meir told the Post. "We are pinpointing more and more terrorists."

To summarize: Saddam's payments weren't the cause of palestinian terrorists trying to attack Israel. Saddam's removal has not lead to Palesinian's no longer wanting to attack Israel. Attacks are down (but certainly not nonexistent) because Israel has gotten good at stopping them.
I could go on and on and on, but I no longer waste time with your kind of thinking. Truly pointless.

I bet you supported Clinton when he went into Bosnia and Somalia to "help people". But you sure don't give a crap about the atrocities in Iraq because George W. did it.

It's so transparent. Go rent Band of Brothers and thank your lucky stars that this country wasn't built by people like you.

I'm out.

Luck happens when preparation meets opportunity.
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post #92 of 805 Old 05-26-2005, 09:13 AM
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Originally Posted by RobertWood

"In 2001, as the bombs began to drop, George W. Bush promised Afghanistan "the generosity of America and its allies". Now, the familiar old warlords are regaining power, religious fundamentalism is renewing its grip and military skirmishes continue routinely. In "liberated" Afghanistan, America has its military base and pipeline access, while the people have the warlords who are, says one woman, "in many ways worse than the Taliban".

While President Bush refers to the US attacks on Afghanistan and Iraq as two 'great victories', Pilger asks the question - victories over whom, and for what purpose? Pilger describes Afghanistan as a country "more devastated than anything I have seen since Pol Pot's Cambodia". He finds that Al-Qaida has not been defeated and that the Taliban is re-emerging. And of the "victory" in Iraq, he asks: "Is this Bush's Vietnam?"

Dangit. If we coulda just had team america to call the shots instead. Yep. Bill, Monica, Sean Penn, Teddy Kennedy and that West Virginny pork barrel guy (old whatshisname). Man just think what we coulda done with brainpower like that.
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post #93 of 805 Old 05-26-2005, 09:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Erod
... painfully bad dialogue, George.
Now there's something we can all agree on from either side of the aisle.
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post #94 of 805 Old 05-26-2005, 09:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Erod
I could go on and on and on, but I no longer waste time with your kind of thinking. Truly pointless.
My kind of thinking???

My thinking is that if Saddam's offer of payments didn't cause Palestinian terror, we shouldn't say that it did.

My thinking is that if Saddam's removal isn't the reason for a reduction in successful Palestinian terror attackcs, we shouldn't suggest that it is.

Are you really calling that kind of thinking pointless? Is that the kind of thinking you no longer waste your time on?
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post #95 of 805 Old 05-26-2005, 09:54 AM
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Originally Posted by NewNameGuy
My kind of thinking???

My thinking is that if Saddam's offer of payments didn't cause Palestinian terror, we shouldn't say that it did.

My thinking is that if Saddam's removal isn't the reason for a reduction in successful Palestinian terror attackcs, we shouldn't suggest that it is.

Are you really calling that kind of thinking pointless? Is that the kind of thinking you no longer waste your time on?
It's not pointless at all to explore those possibilities. But that is what they are, possibilities.

Unless you are in some position within our government or the Israeli government to have some inside knowledge of the actual causes and effects then your kind of thinking is basically that of an armchair general. An armchair general whose bias toward only one aspect of the situation comes across clearly.
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post #96 of 805 Old 05-26-2005, 10:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Erod
Is it just me, or are Palestinian terrorist attacks almost nonexistent since Sadaam stopped paying for them?
So money is the motivation for suicide attacks? And when the money motivation disappears, the attacks stop?

Well, money might be the motivation for imperialism but I doubt that it is the motivation for insurgency.
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post #97 of 805 Old 05-26-2005, 10:05 AM
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I bet you supported Clinton when he went into Bosnia and Somalia to "help people". But you sure don't give a crap about the atrocities in Iraq because George W. did it.
But that's not why we went into Iraq. That was a justification created after the fact. Bosnia and Somalia were both gone into for the reasons stated, and therefore everyone could pass their judgement on whether it was right or wrong. I have no problem with knocking Sadam off the throne. But I'd imagine that if GB had indicated that we were going to invade Iraq because Sadam was suppressing his people, that we wouldn't be there right now, because folks like you wouldn't have supported it.

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post #98 of 805 Old 05-26-2005, 10:06 AM
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Unless you are in some position within our government or the Israeli government to have some inside knowledge of the actual causes and effects then your kind of thinking is basically that of an armchair general. An armchair general whose bias toward only one aspect of the situation comes across clearly.
He quoted an Israeli official whose statement supported his point. So, at least so far, he's the only one who has presented any real evidence.

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post #99 of 805 Old 05-26-2005, 10:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Erod
Is it just me, or are Palestinian terrorist attacks almost nonexistent since Sadaam stopped paying for them?
I seem to recall a change in leadership in the PLO. I wonder if this might have had anything to do with it. :rolleyes:

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post #100 of 805 Old 05-26-2005, 10:38 AM
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Now there's something we can all agree on from either side of the aisle.
Actually, if you post a thread here saying that GL writes horrible dialog and therefore the SW's movies aren't that great, you may find that it's a more contentious issue than Israel and Palestine!

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post #101 of 805 Old 05-26-2005, 10:42 AM
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Originally Posted by RobertWood
Dangit. If we coulda just had team america to call the shots instead. Yep. Bill, Monica, Sean Penn, Teddy Kennedy and that West Virginny pork barrel guy (old whatshisname). Man just think what we coulda done with brainpower like that.
Yeah, I think about it all the time. We would not have invaded Iraq, we would have finished off Al Queda in Afghanistan and, most importantly, would have maintained good relations with the rest of the world, an imperative if we are to "win" the war on terror. Instead, our moral authority has been squandered, we're despised the world over, and we're in far greater danger now from terrorist attack than we were before those neocon knuckleheads decided it would be "easy" to remake Iraq into our country's largest filling station. Impeachment proceedings against Bush should have begun immediately after we found out how badly and deliberately they misled us into this quagmire, but the Republican majority in Congress made that impossible.
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post #102 of 805 Old 05-26-2005, 10:48 AM
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Impeachment proceedings against Bush should have begun immediately after we found out how badly and deliberately they misled us into this quagmire, but the Republican majority in Congress made that impossible.
I disagree with that. I think that the whole impeachement thing is thrown around way too much these days. I think is that impeachement proceedings against Clinton for not wanting to tell people about his sex life was utterly juvenile and shallow. I wouldn't want to continue with that kind of silliness.

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post #103 of 805 Old 05-26-2005, 10:48 AM
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We're there (Iraq). That's a given. Now what happens?

Does anyone here sincerely and honestly believe that democracy can last in Iraq if the US military is not in Iraq?
Since I think I know the answer to that question, the next question is "are we going to occupy Iraq forever or at some point will we leave Iraq like we did Vietnam?

Additionally, if Iran becomes in possession of nuclear weapons, will Israel (with the aid of the US). or the US itself, have to invade Iran too? And will that trigger a much more massive conflict in the Middle East?

And when Islamic terrorists finally get their hands on a nuclear weapon, and use it on the US or it's allies, will that spark a conflict that develops into something unimaginable?

And as the world's supply of fossil fuel becomes more and more exhausted, at the same time the developing nations demand more and more of it, what unimaginable conflict will ensue from that. And will it wreak havoc on the world's economies and throw us into a worldwide depression?
And will your grandchildren be living in poverty and chaos?

[EDIT] Oh and finally, what does George Lucas advise about this?

[EDIT] Whoops, I almost forgot. Will the asian bird flu kill most of us off before we have to worry about any of this?

[OKAY, LAST EDIT I PROMISE] Will the jury find Jacko innocent or guilty? And if it's guilty, will the teeny-boppers still scream when he leaves the courtroom?
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post #104 of 805 Old 05-26-2005, 11:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Dean Roddey
He quoted an Israeli official whose statement supported his point. So, at least so far, he's the only one who has presented any real evidence.
If quotes by government officials are hard evidence, then I can prove just about anything I want to.

The source of the argument that cutting off money from Saddam is the reason for the dropoff of Palestinian terrorist attacks is also from government officials.

I fail to see how people can take only the quotes that support their viewpoint as good evidence, while dismissing quotes that don't.

For instance, earlier in this thread this issue of two Presidents lying came up. The Clinton case of lying is fairly certain since he admitted it. In the case of Bush, he claims it was bad information. If one is to make a decision based just on quotes from government officials, one could certainly say that he lied because some officials have claimed such. But looking at the whole picture, almost no one in an official capacity, from either side, has claimed that Bush outright lied. The best case that can be made in this regard is incompetance; and that more from the intelligence community.

While none of us have to necessarily agree on who is right and who is wrong. It would be nice to at least be consistent in our reasoning. Rabid one-sidedness will never convince me of anything, and, as a matter of fact, pushes me farther away from the obviously biased position.

This holds true of the argument that the Empire in Star Wars is based on the U.S. There are definitely some well thought-out reasons for holding this view which make a compelling case. But the whole rabid, U.S. is evil and all our civil liberties have gone away, Bush is the Emperor, arguments just don't wash. The more radical they are, the more they argue against the own viewpoint.

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post #105 of 805 Old 05-26-2005, 11:05 AM
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Originally Posted by RobertWood
Additionally, if Iran becomes in possession of nuclear weapons, will Israel (with the aid of the US). or the US itself, have to invade Iran too? And will that trigger a much more massive conflict in the Middle East?
Lots of good questions there, Bob, but the answer to this one is pretty easy. One thing that's been made abundantly clear is if you want to avoid any chance of U.S. invasion of your country, you'd better have nukes; we don't invade anyone who can realistically fight back. Iran and N.Korea have learned that lesson, hence their crash programs to develop such weapons and the obfuscation & delaying tactics with regard to those programs.

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Oh and finally, what does George Lucas advise about this?
Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Apparently we need to be reminded of this now and then.
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post #106 of 805 Old 05-26-2005, 11:14 AM
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Originally Posted by archiguy
One thing that's been made abundantly clear is if you want to avoid any chance of U.S. invasion of your country, you'd better have nukes; we don't invade anyone who can realistically fight back.
Okay, I'll accept that (for now). But when push really came to shove, wasn't there another Jacko who in in 1962 was prepared to do exactly that?

Speaking of Jacko's. What will it be? Guilty or innocent?
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post #107 of 805 Old 05-26-2005, 11:20 AM
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If quotes by government officials are hard evidence, then I can prove just about anything I want to.
So doesn't that mean that, if you require that only someone who is actually involved can have a valid position, and that almost the only folks actually involved are govt. officials, and that nothing that govt. officials say can be believed, then that nothing can be proven wrt to political issues in the world?


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The source of the argument that cutting off money from Saddam is the reason for the dropoff of Palestinian terrorist attacks is also from government officials.
Sorry, I didn't remember that one. What govt was that from?

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I fail to see how people can take only the quotes that support their viewpoint as good evidence, while dismissing quotes that don't.
I didn't dismiss any quotes, since I didn't remember you having posted one.


But on the particular issue that was in question, the fact that Palestine now has a new leader who actually wants peace seems to be far and away the biggest reason for the change. He is making a real atttempt to crack down. This new leadership had to do with the death of the old, nothing to do with Saddam. Does anyone here think that if Saddam hadn't made any payments that those attackes wouldn't have happened?

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post #108 of 805 Old 05-26-2005, 11:27 AM
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Originally Posted by watchformore
In the case of Bush, he claims it was bad information. If one is to make a decision based just on quotes from government officials, one could certainly say that he lied because some officials have claimed such. But looking at the whole picture, almost no one in an official capacity, from either side, has claimed that Bush outright lied. The best case that can be made in this regard is incompetance; and that more from the intelligence community.
-- Greg
There was a Frontline program last year which examined in great detail the history of our run-up to the Iraqi war. What they found was that all 12 intelligence agencies involved with either the civilian government or the military services gave variations of the same report: no WMD's. Vice President Cheney kept sending these reports back, again and again, to be "revised" until they gave him the conclusion the Administration wanted. George Tenant, as one example, was only too glad to comply and was recently rewarded for his blind loyalty with The Medal of Freedom. The U.N. Inspection teams, as well as U.S. advisors to that team, gave similar reports: no evidence of any WMD's. There was no legitimate evidence to support the Administration's claims, as we've come to see.

In addition, evidence has come out in the last few weeks from Great Britian that states that the Bush Administration had made up its mind to invade Iraq and was demanding that the intelligence be altered to support the plan. Gee, big surprise there. If that's not an impeachable offense, I don't know what is. (Oops, adultery!) :rolleyes:

Sure, I'll agree with you that incompetence played a big part, and these guys have raised incompetence to a new level. But a deliberate, premeditated plan of deception and misinformation was devised to get the American people to sign on. Dean is right when he states above that the people never would have condoned the Iraqi War based on the now-stated reasons of deposing an evil dictator who killed thousands of his own people, blah, blah, blah. If that high moral purpose was actually true, don't you think we'd be sending a few divisions to Darfur to stop the genocide? But, of course, Sudan isn't floating on an ocean of oil. Wake up and smell the petrol.
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post #109 of 805 Old 05-26-2005, 11:30 AM
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Originally Posted by nirvana_av
So money is the motivation for suicide attacks? And when the money motivation disappears, the attacks stop?

Well, money might be the motivation for imperialism but I doubt that it is the motivation for insurgency.
Why do people insist on calling these people "Insurgents". They are not insurgents, they are "Terrorists"!

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post #110 of 805 Old 05-26-2005, 11:34 AM
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Originally Posted by JerryT
Why do people insist on calling these people "Insurgents". They are not insurgents, they are "Terrorists"!
Terrorism is a tactic. I'm asking you to THINK about what could possibly be the motivation of a "terrorist"? If the motivation is to overthrow the established power (The Empire), then they are unsurgents (The Rebel Alliance).
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post #111 of 805 Old 05-26-2005, 11:34 AM
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Why do people insist on calling these people "Insurgents". They are not insurgents, they are "Terrorists"!
Who are we talking about? The situation in Palestine is not the same as in Iraq. And it's a waste of time anyway to argue what they are called. One man's insurgent is another man's terrorist, and vice versa. If the term terrorist had existed in the 1700's I'm sure that many of the American colonists would have been called terrorists by Britain.

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post #112 of 805 Old 05-26-2005, 11:54 AM
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Folks,

An artiste generally portrays his/her ideas. The mode of expression could be a play, a book, a painting, a poem, or a film. In a free, developed society, such an artiste has absolute freedom of expression (Freedom of Speech). He/she can express whatever ideas they like.

Freedom of Speech is a fundamental right in the United States. In many other countries this right does not exist. Ideally, Freedom of Speech should necessarily mean that an artiste has the freedom to even criticize and condemn the very institution (in this case, the U.S.) that provides him/her this freedom. Without this tolerance on the part of the freedom-provider, the freedom it claims to provide becomes utterly meaningless.

I remember in the 90s, during the Million Man March, Louis Farakkan made a speech at Capitol Hill. In it, he thanked God for the fact that he lived among such a great society that allowed him condemn them! He said that in any other country, he may have already been killed or otherwise punished for his criticism.

George Lucas is an artiste. In the U.S., he should have the fundamental right to freely express whatever ideas he may harbor. Whether or not the citizens agree with GL's viewpoint, they should be able to take pride in the fact that their society gave him the freedom to "speak!" In the end, this translates to each citizen possessing the right to free speech.

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post #113 of 805 Old 05-26-2005, 12:04 PM
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Originally Posted by NewNameGuy
My kind of thinking???

My thinking is that if Saddam's offer of payments didn't cause Palestinian terror, we shouldn't say that it did.
Theres SO many causes to Terror its silly to try to blame one thing or another, and NOBODY is innocent: religous zealots on both sides; 1st world governments constant meddling in arab lands; CIA payments to terrorists; arab payments to terrorists; gunho fighters on both sides who basically like to kill; civilization's overdependence on oil; geopolitical strategists who feel they need to influence events all over the world; rich arab businessmen; international corporations; sky bombers who fly hundreds of airplanes and missles to far away places and blow up loved people; ancient religous books that are filled with laughably disproven historical fiction about natural history; these books instruct billions of followers to follow these bizarre ancient dogmatic practices; the followers of these books themselves for not putting 2+2 together, etc etc etc!
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post #114 of 805 Old 05-26-2005, 12:23 PM
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I've tried my best to be impartial. To sit on the fence. I've listened to Rush and Al, paying equal attention to both. I've read the New York Times and the Washington Times.
I've watched Fox News and I've read the BBC and the Islamic news websites, including Al Jazeera. Always trying to walk in the mocassins of whichever Indians are talking.

But now I've read archie's post #106. If, and I stress a big if here, if what archie has outlined in that post is factual, and only if it is factual, I'm starting to feel the splinters in my a@@ from sitting on that fence so long. I may can't stand the uncomfortablness of the fence much longer.

Secondly, to the moderators and administrator of this forum. I urge you, before you decide that you don't wish this thread to continue, to first please read the post made by the gentleman in Sri Lanka, mpedris (post #110). Please at least consider what he's expressed in that post before making your decision.

Lastly, to everyone here. Please do your best to avoid using words like "silly" and "idiots" and "moron" and any words like that. I do believe those words were a primary motivation for why the rule was established limiting our conversation here. Try your best to express what you feel without showing disrespect for those you disagree with. It is easy to get all your points across without the need for that.
For example, if you want to take issue with what I just said in the 2nd paragraph in this post, please by all means do so, I welcome that. I sincerely and truly do. But please don't use those words. That will serve only to make me jump off the fence quicker. Say wise and reasonable things which will pull those splinters out of my butt and get me back up on that fence where I belong.
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post #115 of 805 Old 05-26-2005, 12:36 PM
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Originally Posted by JohnR_IN_LA
Theres SO many causes to Terror its silly to try to blame one thing or another, and NOBODY is innocent
Great post!

Even though I probably wouldn't list all of the contributing factors that you did, or at least in the manner that you did, it's a breath of fresh air to see there are people out there who don't see the world in absolutes of black and white.
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post #116 of 805 Old 05-26-2005, 12:45 PM
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Originally Posted by RobertWood
if what archie has outlined in that post is factual, and only if it is factual, I'm starting to feel the splinters in my a@@ from sitting on that fence so long.
Unfortunately, as I was describing earlier, archie comes across as very one-sided on these issues. I may have missed it, but I don't think I've ever read a positive comment from him about conservatives or our current President. No benefit of the doubt. Always the worse possible interpretations of events.

The claims being made about intentional rewriting of intelligence information cross the line over into conspiracy theory. Despite at least two bipartisan investigations of the situation leading up to the war in Iraq, these claims fly in the face of their findings. As with all conspiracy theories, the preponderance of the evidence does nothing to sway their adherents.
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post #117 of 805 Old 05-26-2005, 01:01 PM
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Originally Posted by RobertWood
But now I've read archie's post #106. If, and I stress a big if here, if what archie has outlined in that post is factual, and only if it is factual, I'm starting to feel the splinters in my a@@ from sitting on that fence so long.
Bob, those "if's" are hurtful. I would never post anything that wasn't factual. The reverenced Frontline episode is available on DVD from pbs.org http://www.shoppbs.org/product/index...ge=family]here . It's something everybody should see (and conservatives will avoid like the plague - you know, Hear No Evil, See No Evil, etc.).

The report referenced in the second paragraph came out within the last month but got, curiously, very little play in the U.S. media. Here in my hometown "liberal" newspaper (so say the always-indignant letters-to-the-editor) it was buried on page 10. A search should allow you to find something about it.
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post #118 of 805 Old 05-26-2005, 01:14 PM
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Originally Posted by watchformore
Unfortunately, as I was describing earlier, archie comes across as very one-sided on these issues. I may have missed it, but I don't think I've ever read a positive comment from him about conservatives or our current President. No benefit of the doubt. Always the worse possible interpretations of events.

The claims being made about intentional rewriting of intelligence information cross the line over into conspiracy theory. Despite at least two bipartisan investigations of the situation leading up to the war in Iraq, these claims fly in the face of their findings. As with all conspiracy theories, the preponderance of the evidence does nothing to sway their adherents.
Well, I am one-sided, but it's the right side. :) I really don't have anything positive to say about the current administration because, literally, everything that has come out of it is bad for America and most Americans. I say most because there is a small group of people that benefit strongly from these policies. But the facts speak for themselves, for Pete's sake; no need to artifically enhance anything for effect. The Frontline episode I referenced can be found here. I would recommend you watch it and see for yourself, but I know you won't (Hear No Evil, See No Evil, etc.). But perhaps Bob will if he has doubts about these claims.

The report from the U.K. I referenced in the second paragraph was released in the last month and was in all the papers, but shouldn't surprise anyone, as the charge of the Bush Administration ginning up a false case for war has been made hundreds of times by folks far more eloquent than me and there's a mountain of evidence to support it. Conspiracy theory? You've got to be kidding. :rolleyes:
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post #119 of 805 Old 05-26-2005, 01:38 PM
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And of course Frontline is a show on PBS, and we all know what an unbiased and fair network they are. :rolleyes:

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post #120 of 805 Old 05-26-2005, 01:45 PM
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This is precisely why I've come to the conclusion that we shouldn't have fought the Revolutionary War. And that we would have been better off just to be the subjects of a king.

See, a democracy (or more accurately a democratic republic) works like this. Most people in the country are like me. They see smart people on one side argue one way and smart people on the other side argue the other way. And then they open the polling places and decide which representative of which smart people is given the power to rule.
BUT, the problem is, all the people like me aint smart enough to know which smart people is right. So which ruler sits on the throne is decided by unsmartness. And that can only lead to heartache for all us unsmart people.

But in a monarchy, it's always a fairly smart dude who is the automatic ruler. He comes from a long line of fairly smart dudes so it's pretty assured that he's one too. He doesn't have to rule based on the erroneous conclusions of all the unsmart subjects. He just goes ahead and rules with smartness.

Sure, there will always be some kings who are smarter than others. But all kings are smart enough. You don't wind up with people who say "it depends on what the meaning of the word is, is". Or people who say "nucular".

I'm not kidding, I'm completely sincere about this. So think about it before you knee-jerk disagree. I'm now an advocate of a United States King.
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