Sex Pistols and Blondie in Rock Hall of Fame--Genesis and Yes are not - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 691 Old 03-15-2006, 03:37 PM
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One more comment to squonk re. Yes before I run out for a bit:
Then again, what would you expect from someone who already admitted (in what was meant to be a humorous way) that they thought The Ramones maybe used too many chords??
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post #92 of 691 Old 03-15-2006, 03:43 PM
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I just remembered a funny scene (in relation to this thread) from the movie "SLC Punk." The two main characters...two "punks" living in Salt Lake City and are like fish out of water...were D&D playing nerds when they were younger. There's a flashback to them sitting in one of their rooms, the D&D stuff strewn about the table, and Rush blaring from the stereo. One of them puts in a new cassette someone gave him...it was The Ramones...and they were changed forever.

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post #93 of 691 Old 03-15-2006, 04:19 PM
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On vh1 recently, They had a New Order biography with the guys there. They said the
synth thing came from the sound man\\producer. They said they usually only played for 30 minutes or so at a time. The sound guy started playing the synth stuff as filler until the band came out and played more.


We can only hope a decline of western civilization dvd is in the works.

Having grown up south of LA i can tell punk is alive and well.

Just saw social d a couple month ago
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post #94 of 691 Old 03-15-2006, 04:27 PM
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Just saw social d a couple month ago

One of the most underrated American rock 'n roll bands of all time.

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post #95 of 691 Old 03-15-2006, 04:46 PM
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After reading through the list of the box set, I was surprised that there wasn't anything by The Tubes in the selections. Oh... but The Tubes had talent... nevermind. Actually, I really don't know what classificatin The Tubes would be under.

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post #96 of 691 Old 03-15-2006, 05:36 PM
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Well, The Tubes wouldn't really be punk - musically - they were pretty definitely rock for the most part. Earlier on, live, they had too much of a stage show, also (again, for the most part) - but the "problem" therein is that a lot of their early stage shows were often with the intention of being offensive. Plus, they had the whole bondage thing going for them. So I can see where that might cross your mind, as they did at times display some punk sentiment. Or whatever...
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post #97 of 691 Old 03-15-2006, 05:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Gecko85 View Post

One of the most underrated American rock 'n roll bands of all time.

Until Mike Ness quit heroin, anyway
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post #98 of 691 Old 03-15-2006, 07:06 PM - Thread Starter
 
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One more comment to squonk re. Yes before I run out for a bit:
Then again, what would you expect from someone who already admitted (in what was meant to be a humorous way) that they thought The Ramones maybe used too many chords??

Hey, no problem. I fully understand that groups such as Yes can be very demanding at times, and it certainly is not something everyone can handle. Its not meant to appeal to the lowest common denominator, and I like art sometimes to stretch and reach and push boundaries.

What I have never really understood is why someone like me, who loves a lot of different genres of music, can like, understand and appreciate the back to basics approach of groups such as the Ramones, but also love groups like Yes, Renaissance, King Crimson and Genesis. Yet I have very rarely, if ever, encountered a true blue punk rocker who could also acknowledge, like and appreciate progressive rock. It never fails--I always end up debating this stuff with someone who absolutely disdains and abhors progressive rock like Yes, and usually the first word out of their mouth is pretentious. I am fascinated that it doesn't ever seem to work both ways. I think part of the problem is that it admittedly takes much more patience to stay with something like Close to the Edge vs a two and half minute 3 chord punk song.

With regard to the Who, if you had ever seen them live I think you'd probably reassess your opinion. There was simply no better live band in their formative and prime years. And I think if you're honest, you would have to admit that there were a whole lot of punk rockers in the 70's and 80's who weened themselves on Who albums growing up. I know Paul Weller for instance most definitely was.
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post #99 of 691 Old 03-15-2006, 07:09 PM
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I agree. I seldom seem to meet people who have my own breadth of appreciation of music. I guess I'm just a sonic slut.

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post #100 of 691 Old 03-15-2006, 07:24 PM
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Originally Posted by squonk View Post

... I think part of the problem is that it admittedly takes much more patience to stay with something like Close to the Edge vs a two and half minute 3 chord punk song....

Oh, I don't know about that, more than once I've had to remove "Brainwashed" by Flipper from the turntable (over Lurch's protestations) after about two or so hours.
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post #101 of 691 Old 03-15-2006, 07:31 PM
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Originally Posted by squonk View Post

Yet I have very rarely, if ever, encountered a true blue punk rocker who could also acknowledge, like and appreciate progressive rock.

There was an interview with Bono in the Chicago Tribune a couple of months ago. Bono wanted to "clear the air" with Greg Kot, music critic for the Trib, after GK panned U2's most recent album, panned their first show here on the current tour (not the one that was filmed), accused them of coasting with every album since Pop, and accused them of selling out w/re Vertigo and iPod commercials. Bono was talking about Vertigo and the iPod and he said (I'm going by memory here), "We have to work to get punk on television. The goal was always about getting punk on television ... We were doing television programs on our very first tour ... Television isn't the enemy, progressive rock was and is the enemy."

Ok, I looked the interview up and it's here. I got the quote sort of right; at least the jist is.
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post #102 of 691 Old 03-15-2006, 07:40 PM
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Progressive rock is just another type of music. Only someone who sees music as a zero sum game would think that another type of music is 'the enemy', but it's clearly not a zero sum game. Everyone can like multiple types of music.

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post #103 of 691 Old 03-15-2006, 07:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by squonk View Post

Yet I have very rarely, if ever, encountered a true blue punk rocker who could also acknowledge, like and appreciate progressive rock.

I was (am?) a true blue punk rocker...from back in the day. I also listened to Yes (a little bit...didn't hate them, didn't love them), but listened to TONS of Rush, and a decent amount of King Crimson. So, now you know at least one. (Oh, and despite what any other poser "true blue" punk rocker might say, KISS rocks! )

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post #104 of 691 Old 03-15-2006, 07:48 PM
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Hey, no problem. I fully understand that groups such as Yes can be very demanding at times,.

Yep, you do have to work at liking them. OK, maybe you didn't mean it that way

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and it certainly is not something everyone can handle. Its not meant to appeal to the lowest common denominator, and I like art sometimes to stretch and reach and push boundaries

Heh. You make me laugh.

Oh, and punk didn't (at least originally) push boundaries, but Yes did/does? Ok.

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What I have never really understood is why someone like me, who loves a lot of different genres of music, can like, understand and appreciate the back to basics approach of groups such as the Ramones, but also love groups like Yes, Renaissance, King Crimson and Genesis. Yet I have very rarely, if ever, encountered a true blue punk rocker who could also acknowledge, like and appreciate progressive rock. It never fails--I always end up debating this stuff with someone who absolutely disdains and abhors progressive rock like Yes, and usually the first word out of their mouth is pretentious.

Well, that might be telling you something. But seriously, that was a nice debate move there (really). I guess my reply would be that it's good of you to slum with us sometimes. Sorry not everyone likes what you do. Now if you were to come back and tell me that bands like The Germs and others sucked, I'd pretty much have to agree with you. But I like 'em - and frankly, that's partly why I do. But I guess you're a much better person than I am. I don't actually have a problem with you thinking that (if you do, as you seem to convey here), either.

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I am fascinated that it doesn't ever seem to work both ways. I think part of the problem is that it admittedly takes much more patience to stay with something like Close to the Edge vs a two and half minute 3 chord punk song.

Or it could just be that some people don't like Yes (and similar bands) and that just seems to annoy you? And yeah, I don't typically have a lot of patience with really long songs, but at the same time, can you sit through Flipper's Sex Bomb (it's pretty dang long - and feels even longer than it actually is) and *actually* enjoy it so much that ya just wanna play it again?

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With regard to the Who, if you had ever seen them live I think you'd probably reassess your opinion. There was simply no better live band in their formative and prime years.

Hmm. Not sure you read everything I wrote. I did mention that I have seen early live footage of them, and it was pretty darn good. I thought we were talking about recordings, and to that end, I stand by my statement that I think the My Generation import is the only thing worth listening to. Particularly *since* I have seen what they were apparently capable of. However, yes, I do think it probably would have been pretty good to actually see them early on based on the footage I have seen. Especially when they were playing smaller venues. However, I am only 40 years old.

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And I think if you're honest, you would have to admit that there were a whole lot of punk rockers in the 70's and 80's who weened themselves on Who albums growing up. I know Paul Weller for instance most definitely was.

Well that's great for them. I guess I miscommunicated - I was speaking for myself, not for all punks of all times. That would be pretty pretentious of me to do - heh.

--Proud member of the lowest common denominator.
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post #105 of 691 Old 03-15-2006, 07:52 PM
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GreySkies: Well now that you've brought U2 into it... Have you ever heard their really, really early demo stuff (if you can call it that - it was like it was recorded in a garage) - long before the first album? That stuff was insane. You'd never even know it was U2. A guy I knew years ago was really into U2 and had it on tape. I'd love to be able to find it.

That's a pretty great quote - here it is for those that don't follow the link: "Progressive rock was the enemy in 1976. And it still is. And it has many, many faces. This beast is lurking everywhere. It can describe itself as indie rock. It's the same [blanking] thing. It's misery. I have seen so many great minds struck down by it."
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post #106 of 691 Old 03-15-2006, 08:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Gecko85 View Post

I was (am?) a true blue punk rocker...from back in the day. I also listened to Yes (a little bit...didn't hate them, didn't love them), but listened to TONS of Rush, and a decent amount of King Crimson. So, now you know at least one. (Oh, and despite what any other poser "true blue" punk rocker might say, KISS rocks! )

KISS *does* rock! I don't care if that Lurch guys says otherwise.
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post #107 of 691 Old 03-15-2006, 08:05 PM
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Oh, I don't know about that, more than once I've had to remove "Brainwashed" by Flipper from the turntable (over Lurch's protestations) after about two or so hours.

No, see there was this... and then there was this... never mind, forget it, you wouldn't understand anyway.
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post #108 of 691 Old 03-15-2006, 09:30 PM
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I agree that the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame is a bit over rated and does things differently than what would be considered normal. For example: I was in complete disagreement with the fact that it was built in Cleveland. Cleveland?
No offense to you Clevelanders (Or is it Clevelandites?), Cleveland is a fine town.
But shouldn't the R&R HoF have been built in a city with "Music in its Blood".
If it was up to me Memphis would have been the best choice for a location given the fact that Rock and Roll was more or less born there.

As far as the Sex Pistols are concerned, I do agree they suck. That said however, they are almost singlehandedly responsible for an creating entire genre of music. Punk Rock. Therefore, IMHO, their induction into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame is warranted. I do agree that bands like Yes and Genesis are overdue for an induction of their own. I miss the progressive era.

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post #109 of 691 Old 03-15-2006, 09:38 PM
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Now c'mon Toasted - if you google Cleveland Bands the first thing you get back is: Wedding Bands in Cleveland OH - hmm, uh, guess ya got a point there

"As far as the Sex Pistols are concerned, I do agree they suck."

Yeah! Finally!

"That said however, they are almost singlehandedly responsible for an creating entire genre of music. Punk Rock."

Well... there were others involved before and at the same time. Although they were probably the most visible at the time.
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post #110 of 691 Old 03-15-2006, 09:55 PM
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I agree that the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame is a bit over rated and does things differently than what would be considered normal. For example: I was in complete disagreement with the fact that it was built in Cleveland. Cleveland?

No matter where it is, or how over rated it is, it's a cool place to visit. There is so much on display there, from bands/artists who've been inducted to bands/artists that haven't. It's a living time capsule.

The top floor is reserved for whatever special display they're having at the time. When I was there it was the John Lennon Exhibit. On display were some very cool items, including ripped pieces of brown postal wrap, napkins, and other assorted items that Lennon scribbled some of the earliest versions of his songs. Apparently, he'd scribble down lyrics whenever an idea hit him...no matter where he was or what he had available to write on. Very cool stuff. There were so many other cool things in that exhibit, and in the rest of the Hall, that it's very much worth the trip for music fans.

Here's a bit of trivia for you: the *only* artifacts in the entire HoF that are allowed to be photographed are some of Jerry Garcia's guitars. Garcia stipulated in his will that nobody can ever charge to let people view the items his estate donated. So, they're the only items in the lobby...not actually inside the Hall...and are the only items allowed to be photographed.

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post #111 of 691 Old 03-16-2006, 12:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Gecko85 View Post

No matter where it is, or how over rated it is, it's a cool place to visit. There is so much on display there, from bands/artists who've been inducted to bands/artists that haven't. It's a living time capsule.

The top floor is reserved for whatever special display they're having at the time. When I was there it was the John Lennon Exhibit. On display were some very cool items, including ripped pieces of brown postal wrap, napkins, and other assorted items that Lennon scribbled some of the earliest versions of his songs. Apparently, he'd scribble down lyrics whenever an idea hit him...no matter where he was or what he had available to write on. Very cool stuff. There were so many other cool things in that exhibit, and in the rest of the Hall, that it's very much worth the trip for music fans.

Here's a bit of trivia for you: the *only* artifacts in the entire HoF that are allowed to be photographed are some of Jerry Garcia's guitars. Garcia stipulated in his will that nobody can ever charge to let people view the items his estate donated. So, they're the only items in the lobby...not actually inside the Hall...and are the only items allowed to be photographed.

Again, no offense was meant toward Cleveland and its people and the next time I'm there I want to see the Hall of Fame. Who knows, maybe my opinion of it will change once I actually see it. As far as Rock and Roll memorabilia is concerned, a cool place to visit is the Hard Rock Hotel in Las Vegas.

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post #112 of 691 Old 03-16-2006, 05:52 AM
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GreySkies: Well now that you've brought U2 into it... Have you ever heard their really, really early demo stuff (if you can call it that - it was like it was recorded in a garage) - long before the first album? That stuff was insane. You'd never even know it was U2. A guy I knew years ago was really into U2 and had it on tape. I'd love to be able to find it.

I've never heard it, but if you happen to find it, PM me-- I'd love to hear it. I remember buying Boy after seeing them on some late night show (Snyder?) performing Stories for Boys.
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post #113 of 691 Old 03-16-2006, 05:55 AM
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Here's a bit of trivia for you: the *only* artifacts in the entire HoF that are allowed to be photographed are some of Jerry Garcia's guitars.

Would that be flash photography? Most museums disallow flash photography, but not photography in general.
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post #114 of 691 Old 03-16-2006, 09:11 AM
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As far as Rock and Roll memorabilia is concerned, a cool place to visit is the Hard Rock Hotel in Las Vegas.

Been there...and honestly it pales in comparison to the HoF. Besides, the BEST thing about the Hard Rock in Vegas is the pool.

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post #115 of 691 Old 03-16-2006, 09:13 AM
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Would that be flash photography? Most museums disallow flash photography, but not photography in general.

I imagine that's correct. I was there in 2001, so my memory of whether it's all photography or flash photography is a bit murky. Still, it would be virtually impossible to get a shot inside without a flash...unless you used a tripod and a cable-release. It's very dark inside, with only the insides of most display cases lit...and not even that much.

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post #116 of 691 Old 03-16-2006, 10:23 AM - Thread Starter
 
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GreySkies: Well now that you've brought U2 into it... Have you ever heard their really, really early demo stuff (if you can call it that - it was like it was recorded in a garage) - long before the first album? That stuff was insane. You'd never even know it was U2. A guy I knew years ago was really into U2 and had it on tape. I'd love to be able to find it.

That's a pretty great quote - here it is for those that don't follow the link: "Progressive rock was the enemy in 1976. And it still is. And it has many, many faces. This beast is lurking everywhere. It can describe itself as indie rock. It's the same [blanking] thing. It's misery. I have seen so many great minds struck down by it."

That's interesting, because I am a big U2 fan as well as a prog rock fan. Go figure. And many people who hate U2 are quick to throw that word out--pretentious. I don't know what Bono has against prog rock, especially since its all underground now, but I would be interested to hear the punk rockers' take on Bono viewing U2 as a "punk" band still.
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Well, that might be telling you something. But seriously, that was a nice debate move there (really). I guess my reply would be that it's good of you to slum with us sometimes. Sorry not everyone likes what you do. Now if you were to come back and tell me that bands like The Germs and others sucked, I'd pretty much have to agree with you. But I like 'em - and frankly, that's partly why I do. But I guess you're a much better person than I am. I don't actually have a problem with you thinking that (if you do, as you seem to convey here), either.


I think you missed my point. Has nothing to do with who is a better person or not. I simply find that almost without exception, people who like progressive rock are far more open and appreciative of various forms of music than people who tend to focus on punk rock. That has been my experience. I have many punk rock and post punk albums in my collection--how many Yes and Genesis cds do you own? I thought so. In general, since punk was to a large degree about attitude, the pro-punk music press set about to create this kind of allie-enemy thing, and by and large prog rock became the enemy, even though the real enemy was schlocky AOR slicked up stuff like Journey, Little River Band, Starship etc who dominated the radio playlists of the mid to late 70's. With a few notable exceptions like Roundabout by Yes, most prog rock groups were just as absent from regular radio playlists as punk was. But a lot of youngsters, including you apparantly, bought into this "all prog rock is abhorrent and pretentious" mindset that the pro-punk music press foisted upon you. And a lot of it is just simply a product of when you grew up and what you were exposed to--I know many a younger brother who absolutely hate their big brothers prog rock because that is what he listened to.

I have this same kind of debate with my dad about art, and he's over 70. He for the life of him can't see the value in any art which is not an exact realistic depiction of reality. He would say of Van Gogh--why is he painting the sky all swirly and wavy like that--it looks like a kid did that---that's no good. That Jackson Pollock--what a load of pretentious garbage. Can't he paint something realistic and simple? Etc. No matter how I try to convince him that there is more to art than just painting a straightforward realistic picture of something, he won't acknowledge the value of stuff that may be a bit more demanding and stretches art in a different way. So too with a lot of progressive rock. Its perfectly fine to like straightforward 3 chord simple rock--I like a lot of it myself. But there are those of us who appreciate when the human mind goes beyond that and seeks to create art that may be a little more demanding and challenging. That doesn't mean its pretentious--it just means that after a while, the nice little realistic paintings of the apples in a bowl on the side of the road are not enough, and some of us seek to explore maybe more abstract expressions of art and music.
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post #118 of 691 Old 03-16-2006, 12:00 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by ToastedAudiolab View Post


As far as the Sex Pistols are concerned, I do agree they suck. That said however, they are almost singlehandedly responsible for an creating entire genre of music. Punk Rock. Therefore, IMHO, their induction into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame is warranted.


Wrong, as Gecko and others have pointed out (your second sentence--the first sentence I agree with). There were many bands that preceded them that were doing it better and earlier. This is exactly why inducting these clowns in the Hall of Fame is so ludicrous--it validates these mistaken perceptions of the Sex Pistols as these great revolutionary pioneers of music when all they were was a marketing gimmick to sell clothes and spout off some anti-establishment rebellion. They are a sham, a scam, talentless charlatans that had one big song. Take a look at their interview on that Tom Snyder DVD. Talk about pompous and pretentious, you can't get any more so than Johnny Rotten, and the biggest joke is that he had no talent to back it up and he later contradicted everything he was supposedly about anyway by reuniting and making money after he vowed he'd never play rock music again. Its one thing to be pompous because you are arguably the greatest keyboard player on earth, and you have the chops to back it up (Rick Wakeman). Its yet another to be pompous and pretentious when you are a talentless twit and hack who couldn't write 3 coherent notes of music even if you spotted him the middle C(Johnny Rotten et al).
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post #119 of 691 Old 03-16-2006, 12:44 PM
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skonk, I usually love your posts, but I have to say you're being very patonizing towards lurch in this one. For one thing, you say you like punk as well as prog. and that it never goes the other way around. Then you call the SP clowns,,,I don't remember lurch calling Yes names. You also imply it takes more intelligence to appreaciate Yes, and seemed shocked that those who like punk would disagree. No offense-I tend to agree with your opinion of punk, though I have to admit it never grabbed me enough to want to listen to enough of it to form a real opinion. But I don't feel that automatically gives me better ttaste than lurch. Like I said before, lurch states why he likes punk in such a way that I can understand it without agreeing with him. And going by his explaination I would assume its almost a given for a punk fan to reject all prog. music-it just doesn't speak to what they want to hear. I agree they are missing a lot of great music by doing that, but its their choice.
Dean, I like your left brain-right brain idea. Would you agree that the best music speaks to both halves at the same time though? In the Court of the Crimson King would be an example of an album thatt does that for me. Pink Floyd or Dylan at their best also qualify for me. Both primal and thought provoking..

"There is no truth. There's just what you believe."
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post #120 of 691 Old 03-16-2006, 01:04 PM
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Originally Posted by lonwolf615 View Post

Would you agree that the best music speaks to both halves at the same time though?

I know I would-- and for me, it's called John Coltrane. I think punk speaks more to the stomach.
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