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post #631 of 691 Old 04-12-2006, 10:21 AM
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[quote=JohnR_IN_LA]
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The fact is that both Classical and Jazz are ultimately failing to get new listeners, and theres a reason why Rock and other forms of music are capturing more young minds.

Is "rock" really doing that, though? Are there rock groups that inspire teenage listeners now the way the bands mentioned in this thread inspired us? I'm just asking because I don't know, maybe I'm totally out of the loop. But the biggest tours year after year are performers that have been around 20-30 years, or even longer. Its so weird seeing 16 year olds excited by the Paul Rodgers-Queen tour, or standing in line for Rush=Eagles tickets. When I was their age I had no interest in performers from even 10 years before-I wanted my own music. Are there new performers that capture the teenagers of today the way rock music used to inspire us? I'm curious.

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post #632 of 691 Old 04-12-2006, 11:41 AM
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A lot of the music I listen to is around 30 years old and then I find it funny to put myself back in 1970 and think about listening to music from 1940.....

larry

Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work. -- Thomas Alva Edison
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post #633 of 691 Old 04-12-2006, 12:31 PM
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Originally Posted by JohnR_IN_LA View Post

Well Classical is written on paper, which is not improv, and hurts classical both coming (writing) and going (playing). They simply can't come up with a composition like Rush's "Natural Science", because the mood and the groove cannot be easily written.

The fact is that both Classical and Jazz are ultimately failing to get new listeners, and theres a reason why Rock and other forms of music are capturing more young minds.

No offense, but what a load of crap.

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post #634 of 691 Old 04-12-2006, 04:34 PM
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Originally Posted by PooperScooper View Post

A lot of the music I listen to is around 30 years old and then I find it funny to put myself back in 1970 and think about listening to music from 1940.....

larry

Exactly.

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post #635 of 691 Old 04-13-2006, 09:56 AM
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Originally Posted by JohnR_IN_LA View Post

Well Classical is written on paper, which is not improv, and hurts classical both coming (writing) and going (playing). They simply can't come up with a composition like Rush's "Natural Science", because the mood and the groove cannot be easily written.

Oh, please. Notation is always a 'transcription' -- it is not the *thing itself*. And there's tons of notation for rock music too these days, some of it as minutely detailed as classical scores (check out all those symbols for fret-hand techniques in a Guitar World transcription). The 'groove' in 'classical' cannot easily be written either, which helps explain why different performances sound different. Rush music is baby stuff compositionally and technically compared to, say, a Bartok quartet (which can *groove* quite nicely too, when played right) -- or to , say, John Coltrane's 'Giant Steps' , which grooves rather hard. And of course jazz musicians tend to be able to read music too -- it doesn't seem to impede their ability to create
'mood' and 'groove', does it?


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The fact is that both Classical and Jazz are ultimately failing to get new listeners, and theres a reason why Rock and other forms of music are capturing more young minds.

Which has nothing to do with it being notated or not...and very much to do with education and marketing. And rock isn't particularly healthy in the marketplace either, comapred to what it used to be.
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post #636 of 691 Old 04-13-2006, 10:15 AM
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Surprised I let that one go-- yes, rock is pretty much dying as well, IMO. The fact that many kids are more interested in 70's bands than new bands points that out. Even hip-hop has had its day, I think. Electronica and ambient- basically loop based music is the next thing. It's not composed or written in a sense, it's made like a collage out of found elements.

Also, early classical had tons of improv in it- look at the "score" for the second movement of Bach's Third Brandenburg Concerto, for instance; he expected the entire piece to be improvised apart from the final two chord cadence. Continuo and cadenza parts were always improvised. The reason Natural Science has that groove is the presence of the drum backbeat which orchestras don't have; it's an arrangement thing.

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post #637 of 691 Old 04-13-2006, 05:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by krabapple View Post

Oh, please. Notation is always a 'transcription' -- it is not the *thing itself*. And there's tons of notation for rock music too these days, some of it as minutely detailed as classical scores (check out all those symbols for fret-hand techniques in a Guitar World transcription). The 'groove' in 'classical' cannot easily be written either, which helps explain why different performances sound different. Rush music is baby stuff compositionally and technically compared to, say, a Bartok quartet (which can *groove* quite nicely too, when played right) -- or to , say, John Coltrane's 'Giant Steps' , which grooves rather hard. And of course jazz musicians tend to be able to read music too -- it doesn't seem to impede their ability to create
'mood' and 'groove', does it?




Which has nothing to do with it being notated or not...and very much to do with education and marketing. And rock isn't particularly healthy in the marketplace either, comapred to what it used to be.

Right on. Right now I think, our society in general is in a more "dumbed down" (and ignorance is bliss) stage as far as the mainstream goes. They like the "safe" stuff, which can appeal to the widest possible audience. And, unfortunately, which fits in with what you say, our country is becoming filled with more and more uneducated people every day, which is naturally gonna have a huge effect on what's being released and played in mainstream areas. Plus, people naturally put down things they don't understand or are over their head. I'd like to say I'm awaiting a big backlash, but as things are, the music would probably get commercialized into total c**p in no time anyway, so I really don't know how much it will change, if ever. It's too special to let that happen, so I'm actually pretty comfortable with the way it is right now. There's been a lot of "pretenders" of types of music that have been thrust upon us, like Joss Stone, Christine Aguilera, Mariah Carey, Harry Connick jr., Diana Krall (I know, I know - I don't mind listening to or looking at her either), Kenny G, The Marsalis', that are all about "technique", and/or showing off what they can do with their voices or instruments more than they really seem to have the depth of really "getting" the music. Now I'm not saying they totally suck, but basically they're just people pretending to be great at these things, when there isn't a darn thing that's innovative or creative about them, and they all lack the real "soul" and "feel" that the true artists of those genres had, even though they've made the music more palpable and accessable to the general public (of course, they're not the only ones - look at all the so-so comedians these days who never pay any dues and are called "great" and "legends"). We've always had a certain amount of these (hyped-to-the-hilt-acts) in popular music, more or less so depending on the times. Like them or not, both The Beatles and Springsteen started out that way, but they had the stuff to actually become legendary in their own way. You can rarely (if ever), say that about anyone now. But they say that kids and teens are wanting to hear more of the music that there parents listened to these days, so I guess at least some of these performers serve to introduce them to the music somewhat. There must be something inside their heads that clicks when they actually hear the truer artists. I guess it helps if they have parents and teachers who can point this out to them (in a way that they'll actually listen). I think if we're gonna have white people attempting to sing soulfully and pulling it off more respectably, we need to find more people that actually "got" it, like Paul Rodgers, Bonnie Raitt, Robert Palmer, etc., and maybe even early Hall & Oates, to really help to get more (at least white) people into it. African-Americans, I think are even more accepting of this stuff than whites as a whole sometimes, as much rap seems to be a step backwards musically and culturally, (though some of it can be pretty creative at times), and most of the modern black (and white) soul singers sound as if they're having problems with constipation or going through labor more than actually singing sometimes. But as they were so instrumental in so much of our country's musical history in the past, there's no reason to think they can't contribute like that again. Jazz, blues, gospel, early rock & roll - someone mentioned Techno and Ambient - heck, where would even those types of music be without the pulsating beats that have their roots in African music (along with our Teutonic friends' great synth stylings)? Oh well. Enough rambling for now.
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post #638 of 691 Old 04-13-2006, 11:13 PM
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Hey, Ram, Ramble On...oops.
Thats a great post and I couldn't agree more. Country music would be another example of what you're talking about. In the early 90"s country radio had a huge rise in popularity, there were all kinds of million seller cd's and some country acts became huge stars even beyond their genre. But as the music became mainstream it lost track of where it came from. Now country radio is some strange mix of mainstream pop and performers that "sorta' sound like Haggard or Cash or Jones. The real stuff has been banished from the radio even as the stations talk about tradition. Its ironic isn't it? As any genre begins to reach higher heights of popularity it inevitably changes from what made it unique in the first place and starts sounding like everything else.
And yet there is stilll good music out there. And about 90% of it comes from Texas.

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post #639 of 691 Old 04-13-2006, 11:24 PM
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Originally Posted by lonwolf615 View Post

And yet there is stilll good music out there. And about 90% of it comes from Texas.

yeah, like what??

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post #640 of 691 Old 04-14-2006, 07:02 AM
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Quote:


Originally Posted by Rammitinski
...someone mentioned Techno and Ambient - heck, where would even those types of music be without the pulsating beats that have their roots in African music (along with our Teutonic friends' great synth stylings)?

I will rear my ugly head and just offer that while the popular view is European or German, Techno is another product of Detroit from the late 70's early 80's.

The Detroit Techno Festival is just a few weeks away. There's always a large number of European tourist attending. Some current information from the "Detroit News" here.
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post #641 of 691 Old 04-14-2006, 07:52 AM
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Originally Posted by FredProgGH View Post

yeah, like what??

You gotta know who he's referring to !
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post #642 of 691 Old 04-14-2006, 08:15 AM
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Originally Posted by FredProgGH
...Electronica and ambient- basically loop based music is the next thing. It's not composed or written in a sense, it's made like a collage out of found elements....

Makes me think of the "everything old is new again" statement.

Check out the band "Silver Apples" here. Click on the song "Oscillations" sound bite, circa 1967-68. These guys have been around for almost 40 years and still going. And then there's Brian Eno.
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post #643 of 691 Old 04-14-2006, 08:16 AM
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Originally Posted by krabapple View Post

Rush music is baby stuff compositionally and technically compared to, say, a Bartok quartet (which can *groove* quite nicely too, when played right) -- or to , say, John Coltrane's 'Giant Steps' , which grooves rather hard. And of course jazz musicians tend to be able to read music too -- it doesn't seem to impede their ability to create 'mood' and 'groove', does it?

Complexity does not equal good music, and unless its done with a purpose, complexity is often negative. This is true in all art forms, the best artists, writers, and screenwriters are usually the ones that present bold, clear ideas with their art. Clarity rules, Soupy drools

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Which has nothing to do with it being notated or not...and very much to do with education and marketing. And rock isn't particularly healthy in the marketplace either, compared to what it used to be.

Actually rock is doing quite well, the genre continues to rule concert sales. Album/Song sales are unspectacular but steady. Jazz and Classical sales are DEAD, they almost dont exist.

BTW I have tremendous respect for classcal and Jazz artists... but dont blame the listeners if they listen to something more human.
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post #644 of 691 Old 04-14-2006, 09:09 AM
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Originally Posted by b curry View Post

Makes me think of the "everything old is new again" statement.

Check out the band "Silver Apples" here. Click on the song "Oscillations" sound bite, circa 1967-68. These guys have been around for almost 40 years and still going. And then there's Brian Eno.

..and Can, and he rest of the Krautrockers, oh I know. But mostly Eno, I'd say. It's the use of computers to make sampling easy that's the key today. Those guys really had to do it the hard way!!

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post #645 of 691 Old 04-14-2006, 09:30 AM
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Originally Posted by JohnR_IN_LA View Post

You gotta know who he's referring to !

Hmm, this is gonna be good...enlighten me John...

By the way, your remarks about complexity not being an end in itself are right on. You stated concisely what a lot of us have been trying to say in this thread from the beginning.

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post #646 of 691 Old 04-14-2006, 09:39 AM
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The best thing I can think of from Texas is sadly no longer with us And really, though I tend to agree, complexity for complexity's sake CAN be quite entertaining- if you happen to enjoy that sort of thing. That's a completely subjective statement. Plus, who's to say what the motivation behind complexity is- most listeners would put any Coltrane solo into that category, but Trane fans don't...

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post #647 of 691 Old 04-14-2006, 12:17 PM
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I will rear my ugly head and just offer that while the popular view is European or German, Techno is another product of Detroit from the late 70's early 80's.

The Detroit Techno Festival is just a few weeks away. There's always a large number of European tourist attending. Some current information from the "Detroit News" here.

That's not something I was even aware of. The first thing I ever remember that was accessable and was like a big breakthrough type of album which seemed to combine synths into a dancable beat in the sort of "techno" way was probably "Trans-Europe Express" in '77. Are you referring to what sort of became Disco (being that a lot of soul artists were associated with that)? I know Eno, Dream, Fast and them were doing the ambient stuff before that, which was more "spacey" than dancable, and I certainly wouldn't consider "Autobahn" dancey (Although they had an album between the two mentioned that I can't remember which one it was offhand, and I don't know how dancable-like it was - "Radio Activity" maybe?), but I just don't recall a big Detroit connection. Who were some of the artists? Because in Chicago we had a great underground radio station that played the stuff, but the bands pretty much were known recording artists. Speaking of Kraftwerk, one of the funniest things I ever read (especially if you were really into them and their image), was in a small book about them years ago. I don't know if it's still available, but it was a really great and interesting book. Anyway, they were known for not wanting or liking to be photographed. When an interviewer asked one of them (I forget which one) why this was, he replied "Becuss vee are paranoid!".
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post #648 of 691 Old 04-14-2006, 03:51 PM
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Originally Posted by JohnR_IN_LA View Post

BTW I have tremendous respect for classcal and Jazz artists... but dont blame the listeners if they listen to something more human.

Without a doubt, this has got to be amongst the dumbest, if not the dumbest, post I've read at AVS. Classical and jazz music is less "human" than rock music.

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post #649 of 691 Old 04-14-2006, 06:26 PM
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Ron,

Since the time of the traveling bard, the common folk related to the guy who came to town, singing songs, sometimes playing an instrument, and telling stories. Thats human.

Meanwhile the nobility supported opera and classical, but there was nothing there the common folk could relate too. Sure opera told a story, in latin!

Guess what ... things havent changed that much. If you want to relate to the teaming masses, you gotta write a song about them.
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post #650 of 691 Old 04-14-2006, 06:47 PM
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Hmm, this is gonna be good...enlighten me John...

Hah you didnt have those 3 in mind?? I may have guessed wrong then....
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post #651 of 691 Old 04-14-2006, 07:47 PM
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Ron,

Since the time of the traveling bard, the common folk related to the guy who came to town, singing songs, sometimes playing an instrument, and telling stories. Thats human.

Well, if "human" is actually a synonym for "simple" or "stupid" I'll pass on being human.
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Meanwhile the nobility supported opera and classical, but there was nothing there the common folk could relate too. Sure opera told a story, in latin!

Actually, the common losers liked their opera too, although they were less stuffy about it. I refer you to The Magic Flute... (in German, BTW- who the heck ever wrote an opera in Latin? Anyway, don't forget, what we call "classical" music used to be just "music". It could be and was enjoyed by everyone. The main difference between it and folk music was, then as now, in who MADE it.
Quote:


Guess what ... things haven't changed that much. If you want to relate to the teaming masses, you gotta write a song about them.

True, which is why most orchestral music, at least from 100 years ago and more, is chock full of quotes of folk music melodies of the time.

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post #652 of 691 Old 04-14-2006, 07:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Rammitinski

That's not something I was even aware of....

...but I just don't recall a big Detroit connection. Who were some of the artists? Because in Chicago we had a great underground radio station that played the stuff, but the bands pretty much were known recording artists....

You know Michigan Avenue starts in downtown Detroit and ends on the north side of Chicago (Gold Cost) or vice versa. A very real link or connection between the two citys in more ways than one...

Techno is or has been credited to three guys, again from the Ann Arbor area, who were impressed with the Chicago/Lincoln Park club scene and the sounds of Black Detroit radio stations dance mixes. One of the guys, Derrick May, is quoted as having described Techno aka Detroit House Music as "George Clinton and Kraftwerk stuck in an elevator".

At the risk of "The rath of SquonK", I'll link you to a Wiki that gives a reasonable history and lists artists of the Techno genera here and here.

A good part of my work has me in Dusseldorf, Germany home of Kraftwerk. Techno is almost always a pub conversation that comes up when you say your from Detroit. The whole idea of Techno seems to be a natural fit with the German culture.

Edit: Rammitinski, here is an article titled Autobahn to I-94 Detroit Techno and Chicago House, or something like that; more than a Wiki any how.

A quote from the link: "Detroit had this more funky edge while Chicago was more disco. In Detroit you had Mojo [legendary Detroit radio DJ Electrifiyin' Mojo] on the radio who played Jimi Hendrix, the Gap Band, Parliament/Funkaldelic, and a lot of the European things, whereas folks in Chicago were more focused on disco. To me that stuff out of Detroit was very different from the Chicago sound. It's right more synthesizer-based whereas house music was more drum machine-based. You can hear that difference even right back to Cybotron."
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post #653 of 691 Old 04-14-2006, 10:17 PM
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Have you met Dieter, from "Schprockets" over there yet? I read that last "Autobahn" article and yeah, I suppose that all fits as far as what became most popular, especially in the clubs and all. But that seems to be dated from the early to mid '80's. I guess what I'm referring to is earlier on, before it became what was actually called "Techno". As I remember, Kraftwerk themselves didn't even officially join the "Techno" ranks until way later in the movement, after it was well established, with the release of "Electric Cafe". They actually put out a more commercially successful album with that then any of the others even had. It didn't surprise me at all, since they were doing it long before most. I remember being in a HiFi store when that was out and I was auditioning tape decks with a home recording of it. This black guy came up to me and was real excited, asking me who it was and where he could find it, because he had heard it somewhere and thought it was great. And from what it sounded like, he had many friends who were also trying to find out. So I wrote it down for him and he couldn't thank me enough (it was "Boing Boom Tshcak", if I remember right). I didn't check out the Wiki artist list links you gave yet, but I'll do that now. (It'll keep me from getting sucked into some of the other side discussions here, which seem to be on the verge of nastiness once again.)
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post #654 of 691 Old 04-14-2006, 10:55 PM
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Okay, I skimmed through them. Everything I said in the preceding post was right, as far as what I meant. The actual, popular genre of "Techno" is the club music from the mid 80's on. And, other than saying once that Kraftwerk was used with overlays later, they basically refer to them (and Giorgio Moroder) in '77 as being the earliest influences. I was confusing the earlier influencing stuff with what was actually termed "Techno" later. I wasn't aware so much about Detroit's contributions, but yeah, being from Chicago and having been in enough clubs back then and knowing as much as I did about the music scene here, I was aware of our importance in establishing "House Music". I'm not surprised one bit that Detroit added a lot of the "funk" to it all. You guys always were funkier. Here, the kind of people that would mostly be into that scene usually want it simpler and more straightforward. They just want to completely be able to zone out without anything in the music to distract them. I probably would've been into it more myself here if it had a bit more funk, as I'm not a dancer at all and I would've appreciated the musicality more. Now that I think of it, the only times I ever got on a dance floor at a wedding (other than a slow song) was when they would play The Gap Band. House music to me is only good for dancing - funk is - well - more musical. I've always loved it, starting from when I was young, with James Brown. And I really got into The Isley's funk period. In fact, it was such a big influence on me, that when I used to jam with other people in my younger days, much of what we made up was funk. I just wish there was more of it around these days (not only in club dance music).
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post #655 of 691 Old 04-14-2006, 11:20 PM
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John: If you mean the Chicks, I was impressed with their first two albums, and my wife likes them, but no, thats not who I mean. Fred, if you mean Townes Van Zandt, then yeah, I agree with you, but somehow I think you mean SRV...
Okay, a brief list: Townes, Guy Clark, Robert Earl Keen, Roy Hubbard, Joe Ely, Jack Ingram, Kelly Willis, Bruce and Charlie Robinson, Buddy Miller, Junior Brown, Steve Earle, Lyle Lovett, Cross Canadian Ragweed, Heather Myles...
Texas music is based on strong songwriting and live performance. It has elements of folk, rock, blues and hard core country in it. A lot of it is lumped into alt. country or americana, but its really its own genre.

"There is no truth. There's just what you believe."
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post #656 of 691 Old 04-15-2006, 12:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnR_IN_LA View Post

Ron,

Since the time of the traveling bard, the common folk related to the guy who came to town, singing songs, sometimes playing an instrument, and telling stories. Thats human.

Meanwhile the nobility supported opera and classical, but there was nothing there the common folk could relate too. Sure opera told a story, in latin!

Guess what ... things havent changed that much. If you want to relate to the teaming masses, you gotta write a song about them.

What the heck does any of this have to do with classical, jazz, rock (or for that matter any other genre of music) being "more" or "less" human? I'm sorry, but your synapses misfired on this one. All music is human, period. None is more or less human. Indeed, by its very nature music is human, unless we're including/expanding the definition of music to include sounds made by animals, fish, or nature, e.g., wind, thunder, etc.

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post #657 of 691 Old 04-15-2006, 07:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Rammitinski
The actual, popular genre of "Techno" is the club music from the mid 80's on....

Yes, exactly. It stared in the late 70's in Detroit. Techno now seems to retroactively include under its umbrella any electronic music with looped instruments: keyboard, synthesizer, drum machine, sequencer, sampler, etc.

What I find interesting is how bands like Kraftwerk and Tangerine Dream get lumped into the same box.

Kraftwerk and Tangerine Dream formed shortly after Pink Floyd. I remember the three being called Psychedelic. Of course Psychedelic is a label not used today. Psychedelic seemed to evolve into Progressive or Art Rock and Electronic. The trouble with labels... And Pink Floyd is a category by itself.

So If you come to the Detroit Techno Music Festival end of May, you will hear club and electronic music with influences of Jazz, Rock & Roll, Progressive, Funk, Motown, Soul, Blues, Ambient, Debussy, Alvin Toffler, etc... And some Dieter and the Sprocketts look-a-likes.

Preliminary 2006 Lineup - Detroit Techno Festival

Photek, leading Jungle DJ from the United Kingdom
Pascal F.E.O.S., pioneering techno DJ from Germany
Derrick Carter, Chicago house music DJ/producer
Rob Acid, German acid techno producer
Ark, minimal techno DJ and first-time visitor to Detroit
Josh Wink, globally recognized techno DJ/producer
Orb, legendary ambient producers
Greenskeeper, rapidly emerging house music band
Tortured Soul, rapidly emerging house music band
Alex Under, German minimal techno artist
Mark Broom, British techno DJ/producer
Pantytec, vastly popular German techno act
Planet of the Drums, America's most popular Jungle DJ/MC ensemble
Krikor, German minimal techno artist
Superpitcher, leading talent from Cologne's Kompakt label
Richie Hawtin, Detroit/Windsor/Berlin techno legend
Collabs: Speedy J/Chris Leibing, European hard techno duo
Dandy Jack, Perlon Records (Berlin) popular live act
Doc Martin, West Coast house music legend
Roy Davis Jr., globally known Chicago acid house pioneer
Markus Guenter, German ambient artist
Klimek, Kompakt Records down-tempo live act
Jay Haze, minimal techno artist
Socks and Sandals, making their Detroit debut
Adam Marshall, international techno DJ/Producer making his Detroit debut
Daniel Bell, Detroit minimal techno legend
Jeremy Caufield, German techno DJ/producer
Donald Glaude, West Coast DJ/producer
Function and Regis, New York hard techno duo
Neil Landstrumm, Veteran Techno producer from Scotland
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post #658 of 691 Old 04-15-2006, 10:12 AM
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Originally Posted by JohnR_IN_LA View Post

Guess what ... things havent changed that much. If you want to relate to the teaming masses, you gotta write a song about them.

The teeming masses can all name countless John Williams scores after the first couple of notes.

As for popular/radio music and the teeming masses, all you have to do is write a generic song in whatever copycat style is currently popular. The top of the charts are dominated by utter crap. The Black Eyed Peas recently played here, and filled Arco Arena with thousands of screaming fans...Meanwhile, Jackie Greene, a local favorite, is still playing small nightclubs and free shows in the park. Talent wise, Greene is head and shoulders above the overwhelming majority of what the teeming masses are listening to. I swear, if I hear one more Staind-like crap band (that spawns countless drunk-guy posturing at karaoke bars across the land), I'm going to puke.

Sorry, but yours is a losing argument any way you want to spin it...

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post #659 of 691 Old 04-16-2006, 04:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Ron Party View Post

What the heck does any of this have to do with classical, jazz, rock (or for that matter any other genre of music) being "more" or "less" human? I'm sorry, but your synapses misfired on this one. All music is human, period. None is more or less human. Indeed, by its very nature music is human, unless we're including/expanding the definition of music to include sounds made by animals, fish, or nature, e.g., wind, thunder, etc.
Ron Party

Does that include the CD I just ordered from the planet Meep-zorp?
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post #660 of 691 Old 04-16-2006, 04:19 PM
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I'm still trying to think of an opera that's in Latin.
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