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post #361 of 691 Old 03-22-2006, 04:15 PM
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I took my two sons to Ramones shows back in the 70s and I took them to the show at Beginnings when my band opened for The Jam. They were what, 5 or 6 at the oldest and remember those shows well.

They loved The Ramones. Kiss too.
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post #362 of 691 Old 03-22-2006, 04:21 PM
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Another interesting take on why punk was necessary, from a June 1976 article:

Quote:


One major lesson can be learnt from the '60s, however, and that is that the best, most healthy kind of rock and roll is produced by and for the same generation.

There can be no question that a lot of today's rock is isolated from the broad mass of its audience. From the superstars with champagne and coke parties all the way down to your humble servant spending more time with his friends, his writing, and his cat than he does cruising the street, all are cut off.

If rock is not being currently presented in an acceptable manner, and from the letters we've been getting at NME, this would seem to be the case, it is time for the '70s generation to start producing their own ideas, and ease out the old farts who are still pushing tired ideas left over from the '60s.

The time seems to be right for original thinking and new inventive concepts, not only in the music but in the way it is staged and promoted. It may be difficult in the current economic climate, and it may be a question of taking rock back to street level and starting all over again...

Putting The Beatles back together isn't going to be the salvation of rock and roll. Four kids playing to their own contemporaries in a dirty cellar might.

And that, gentle reader, is where you come in.

Personally, I think that second to last sentence hits the nail on the head, and goes back to what I was saying early on in this thread. A big part of the punk movement was the idea that anyone could form a band and start making music...Rock and roll wasn't some mystical mountain top where only the jet-setting millionaires or people with "connections" need apply. It was taking rock and roll "back to street level" and kids playing for other kids.

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post #363 of 691 Old 03-22-2006, 04:28 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gecko85 View Post

Jeez. You're so persecuted and misunderstood, you poor man! You're whipping yourself into a frenzy over a "credibility" issue that you've invented yourself and keep trying to run into the ground. As for your other "apparent" observations, you're way off base. Not even close. But then, that doesn't surprise me in the least. You're quite good at inventing your own reality.

Hopefully the rest of us can continue having a fun conversation in this thread. You're not even worth responding to any more.

LOL. When someone questions my credibility or authority to state something, and does so on the basis of oversimplification and stereotyping, I will defend myself every time. No one is saying they were persecuted and no one is whipping themselves into a frenzy. If my exploration of what are the parameters of what constitutes the threshold level to be able to make statements about punk music history bothers you because you may be exposed in the process, so be it.
I really didn't expect further responses from you once it became apparant that you were running away from a simple question as how old you were in 1977. Hey, that's OK, some of us were there and some of us were not. I'm not the one trying to set up restrictions on who has punk "cred" and who does not. As far as I'm concerned, you established your punk music credentials for me with your very first statement in this thread when you agreed with me that the Sex Pistols were a fraud that didn't belong in the ROR Hall of Fame.
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post #364 of 691 Old 03-22-2006, 04:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by squonk View Post

If my exploration of what are the parameters of what constitutes the threshold level to be able to make statements about punk music history bothers you because you may be exposed in the process, so be it.
I really didn't expect further responses from you once it became apparant that you were running away from a simple question as how old you were in 1977. Hey, that's OK, some of us were there and some of us were not. I'm not the one trying to set up restrictions on who has punk "cred" and who does not.

Wow. You're a real piece of work. I have no need or reason to justify myself to you by telling you how old I am. It's none of your business. You're not "exposing" anybody, and nobody's running away from anything. I was there, as a teenager, and that's all that needs to be said.

Don't worry, your "punk cred" is safe. But when you try to argue that punk wasn't in large part a reaction to the music of the time (including your beloved prog rock), then your credibility gets shot. The bands who were part of it say you're wrong. Those writing about it at the time say you're wrong. Many of us who were there say you're wrong. You seem to think that just because you were also there, that somehow saying punk wasn't a reaction to bands like Yes (for example) is a valid opinion. Again, many of the very bands that helped create the movement have said otherwise.

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post #365 of 691 Old 03-22-2006, 05:03 PM
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Originally Posted by lurch4711 View Post

Hmm, now why might that might be
Smart sound guy who clearly knew who they were dealing with.

Definitely- I wonder how many times G.G. finished a gig and the sound guy came up, looked at the mic and said "Hey man- just keep that." G.G. probably was able to pawn them and score a little H that way.

Don't taze me, bro!!
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post #366 of 691 Old 03-22-2006, 05:04 PM - Thread Starter
 
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[quote=Gecko85]
Quote:


Don't worry, your "punk cred" is safe. But when you try to argue that punk wasn't in large part a reaction to the music of the time (including your beloved prog rock), then your credibility gets shot


I NEVER said that punk wasn't in part a reaction to the music of the time. NEVER. And that kind of spinning and mistatement has been a problem in this thread from the beginning. Why do I have to keep repeating this? Go back and read my posts.

What I said was that punk was not JUST a reaction to bands such as Yes and ELP. What I said was it was in part a reaction to various forms of rock music that was popular at the time, including psychedelia such as that typified by the jam bands--Grateful Dead, and even bands such as Led Zeppelin who had become huge arena rock stars and were playing long drugged out guitar solos and living a secluded rock star life. Heck, by 1977 in the US it was even a reaction to overblown silly marketed bands such as KISS, who were wearing clown makeup and producing toys to market to 5 year olds. And it was a reaction against slick AOR formatted rock such as Starship and Little River Band and Fleetwood Mac and the Eagles. And it was a reaction to the safe nonthreatening singer-songwriter movement characterized by James Taylor and the Carpenters. And it was in later days a reaction against the slicked up overproduced sound of disco.

Was some of punk a reaction to the long complex 'serious' musical explorations of prog? Sure. But it is patently WRONG to characterize ALL punk rock as a reaction SOLELY to bands "like" Yes (ie of that ilk, ie progressive rock). The seeds of punk rock as you yourself noted began in the late 60s with bands such as MC5, the Stooges and Velvet Underground, and prog rock had barely even gotten off the ground at that time. So once and for all, stop misquoting me, and give me some frickin credit for knowing a little bit about what I'm talking about.



Quote:


Many of us who were there say you're wrong

.

Where? Where were you? Where was there? When were you there? How old were you when you were "there"?
And exactly how am I wrong? Tell me in what ways any of the above is wrong?
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post #367 of 691 Old 03-22-2006, 05:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FredProgGH View Post

Definitely- I wonder how many times G.G. finished a gig and the sound guy came up, looked at the mic and said "Hey man- just keep that." G.G. probably was able to pawn them and score a little H that way.

FS: One slightly used SM58. Only used for one show.
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post #368 of 691 Old 03-22-2006, 05:18 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by Gecko85 View Post

Having been in high school in the early/mid 80's, and college until the early 90's, I can tell you without question that punk as a social phenomenon was alive and well.


Looks like you were about 7-8 years late.
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post #369 of 691 Old 03-22-2006, 05:22 PM
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Squonk- bro!! Pleeeze don't take this in the wrong way. I think almost all the points you make are good. And I think you and the others are agreeing about 95% and could get along on the rest, but for the point that you're sort of one of those combative type people who gets other people on the defensive even when the argument isn't going badly. I hope this doesn't get me on your wrong side- I'm a proghead, it's in my dang screenname Sorry if I seem like I'm piling on; I'm just saying this in the hopes that the discussion can get a little less tense. You're making sense but people aren't hearing you through the static caused by the way you're saying it.

And you other guys, if Sqounk chills then we all play nice again, right??

Can't we all just get along??


Don't taze me, bro!!
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post #370 of 691 Old 03-22-2006, 05:26 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by FredProgGH View Post

Squonk- bro!! Pleeeze don't take this in the wrong way. I think almost all the points you make are good. And I think you and the others are agreeing about 95% and could get along on the rest, but for the point that you're sort of one of those combative type people who gets other people on the defensive even when the argument isn't going badly. I hope this doesn't get me on your wrong side- I'm a proghead, it's in my dang screenname Sorry if I seem like I'm piling on; I'm just saying this in the hopes that the discussion can get a little less tense. You're making sense but people aren't hearing you through the static caused by the way you're saying it.

And you other guys, if Sqounk chills then we all play nice again, right??

Can't we all just get along??


Hey, that's fine. I just don't like when people tell me I'm wrong or that I don't know what I'm talking about by misquoting and distorting what I said.
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post #371 of 691 Old 03-22-2006, 05:34 PM
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Originally Posted by squonk View Post

Hey, that's fine. I just don't like when people tell me I'm wrong or that I don't know what I'm talking about by misquoting and distorting what I said.

I don't blame you, been there

Don't taze me, bro!!
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post #372 of 691 Old 03-22-2006, 05:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FredProgGH View Post

I don't blame you, been there

ME too but how old were you??
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post #373 of 691 Old 03-22-2006, 06:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FredProgGH View Post

And you other guys, if Sqounk chills then we all play nice again, right??

You bet - just take a look at my other stuff I've posted. Most importantly to me was this:

Originally Posted by Tom Brennan:
Yes, Punk was most certainly a reaction to stupifying bands like Kansas, Foreigner, Boston, ELP, Yes and all that ilk.

From Squonk:
Your characterization of punk as purely a reaction against progressive rock (which by the way Boston and Foreigner are not) is simply wrong and stereotypical, and perpetuates these mistaken stereotypes which you apparantly bought hook line and sinker from the prog hating pro-punk music press from decades ago.
----

He's the one who added in "progressive rock" to Tom's words. Tom was saying that punk was a reaction to bands like those listed (nothing about a genre). And then Squonk states that Tom is wrong. If anyone was twisting and misstating... Sure, it wasn't just those bands - but that is what "all that ilk" was meant to convey, I am sure. Tom probably made the mistake of not listing out hundreds of bands specifically by name. Then again, I always understood "Never Trust A Hippy" without having an itemized list attached to it

But Tom is not wrong in this, and it is a pretty big component in understanding what was going on with punk. Which some people have said they were interested in learning about, so for their sake, it is good to have some accurate info out there. Then again, I orginally entered this thread to help clarify some of The Pistols' history for just the same reason.

But yeah - if he'll play nice - I am enjoying the rest of the conversation that's going on in between his stuff.
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post #374 of 691 Old 03-22-2006, 06:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GreySkies View Post

FS: One slightly used SM58. Only used for one show.

Ya slay me!
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post #375 of 691 Old 03-22-2006, 06:59 PM
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"I just don't like when people tell me I'm wrong or that I don't know what I'm talking about "


Yeah, but it so happens you're wrong and don't know what you're talking about.
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post #376 of 691 Old 03-22-2006, 07:06 PM
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Well OK, so much for that

Don't taze me, bro!!
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post #377 of 691 Old 03-22-2006, 07:25 PM
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Well OK, so much for that

I take it back. You slay me !
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post #378 of 691 Old 03-22-2006, 08:21 PM
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Huh - so flipping through channels, we just happened upon this on Jeopardy:
"With the death of Ian Curtis, this band formed New Order." I don't know how comfortable I am with Joy Division being an answer on a TV game show Seemed remotely on topic to what this thread evolved into, anyway...
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post #379 of 691 Old 03-22-2006, 09:04 PM
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Originally Posted by lurch4711 View Post

I take it back. You slay me !


What, I'm funny? Like a clown?? Do I amuseyou??





That is kind of weird about Joy Division as a game show answer. But man, stop and think how long ago that actully was.

Geeze, now I'm bummed.

Don't taze me, bro!!
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post #380 of 691 Old 03-22-2006, 09:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FredProgGH View Post

What, I'm funny? Like a clown?? Do I amuseyou??



Well, if you wouldn't wear that dang squeaky nose...

Quote:


That is kind of weird about Joy Division as a game show answer. But man, stop and think how long ago that actully was.
Geeze, now I'm bummed.


Glad I could cheer up yer day But seriously, I know what you mean.
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post #381 of 691 Old 03-22-2006, 10:31 PM
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Gee, I thought the mexican food analogy was good. I really thought everyone would slap their forehead and shout "OF COURSE!! The lion would lie with the lamb, lurch would be groovin to Karn Evil 9, I'd win the Nobel Peace Prize... maybe I shoulda made it sushi...yeah, that woulda done it...
Idle question: Is Zappa in the Hall? Cause if you look at it one way you could say he was the father of punk. And yet if you look at it another you could say he was the godfather of progressive..maybe the mother of punk and the 2nd uncle of progressive..the mother of progressive and punk's next door neighbor with the weird slime oozing out of the garage...

"My Guitar Wants To Kill Yer Momma"...Isn't that the point of all rock and roll?

Excuse me now. I have to go make the water turn black.

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post #382 of 691 Old 03-22-2006, 10:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FredProgGH View Post

Definitely- I wonder how many times G.G. finished a gig and the sound guy came up, looked at the mic and said "Hey man- just keep that." G.G. probably was able to pawn them and score a little H that way.

That's too funny. One of my friends was at a G.G. show and G.G. went chasing the audience out of the bar, naked and covered in body waste. when he ran past my friend, who did not run away, G.G. stopped and threw my friend over the bar and then flipped the bar over on him. he had a lawsuit against G.G. for a while before G.G. died.

muncey
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post #383 of 691 Old 03-22-2006, 10:36 PM
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Wow, interesting thought Lonwolf. BUT- Zappa was a hippie. And you CAN"T be punk and be a hippie.

Don't taze me, bro!!
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post #384 of 691 Old 03-22-2006, 10:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FredProgGH View Post

Wow, interesting thought Lonwolf. BUT- Zappa was a hippie. And you CAN"T be punk and be a hippie.


D.I and 45 Grave at the Brigg in Huntington Beach, California, April 1 2006. I'll be there, long hair and all.

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post #385 of 691 Old 03-22-2006, 10:44 PM
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[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by FredProgGH View Post

Wow, interesting thought Lonwolf. BUT- Zappa was a hippie. And you CAN"T be punk and be a hippie.

Zappa wasn't a hippie. He was one of The Other People. Common mistake. Now, pass the vegetables. (I can't stop)

"There is no truth. There's just what you believe."
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post #386 of 691 Old 03-22-2006, 11:17 PM
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yes, king crimson, genesis, elp, asia, no matter if they get the awards they changed the way i play music and opened my heartmind.
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post #387 of 691 Old 03-22-2006, 11:18 PM
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[quote=lonwolf615]
Quote:



I dunno. He didn't take drugs, was violently opposed to them as a matter of fact-thought LSD was a CIA experiment..maybe he was just strange and they had to lump him in with Somebody....

Actually, he would call himself a Freak, I suppose. He was there at the very beginning of the hippie scene, and saw the whole thing sell out with the whole "summer of love" deal. He was certainly embraced by the movement even if he wasn't strictly of it...

Don't taze me, bro!!
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post #388 of 691 Old 03-22-2006, 11:20 PM
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Oops, I edited my post Fred-sorry. You're right though. Kinda shows how silly the whole labeling thing is, doesn't it? Not as sillly as quoting Zappa in every post, however.



(wowie zowie)

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post #389 of 691 Old 03-22-2006, 11:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lonwolf615 View Post

Kinda shows how silly the whole labeling thing is, doesn't it? Not as sillly as quoting Zappa in every post, however.

True.


(Brown shoes don't make it...)

Don't taze me, bro!!
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post #390 of 691 Old 03-23-2006, 12:25 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by FredProgGH View Post

Well OK, so much for that

You see FredProgGH--there are 2 and maybe 3 self-anointed all knowing punk gurus who refuse to accept the fact that other people, including progressive rock loving former jocks who also happen to listen to punk might have something valid to say on the subject. No matter what, due to thier own self imposed stereotyping, they will refuse to acknowledge the possibility that others who may not fit their vague stereotypes might have valid points to make. So when that decision has been made from the outset, there is no amount of logic that will change their mind, so this is simply silly. The sad thing is, my thread was going fine and there was intelligent and fruitful exhanges until the self-anointed punk gurus came crashing in to give their "jerky" retorts, and changed this into a credibility contest (I'm more punk than you are, na na na na na naaaaaa).

I was going to bring up the very real and dangerous influx of neo-Nazism and violent white supremacy attitudes that some factions of the punk movement thrived on in the late 70's, which I personally witnessed by the way, as a contrast to the peace and love ideal of hippiedom from the 60's, but I think I'll wait for another time to discuss that given the present company.
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