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post #271 of 691 Old 03-21-2006, 08:17 PM
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due to your preeminent qualifications as a bouncer

He never said that, I did. That was only one of the things he has done, and I only brought it up because you were mixing him and Tom up. And again, *you* brought up an "us vs. them" viewpoint, and I originally wrote a response, but you are applying my response on Lurch as if he was the one who said it, though I was speaking from my own viewpoint.
See, there are a few of us in the thread, and we are all different people.
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post #272 of 691 Old 03-21-2006, 08:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Steve Crowley View Post

Another band that was talented was Triumvirat. Illusions on a Double Dimple, Sparticus and Pompeii were very prog back in the day. .

I love Jurgen Fritz's playing! Triumvirate got a bad rap as an ELP clone band in much the same way that Starcastle got pegged as a Yes clone band. They certainly had a major ELP influence but Jurgen's style was really closer to the Italian prog bands though (PFM, Banco). Spartacus has some wince inducing vocal sections but overall it's one of my favorite albums from the 70's...

Sorry, back to the flame wars!

Don't taze me, bro!!
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post #273 of 691 Old 03-21-2006, 08:31 PM
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Squonk, I'll make this easy so you know who's who.


Tom- was in a band in the 70's. Was a bouncer and still plays stuff. Not sure what else he does.

Lurch- was in a band in 1983. Also has worked bounce, show promotion, venue and door (80's/90's). Used to run a record store. Retired (promotionally and musically).

Me- was in a band 1992-94. Also has done show promotion, venue and door ('80's/90's). Retired (promotionally and musically).
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post #274 of 691 Old 03-21-2006, 08:35 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by deeann View Post

He never said that, I did. That was only one of the things he has done, and I only brought it up because you were mixing him and Tom up. And again, *you* brought up an "us vs. them" viewpoint, and I originally wrote a response, but you are applying my response on Lurch as if he was the one who said it, though I was speaking from my own viewpoint.
See, there are a few of us in the thread, and we are all different people.

exactly what kind of weed are you punkers smoking? You said lurch worked as a bouncer didn't you? So I referred to his job as a bouncer. Do you have a problem following that? Were you just making up the bouncer part?
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post #275 of 691 Old 03-21-2006, 08:38 PM
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Originally Posted by squonk View Post



If someone makes the completely mistaken oversimplification statement that all punk was a reaction to Yes, ELP, Kansas and Foreigner and bands of that "ilk" I will state they are wrong every day until the cows come home.

Well, that about says it all then. No interest in historical accuracy. It wasn't JUST about that, but that was a big component of it.

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That is simply wrong, an oversimplification and exhibits a fundamental misunderstanding of the origins of punk which started much earlier in the music of Velvet Underground, Stooges, MC5 etc, and was a reaction to a far broader range of things than just that music. No one yet in this thread has commented on my statement that early punk was a reaction to jam band noodling by bands such as Grateful Dead and the whole psychedelic era, and also to the rock star excesses of bands like Led Zeppelin, where Jimmy Page used to play the guitar during drugged out 20 minute solos with a violin bow.

Yeah - if you were following along, I already agreed with that. My above comment is that these all are of "that ilk."


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And if people keep misquoting and trying to spin what I say, I will call them wrong.

There was no misquoting, spin, etc, when you called him wrong. He was just stating some facts.

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The fact that some guy might have worked as a bouncer at a bar or concert hall doesn't give them more punk credibility than anyone else who has ears and can read.

No, but that also doesn't mean they weren't around the punk "scene" at the time and knew, as most did, what was going on.

Quote:


Once again, what does "immersed in the genre" mean? You mean because someone worked as a bouncer or at a record store that automatically means they understand the 'punk music genre' better than me?

No - let me spell it out: they went to shows, they knew bands, they were in bands, they hung around punks, they lived it. They didn't just pick up a record here and there. They didn't just go to a show and wear leather pants to feel good. OK, I'll hate myself for this, because I hate doing stuff like this, but take a listen to (or just read the lyrics to) the DK's song "Halloween." It was common then. Possibly more common now.

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I also was a teenager in the 70s. How am I not qualified to give my opinion?

a) it is an opinon, and you claim to care about historical accuracy which would have nothing to do with opinions, which might well come from the people actually involved;
b) being a teenager in the 70s doesn't mean anything. Prior to your saying that you found out about the veggie/non-veggie thing with Wakeman and the rest of Yes, I would have said you could run rings around me in your knowledge about the band. But then again, maybe I actually know more about them? Or knew more about them earlier on then you did? But then again, a true Yes fan wouldn't want to hear what Wakeman (or presumably the others) had to say. So I guess it's a moot point.

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I worked my way through college working in a steel factory for years. Does that qualify me to opine re punk music?

Nope.

Quote:


Is it because I didn't JUST own punk records, but also prog and pop and Sinatra etc that makes me not "immersed" and thus not qualified to speak about punk music and its place in music history? This may be the dumbest statement uttered yet.

No one said you couldn't speak about it. It's your refusal to accept the fact that there might be things you could learn. Rather than telling people they're wrong just because they know a little bit more from being a part of it. And there's the "big man" jock attitude creeping in.

Quote:


There you go again. More stereotyping. First of all, no, I did not see bands of "jocks" running around terrorizing punks.

First off, where exactly did I say "terrorizing." Secondly, great for you - but then again, you had no metalheads, yet lots of metalheads, on your football field (can't keep things straight apparently). There were lots of fights, many instigated by jocks. If you want to ignore that fact, then that's just fine. At the same time, you could say, "wow, I never knew that!" But that apparently is beyond your capacity. So I guess I am just wrong. Let it be known now and for always that there was never a problem between punks and jocks (or rednecks for that matter) because Squonk didn't see it - so it never, ever happened. Depsite the documentation from the time and the people's memories from the time.


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Like any high school, there were fights between all different types of people. From my experience, I would say most fights were between the metalhead pot smokers amongst themselves. But who cares? Get over it. What relevance does that have with prog and punk music?

Not much. Historically, it is an issue. But mostly, it relates to your refusal to learn anything from folks who were actually involved, because it would appear that would make you some kind of lesser person. Because you think you are right, even if presented evidence from those who were involved. And that was kind of an attitude that went along with jocks.


Quote:


Why are you still reliving your high school days?

Oh, come on. You don't reminisce sometimes? Or run into people who act like they were still there?


[QUOTENow we are getting to the real crux of the problem. You apparantly have not completely grown up. [/quote]

Nope. Proud of it. Then again, I am fine with learning new stuff from people who know more about things. A problem for you. So who has not grown up more?

Quote:


You are still clinging to your old stereotypes from bygone high school days and maintaining some kind of "us" against "them" mentality, where the "us" is apparantly tough guy punk rockers who are the only ones qualified to pontificate about the origins of punk rock music and its place in history, due to your preeminent qualifications as a bouncer and narrow music focus, and "them" who are apparantly in your mind are prog loving jocks who are not allowed to speak about punk rock. Wow. I repeat. Wow.


There ya go. Lots of 'em weren't tough at all. I'd explain some of this, but you have no interest in finding out anything about this that actually was going on. And yes, the people who were actually involved in punk might well be the best to bring historical info into a conversation. Then again, what do people who were involved in something know anything about it, right? Yeah, they wouldn't know anything compared to someone who picked up a record here and there to add to their diverse collection. Typically, historians specialize in a field. And typically, people like to learn from them. It's silly ANY of us might be considered "historians" and all... but apparently enough time has passed where that might just be the case.
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post #276 of 691 Old 03-21-2006, 08:38 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by deeann View Post

Squonk, I'll make this easy so you know who's who.


Tom- was in a band in the 70's. Was a bouncer and still plays stuff. Not sure what else he does.

Lurch- was in a band in 1983. Also has worked bounce, show promotion, venue and door (80's/90's). Used to run a record store. Retired (promotionally and musically).

Me- was in a band 1992-94. Also has done show promotion, venue and door ('80's/90's). Retired (promotionally and musically).

Good job, very nice. So when I refer to either lurch or Tom working as a bouncer, I would be correct then, wouldn't I? Just because I referred to lurch's job as a bouncer does not mean that I am referring to Tom' job as a bouncer. Got it? Now go back to your doob.
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post #277 of 691 Old 03-21-2006, 08:45 PM
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You would be correct in saying that they both worked bounce, but at least in Lurch's case you were applying that to him as if *he* stated that gave him _credibility_. Which he never said it did. I don't know if I can be any more clear than that.

If I did smoke the wacky stuff I would be asleep by now as it is disagreeable with me, but thanks for the assumption!!
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post #278 of 691 Old 03-21-2006, 08:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by squonk View Post

Good job, very nice. So when I refer to either lurch or Tom working as a bouncer, I would be correct then, wouldn't I? Just because I referred to lurch's job as a bouncer does not mean that I am referring to Tom' job as a bouncer. Got it? Now go back to your doob.


No - you questioned "Or are you simply more qualified to give opinions on punk because you may have bashed some skulls in as a bouncer?"

I have never bashed some skulls in as a bouncer which is what you said, and you simply confused me with someone else who posted. And that was a component of your argument. However, rather than saying "oops!" - you have to come back with this. Can never admit you were wrong. And again, *that* is where some of the jock reference thing comes in. I was not exactly a bouncer, but more security at punk shows for a while. I could tell the difference between an actual fight and people having fun. This was not my entree to punk - not by a long shot. Had been going to many, many, many shows for years before.
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post #279 of 691 Old 03-21-2006, 09:07 PM
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I'm sad as I disappeared for a week and missed out on all the fun before it degenerated into more petty stuff.

But count me in with those who believe that prog rock (and other rock forms that focused on technical musicianship, 7+ minute songs, etc) was a major part of what fueled both 77 era punk and 80s hardcore punk music. This has been stated time and time again by the artists of these eras/scenes in numerous interviews and documentaries, specifically mentioning most of the bands that Lurch mentioned. I can't understand why this is even being argued as even without the words of the musicians the music speaks for itself.
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post #280 of 691 Old 03-21-2006, 09:08 PM - Thread Starter
 
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[quote=lurch4711].
Quote:


It wasn't JUST about that


So you agree that it was an oversimplification. Especially since Foreigner didn't have a hit record until 1977 or so. Thanks for making my point--it only took 10 pages.


Quote:


Yeah - if you were following along, I already agreed with that. My above comment is that these all are of "that ilk."



Grateful Dead, Led Zeppelin, Yes, ELP Foreigner and Boston are all very different bands from different genres. They are not all of the same "ilk". You are wrong. Yes and ELP may be the most similar, but the rest are from different music genres.




Quote:


There was no misquoting, spin, etc, when you called him wrong. He was just stating some facts

Which were incorrect.





Quote:


No - let me spell it out: they went to shows, they knew bands, they were in bands, they hung around punks, they lived it. They didn't just pick up a record here and there. They didn't just go to a show and wear leather pants to feel good.

So, what are the exact requirements to be considered a punk rocker? Apparantly you have very stringent requirements to be able to ponificate about punk. How many shows do you need to go to live to qualify? 5? 20? 50? hundreds? I want specifics. And does that mean that if you didn't go see a lot of live punk bands in the mid 70's, but were a big punk fan by buying albums and listening to the music, that does NOT qualify one to opine about punk?

I went to shows, I listened to punk albums, I went to parties where punk was played, I went to clubs, I bought some music. How much is enough? And who made you the Grand Poobah Arbiter of Who Qualifies as Punk? What about a poor schmo living in Wichita Kansas who didn't have access to clubs like in the bigger cities and thus couldn't hang in the "scene" like you did? Does that mean he could never be qualified to give opinions on punk music? Does that mean that the only TRUE punk rockers were the ones who went to CBGBs early on, and the rest of you 80's latecomers are just pretenders?



Quote:


No one said you couldn't speak about it. It's your refusal to accept the fact that there might be things you could learn. Rather than telling people they're wrong just because they know a little bit more from being a part of it. And there's the "big man" jock attitude creeping in.


There you go--more stereotyping. You just can't help yourself can you. I never said I couldn't learn anything. But that does not mean I can't correct something which is simply wrong or an oversimplification. According to you, though, you have to have been in the punk scene (as yet still vague and undefined) to give any valid opinion on music history.



Quote:


Let it be known now and for always that there was never a problem between punks and jocks (or rednecks for that matter) because Squonk didn't see it - so it never, ever happened.


More stereotyping. I never said never. You did. Again, another misquote and spin to suit your argument. And who cares? What is the point? Get over it? What does it matter? What does it have to do with punk and prog?


Quote:


Not much. Historically, it is an issue. But mostly, it relates to your refusal to learn anything from folks who were actually involved, because it would appear that would make you some kind of lesser person. Because you think you are right, even if presented evidence from those who were involved. And that was kind of an attitude that went along with jocks

Still more stereotyping. Invloved in what? How? How much? What were the exact requriements to be able to give an opinion on punk? How many live shows? How many mohawks? How many safety pins? Educate us O Great Punk Guru?




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Oh, come on. You don't reminisce sometimes? Or run into people who act like they were still there?

Not like you. I grew up and moved on.
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post #281 of 691 Old 03-21-2006, 09:12 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by lurch4711 View Post

No - you questioned "Or are you simply more qualified to give opinions on punk because you may have bashed some skulls in as a bouncer?"

I have never bashed some skulls in as a bouncer which is what you said, and you simply confused me with someone else who posted.


I didn't say you bashed in skulls as a bouncer, I said you may have and posed it as a question. And I posed it because Tom said he had, and I wanted to see what your response was. Got it?
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post #282 of 691 Old 03-21-2006, 09:19 PM
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Originally Posted by FredProgGH View Post

Of course, you had the occasional jock that moved amongst the tribes (as they say in SLC Punk) and was equally at home with the heads.

Man, I'm going to go watch Freaks And Geeks now

Man, you just named two of my fav's. Got the F&G limited edition box set...the one with the full high school yearbook as the "box." That was one of the best shows on TV. Too bad they never let it find an audience. It would be on for 2 weeks, then off for 3, then on for 2, then off...then switched nights...then in the guide as being on, but pre-empted by a rerun of some other show....then they cancel it because it wasn't getting ratings. Well, no sh!t...Hard to gain an audience when nobody knows when it's on.

And, gotta love SLC Punk...

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post #283 of 691 Old 03-21-2006, 09:22 PM
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Originally Posted by lurch4711 View Post

Or even better - Square Pegs! If you have it on tape from some long ago TV showing

They were showing Square Pegs reruns a couple months ago...don't remember what channel, but I tivo'd a bunch of them. I totally forgot that Devo made an appearance, playing at the high school dance. (Freaks and Geeks was a much better show, though....)

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post #284 of 691 Old 03-21-2006, 09:23 PM
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Wow, I stumbled across this thread and quite enjoyed it, at least in its infancy, before the my mohawk is truer than your mohawk stage. It is (painfully) obvious that people have strong feelings about music, particularly about that which they like and that which they dislike. Of course, that is at least part of the reasons why music holds such a special place in each and every one of us.

From the ashes of that passion, folks have posted some great observations, some satirical, some prophetic, some poetic, and others just outright laugh out loud stuff, including, but not limited to:

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Originally Posted by Rutgar, Post 21 View Post

Absolutely. Bands like U2 play within the framework. The Beatles... Created the framework.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rutgar, Post 22 View Post

I bought the Sex Pistols LP when it first came out. I thought it was some of the most horrible sounding trash I'd ever heard. And my poor turntable OD'd from a dirty needle.

Rutgar was on a roll here, at least when he was participating in this thread.

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Originally Posted by GreySkies, Post 28 View Post

Are you saying that Sid Vicious is (was) not as good a bass player than Greg Lake?

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Originally Posted by Dean Roddey, Post 49 View Post

That's true, but when you are talking about influence, the people on the other side of The Beatles who don't look any further back than that to see where The Beatles came from, by definition, aren't influenced directly by those precursor artists. They are indirectly influenced, but if you include that, then some Greek guy with a lute is probably the all time undisputed greatest influence of all time on western music.

Dean gets my nod for the best one in the thread. I love that one about the guy with the lute.

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Originally Posted by Dean Roddey, Post 99 View Post

I seldom seem to meet people who have my own breadth of appreciation of music. I guess I'm just a sonic slut.

Dean, I had no idea when we connected at tzucc's BAAS meeting that you were a slut.

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I'll give you that but the black population sees it more as Elvis the white boy stealing rhythm and blues and calling it his own and making big money off of it.

It is amazing more people don't acknowledge this. I'm not saying it's completely true, but it is undeniable it is at least partially true. I seem to remember Elvis being quoted as saying: The only things black people can do for me is buy my records and shine my shoes.

And, finally, an accurate assessment of this thread, or at least the last several pages of it:
Quote:
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Squonk - we're just going in circles

It is too bad neither side read those words carefully. Many pages and posts later, you folks still are running in circles. Squonk, you Prog head, give it up. It's just not worth it. Lurch, you slam dancer, give it up. Both of you have made your points ad nauseum. Neither of you are adding anything constructive to this thread at this point, unless you consider personal attacks to be constructive.

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post #285 of 691 Old 03-21-2006, 09:39 PM
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[quote=squonk]
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Originally Posted by lurch4711 View Post

.
So you agree that it was an oversimplification. Especially since Foreigner didn't have a hit record until 1977 or so. Thanks for making my point--it only took 10 pages.

No, I agreed with it sometime ago. Not 10 pages. But you were too busy denying many things from those who might know more than you might to even notice.

Quote:


Grateful Dead, Led Zeppelin, Yes, ELP Foreigner and Boston are all very different bands from different genres. They are not all of the same "ilk". You are wrong. Yes and ELP may be the most similar, but the rest are from different music genres.

True - but then again, it's generally all of the same ilk. To some people - like me.

Quote:


Which were incorrect.

But they weren't. And that's where you're wrong. And you don't seem to have the history to back it up, but others do.

Quote:


So, what are the exact requirements to be considered a punk rocker? Apparantly you have very stringent requirements to be able to ponificate about punk. How many shows do you need to go to live to qualify? 5? 20? 50? hundreds? I want specifics. And does that mean that if you didn't go see a lot of live punk bands in the mid 70's, but were a big punk fan by buying albums and listening to the music, that does NOT qualify one to opine about punk?


You can opine all ya want. But if you actually care about historical accuracy as you claim, you might be interested in those who were involved actually take the time to tell you. But nope. Then again, you probably wouldn't believe anything someone who was involved in *anything* would have to say about it unless it agreed what you had already deemed to be true. For instance, throw out any autobiographical books if it disagrees with your "opinion" of what was happening with the person or the time the person was around. I mean, they wouldn't know compared to your opinion of what was happening with that person or at that time, huh? However, just because you bought some albums does not mean that you know anything besides the track list on the albums and what the songs sound like. Oh, I take that back - it clearly means that you would know more than people who were actually involved with it on a daily basis.

Quote:


I went to shows, I listened to punk albums, I went to parties where punk was played, I went to clubs, I bought some music. How much is enough?

Well, if you were so involved where you actually interacted all of the time, then I guess your posts are nothing but trolling. Or, you didn't know a whole lot about what was going on at the time, and it's never too late to learn. But that is a huge problem for you for whatever reason.


Quote:


And who made you the Grand Poobah Arbiter of Who Qualifies as Punk?

I did. So there. Heh. It's got nothing to do with that. It's got to do with others who might know more than you. But again, for some reason, learning something would make you feel like a lesser person. I think I was right originally - you feel a lot bigger/better than others if your musical diversity is bigger than there's. I bet your "speakers" are bigger than mine, too. Heh.

Quote:


What about a poor schmo living in Wichita Kansas who didn't have access to clubs like in the bigger cities and thus couldn't hang in the "scene" like you did?

Well, this is just wrong. These people often travelled out of their towns to see shows. Pick up an old MRR to read about this kind of thing *from* those people. If you were going to all the shows that you claim and talking to people and stuff, you would have run into them. *I* was from a town like this, but not in the Midwest. DeeAnn lived, not in Kansas, but in North Dakota and other states in the area. She found ways of getting the music and learning what was going on (long before I knew her). Then again, I am sure I am just wrong about this because it is something you didn't know about before.



Quote:


Does that mean he could never be qualified to give opinions on punk music? Does that mean that the only TRUE punk rockers were the ones who went to CBGBs early on, and the rest of you 80's latecomers are just pretenders?

Nope. Not at all. Lots of them knew what was going on, despite there being no internet and being "isolated." They just had to work at it. Because they cared. And having to explain this just further shows that there is plenty you could still learn. It's actually kind of sad you are not open to it.


Quote:


There you go--more stereotyping. You just can't help yourself can you. I never said I couldn't learn anything. But that does not mean I can't correct something which is simply wrong or an oversimplification.

Quote:


According to you, though, you have to have been in the punk scene (as yet still vague and undefined) to give any valid opinion on music history.

No. Again with the word "opinion" from a guy who is into historical accuracy. So you don't think that somebody who "lived" something (no matter what) would maybe know a little bit more about it than someone who didn't? Hell, the stories I have gotten from Vietnam vets who I have known about the war has certainly superseded anything I have read in history books about it. But then again, I guess I prefer my info from the actual source.

Quote:


More stereotyping. I never said never. You did.

Correct, but it seemed pretty clearly implied. You didn't come back with, "I never saw it, because that didn't happen where I was, but it might have been (or was) happening in other places." Nope. Nothing along those lines. And this was in reply to my asking the series of questions about whether you were trying to say this was not a problem in places. But ceding any kind of point might damage something(?) about you personally somehow? Or something? I have no idea.

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Again, another misquote and spin to suit your argument. And who cares? What is the point? Get over it? What does it matter? What does it have to do with punk and prog?

The only thing it has to do with is your attitude that you know everything over people who were actually involved at the time. Your disdain of and refusal to learn from anyone else, as you already know everything from some unknown source(s).

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Still more stereotyping. Invloved in what? How? How much? What were the exact requriements to be able to give an opinion on punk? How many live shows? How many mohawks? How many safety pins? Educate us O Great Punk Guru?

Learn from others. Or stay ignorant. Your choice. Which I guess you have already made. But you shouldn't claim you care about historical accuracy if that is the case, because it's too easy for others to see through that at times.

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Not like you. I grew up and moved on.

Yeah, well I like me. You moved on. And in so doing, have no interest in learning stuff from those who might know more. For whatever reason.
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post #286 of 691 Old 03-21-2006, 09:41 PM
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I didn't say you bashed in skulls as a bouncer, I said you may have and posed it as a question. And I posed it because Tom said he had, and I wanted to see what your response was. Got it?

Ah - missed the word "may." Got it. See, *I* can admit stuff. T'ain't so hard.
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post #287 of 691 Old 03-21-2006, 09:50 PM
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It is too bad neither side read those words carefully. Many pages and posts later, you folks still are running in circles. Squonk, you Prog head, give it up. It's just not worth it. Lurch, you slam dancer, give it up. Both of you have made your points ad nauseum. Neither of you are adding anything constructive to this thread at this point, unless you consider personal attacks to be constructive.

Howdy! Yeah, I guess you missed my "suckered" comment, eh? Heh. It was all good until someone decided to just blatantly tell people they were wrong who weren't - and then keep insisting on it. And changing around their own posts and stuff. I imagine most people bailed from this awhile ago. Too bad - I am still *really* interested in the original subject. See post #266. That wasn't me just being a jerk. It's a thing I don't quite get and would love to see discussion on.
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post #288 of 691 Old 03-21-2006, 10:00 PM
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Ron (I Am A Wild) Party, great summation of some of the better points so far. Very helpful!

And anyone who gets that reference wins a Lager and Ale (unless they're Canadian).

Don't taze me, bro!!
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post #289 of 691 Old 03-21-2006, 10:03 PM
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I must'a tossed ole Squonk out of a show once and he landed on his head.

He sure likes to argue. A couple of people who walked the walk explained some things that were going on and he won't accept it, that's that.

Elvis never made that slur about Blacks being fit only for shining his shoes, though many believe he said it. Urban myth.
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. And you don't seem to have the history to back it up, but others do.

---------------------------------




However, just because you bought some albums does not mean that you know anything besides the track list on the albums and what the songs sound like.
----------------------------------------------------

It's actually kind of sad you are not open to it.


------------------------------------------------------




The only thing it has to do with is your attitude that you know everything over people who were actually involved at the time.




Congratulations, you completely avoided giving me any specifics, despite my numerous requests, as to what qualifies one specifically to give opinions or state facts with regard to punk rock. I asked for your base qualifications and you have avoided an answer. In other words, you have yet to define exactly what level of involvement QUALIFIES one to speak with authority or give opinions regarding punk rock music history. Until that is precisely defined, this is all hogwash. Up to now, all I have heard is--you need to go to shows and hang with people in the scene, and it helps if you were either a bouncer at a punk club or worked in a record store. That's all we've heard so far.

One thing is clear--you simply will refuse to acknowledge the validity of anything I say regarding punk rock and punk history (which is interrelated and part of music history in general) no matter what "qualifications" I have because of some warped stereotype you have of people who played sports (or due to some bad scene that happened years ago that you were involved in) and of people who listen to progressive rock. It does not matter how many records I have listened to, how many shows that are punk, post punk or punk influenced that I have been to, because in your mind I was not part of the "scene"--again as yet undefined--my observations mean nothing.

Open to what? I have and like a lot of punk music--I have written numerous posts about it already. In fact, there are not many true "prog-heads" that I have met that are fans of many of the bands that I like that are punk or punk related. Yet you seem unable to fathom this.

In sum, I think at the root of it is your refusal to acknowledge that someone like me who--gasp--likes the hated "progressive rock" could also, at the same time, like and acknowledge some punk and punk related music and actually know a thing or two about it.(and again, just because I think the Sex pistols were garbage does not mean I paint all punk with that brush) It is antithetical to everything you have built up in your mind that fits your pre-concieved stereotype of what a true "punker" should be. I don't fit your pre-concieved mold and you can't deal with it--thus for you I could never understand because I didn't experience your "scene". Well deal with it. I'm a prog loving former jock that listens to punk too, and knows a thing or two about music history--at least enough to correct misperceptions, mistatements and stereotypes. Sorry to shatter that little fantasy world of yours.
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post #291 of 691 Old 03-21-2006, 10:24 PM
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Originally Posted by lurch4711 View Post

Howdy! Yeah, I guess you missed my "suckered" comment, eh? Heh. It was all good until someone decided to just blatantly tell people they were wrong who weren't - and then keep insisting on it. And changing around their own posts and stuff. I imagine most people bailed from this awhile ago. Too bad - I am still *really* interested in the original subject. See post #266. That wasn't me just being a jerk. It's a thing I don't quite get and would love to see discussion on.

No, no, no. You've done your fair share of calling squonk wrong when he wasn't. Both of you are guilty.

Moving on is the idea, however. How about this as a jumping off point with respect to the Sex Pistols. Here is my idea, and I welcome any non-flame "my &%! is bigger than your &%!" responses, whether or not anyone agrees.

First of all, my idea intentionally ignores the obvious issues surrounding legitimacy of a Rock N Roll Hall of Fame (hereinafter "ROR HoF") since, of course, any such discussion probably is likely to lead to another flame war. Instead, for purposes of discussion, I'm going to assume (at my own risk) there is a legitimate, hypethetical, RNR HoF.

Having states this, I think that longevity would necessarily be a strong, but not necessarily exclusive, factor for qualification to the RNR HoF. By way of analogy, a professional baseball player has a game where he hits 5 grand slams. Outside of this game, he is an average hitter at best and would otherwise not qualify for the baseball HoF. However, Cooperstown calls this player and asks him for the bat he used so it can be put on display at the Hall.

Back to the Sex Pistols. Since I'd consider longevity to be a strong factor, one album by itself would almost never - and if I thought about it long enough, maybe one album by itself would in fact never - be enough to get the artist into the RNR HoF.

On the other hand, Never Mind The Bollocks stands out in many ways as one of the seminal albums of its time and it has withstood the test of time and, as such, satisfies the longevity requirement in a very different way. As such, just like the baseball player's bat, I'd put the Never Mind album cover on display at the RNR HoF.
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No, no, no. You've done your fair share of calling squonk wrong when he wasn't. Both of you are guilty.

Moving on is the idea, however. How about this as a jumping off point with respect to the Sex Pistols. Here is my idea, and I welcome any non-flame "my &%! is bigger than your &%!" responses, whether or not anyone agrees.

First of all, my idea intentionally ignores the obvious issues surrounding legitimacy of a Rock N Roll Hall of Fame (hereinafter "ROR HoF") since, of course, any such discussion probably is likely to lead to another flame war. Instead, for purposes of discussion, I'm going to assume (at my own risk) there is a legitimate, hypethetical, RNR HoF.

Having states this, I think that longevity would necessarily be a strong, but not necessarily exclusive, factor for qualification to the RNR HoF. By way of analogy, a professional baseball player has a game where he hits 5 grand slams. Outside of this game, he is an average hitter at best and would otherwise not qualify for the baseball HoF. However, Cooperstown calls this player and asks him for the bat he used so it can be put on display at the Hall.

Back to the Sex Pistols. Since I'd consider longevity to be a strong factor, one album by itself would almost never - and if I thought about it long enough, maybe one album by itself would in fact never - be enough to get the artist into the RNR HoF.

On the other hand, Never Mind The Bollocks stands out in many ways as one of the seminal albums of its time and it has withstood the test of time and, as such, satisfies the longevity requirement in a very different way. As such, just like the baseball player's bat, I'd put the Never Mind album cover on display at the RNR HoF.

that is a nice analogy and I could live with that. Still doesn't address the omissions of Yes and Genesis, among others, who have not only played for 20 or 30 years, but have way over 3000 hits and 500 home runs.
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post #293 of 691 Old 03-21-2006, 10:41 PM
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re: Elvis "stealing" black music
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It is amazing more people don't acknowledge this. I'm not saying it's completely true, but it is undeniable it is at least partially true. I seem to remember Elvis being quoted as saying: The only things black people can do for me is buy my records and shine my shoes.

While some of this certainly did happen a lot of this is revisionist history. It really wasn't Elvis or any other musician's fault that a fair amount of radio wouldn't even play black music. Hell even getting white people playing rock and roll on the radio or in the jukeboxes in some regions was quite a struggle. Elvis and others were one means of packaging this to the masses but if that's all Elvis was he'd be like all the other white copy cats that history has long forgotten of which there are many.

And as has been previously mentioned Elvis never said the quote that many have attributed to him. He also had a number of black performers with him during much of his career, especially the gospel and Vegas portions, and most if not all are on record as saying that he took very good care of them.
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post #294 of 691 Old 03-21-2006, 10:58 PM
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I'm not sure I personally would go with the longevity criteria for a music HoF. Obviously a sports institution has objective criteria to use in its selections that art doesn't. So if it were up to me any band that had an (arguably) important but brief career would be eligible (say, The Stooges or Velvet Underground). But I think the real R&RHoF is in fact looking at more long term staying power as a major factor. Which, really, again makes it odd that Yes aren't being considered- they are still around and made huge piles of money back in the day.

Don't taze me, bro!!
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post #295 of 691 Old 03-21-2006, 11:03 PM
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No, no, no. You've done your fair share of calling squonk wrong when he wasn't. Both of you are guilty.

Yeah - I don't know - it was fine until he blatantly stated Tom was wrong (in exactly those words) when he wasn't. He can tell me I'm wrong until he's blue in the face. Of course, none of this matters. I'll disappear again, and Squonk will go on thinking he knows everything, being wrong, and claiming the desire for historical accuracy. I admit I don't know everything. He can't do that. But now he's really just becoming a troll.

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First of all, my idea intentionally ignores the obvious issues surrounding legitimacy of a Rock N Roll Hall of Fame (hereinafter "ROR HoF") since, of course, any such discussion probably is likely to lead to another flame war. Instead, for purposes of discussion, I'm going to assume (at my own risk) there is a legitimate, hypethetical, RNR HoF

Well, the sports analogy is basically lost on me , but I would agree with what you are saying overall. The problem is not only that these decisions are made by a handful of people under some kind of vague qualifications apparently only known by them resulting in a popularity contest, but that the importance of that "contest" has now spread through the US (and maybe other countries?) wherein it is of utmost importance to fans. And it has somehow become possibly even more important than any historical legacy outside of it. But dang it, now I have gone and ignored the " I'm going to assume there is a legitimate, hypethetical, RNR HoF."

But yeah, assuming that, you're probably right.

Quote:


Back to the Sex Pistols. Since I'd consider longevity to be a strong factor, one album by itself would almost never - and if I thought about it long enough, maybe one album by itself would in fact never - be enough to get the artist into the RNR HoF. On the other hand, Never Mind The Bollocks stands out in many ways as one of the seminal albums of its time and it has withstood the test of time and, as such, satisfies the longevity requirement in a very different way. As such, just like the baseball player's bat, I'd put the Never Mind album cover on display at the RNR HoF.

Even at the expense of the band's desires and possibly the genre they come from (the latter being a potentially debatable issue), though?
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post #296 of 691 Old 03-21-2006, 11:08 PM
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Congratulations, you completely avoided giving me any specifics, despite my numerous requests, as to what qualifies one specifically to give opinions or state facts with regard to punk rock. I asked for your base qualifications and you have avoided an answer.

Because it is silly. However, from what you have posted and your knowledge, it is not whatever you have done. But then again, you have now definitely become simply a troll (note: contradicting yourself between posts, "mixing up" posters, etc.).
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post #297 of 691 Old 03-21-2006, 11:10 PM
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I must'a tossed ole Squonk out of a show once and he landed on his head.

He sure likes to argue. A couple of people who walked the walk explained some things that were going on and he won't accept it, that's that.

Yeah, what can ya do...

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Elvis never made that slur about Blacks being fit only for shining his shoes, though many believe he said it. Urban myth.

Yeah, what can ya do...
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post #298 of 691 Old 03-21-2006, 11:43 PM
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The story always was Sam Phillips heard Muddy Waters and said "Man if we can find a white man that can play this music we'll make a fortune." Hence Elvis, Jerry Lee, etc. The only problem with that is they weren't really playing muddy's music. Its more complicated than that. Mystery Train (I think thats the title-its been decades since I read it) has some great stuff on just how hard and long Elvis, Scotty and company worked to create those first Sun records-it didn't just happen.
As someone trying to understand the appeal of punk I was most interested in what those who loved that music thought about it. And there have been some on this thread that spoke honestly about it without bashing other musical tastes, so I really thought this thread could go some place. squonk; you did say some good things before your emotions got the better of you and I'm sorry for my little outburst about Neil. Can't even tell you why it upset me. But as one who considers Buffalo Springfield Again still the greatest record ever made I don't think NY was ever really punk. He might have some of the same goals, but those are pretty common among all rock acts I think. Thats the thing, its only rock and roll...

"There is no truth. There's just what you believe."
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post #299 of 691 Old 03-21-2006, 11:53 PM
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So anyways lurch: Heard much Robert Johnson? Don't get much rawer than that. And the thing is that the man would not have any idea what a metaphor was, didn't even write the words down to his songs. So when he sings about Hellhounds On His Trail, for example, he's talking about ....

"There is no truth. There's just what you believe."
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post #300 of 691 Old 03-21-2006, 11:55 PM
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Was Neil Young punk? he has, on occasion sounded a bit punk (Rocking In The Free World, say). And he has on occasion had sentiments that are a bit punk, you know, being anti-establishment and angry. But I don't think you can be a punk if you don't self-identify as a punk. Being a punk is very much about fashion- not just clothes and hair, necessarily, though that's part of it- but by fashion I mean part of being punk is how you come across to the world as a punk. So, Pete Townshend who embodies very much of what punk is all about philosophically is himself not a punk. (Indeed, The Who is part of what punk rebelled against even though many punks love The Who and Pete loved a lot of punk- more irony for you). I really think to be a punk you have to look punk and stand up and say "I'm a punk." Which is why I was never a punk, though I like a lot of the music OK.

Don't taze me, bro!!
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