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post #91 of 213 Old 03-06-2007, 07:46 PM
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Ok.
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The problem I have with the idea of Jackman creating the clone beforehand is that you then have to convince that clone to sacrifice his life. You can't trick him. He knows everything the original knows. He knows he's going into the tank. I can't believe Jackman's copy is so devoted to his craft that he would willingly do that, especially no doubt believing he is as deserving of the moment of Prestige as the original. I got the definite impression the clone was created during the trick. One goes to the balcony. One little piggy stays home. the survivor doesn't know if he is the original or the copy; it doesn't matter though because in seconds he is the only one and the distinction is moot. And at what point would the clone be created beforehand? If it is done before the performance the subterfuge can be discovered- far better to do it during the trick. Also, the Tesla machine is shown to have teleportation properties. Finally, I still don't think Jackman has the stomach for that sort of premeditated murder. Killing the clone more or less at the moment of its "conception" would be an easier way out for him.

I HAVE to see this again now that I have all these points to look for in my head!

Don't taze me, bro!!
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post #92 of 213 Old 03-07-2007, 05:20 AM
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I think duplicate better describes what occurs, not cloning. Jackman has to have experimented with the machine on more than one occasion before going in front of a large audience to be sure it was capable of duplicating a human. I can't believe he would have taken the hats and the cat as the only proof that the machine duplicates, and then risk his career by trying it with a human for the first time on stage. Too many things to be worked out to assure the act went accordingly.

Knowing failures can happen, would Jackman risk his own life night after night knowing when the trap door opens it means drowning? The duplicating never occurs on stage because the trap door opens before it can take place. The water tank is placed under the machine after the performance has started, thus the duplicate isn't aware of his impending doom. Why would the original Jackman show shock and panic when he fell into the tank? A duplicate doesn't mean mental telepathy, so Jackman could arrange anything he wanted without the duplicate being aware (see below). The Prestige is the most important thing for Jackman - it is what he lived for. Don't forget; killing Bale was premeditated, even if it was his twin.


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Jackman's speech in the final scene about knowingly
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climbing into the box every night.

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Was he being honest when he said this or was he deceiving Bale?


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The
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clones apparently retained all memories that the originals had.


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We don't know what the duplicate retains. Does his memory start at the point of duplication or does it retain everything? Like a lot of movies everything isn't definitive, it is left up to the viewer to unravel what he has seen and make the call as he sees fit. We've seen enough movies to know plausibility isn't the highest criteria when making a film. Until I watch this again I'm not sure I can say anything definitive. But at this point I'm going with what I've written.
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post #93 of 213 Old 03-07-2007, 07:15 AM
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Great movie, I have to watch it again.
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post #94 of 213 Old 03-07-2007, 07:15 AM
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Remember:

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The duplicate/clone/whatever had a particularly SURPRISED look on his face when he landed in the tank. Why would he look surprised if he knew it was coming?

Also, it's a huge plot point that Jackman was concerned about "killing doves" early in his career. This has to have meaning, and the only meaning that can be explained is that he was driven to actually kill another human being as part of his act.

Jackman was all about "The Prestige." Why, considering what we know of his selfish and obsessed nature would drive him to give "The Prestige" to, in effect, someone else? Nothing, as far as I'm concerned. He would rather enjoy the glory all himself.

I also agree with the "he tried it out before the act" point that was brought above by Aliens. Of COURSE, he tried it out, thereby creating a duplicate/clone. At that point, he thought, "hmmm, what to do with this clone?" What to do indeed.
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post #95 of 213 Old 03-07-2007, 07:22 AM
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Btw, watching this movie on the same weekend as "The Departed" brought about some interesting comparisons between the two, particularly involving the two protagonists, Bale/Jackman and Damon/Dicaprio.

My impression was:
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There was seperation between good and evil between the two (i.e. Bale/Dicaprio=good, Jackman/Damon=evil). Obviously not ALL evil nor ALL good with either (they all did some good and some evil) but it boiled down to that with each for me. Damon was evil and self-serving and even shown as somewhat "disfunctional" (the post-bedroom scene) while Jackman is shown as descending to evil based on his obsession with getting "even" with Bale after the death of his wife. Just like Damon, his ambition caused him to commit evil deeds in the course of the story; whereas Bale, like Dicaprio, was shown in the end as having followed a more righteous path.
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post #96 of 213 Old 03-07-2007, 07:44 AM
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I forgot to mention the most important thing...

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Having the audience believe he is teleporting every night IS the illusion.
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post #97 of 213 Old 03-07-2007, 11:41 AM
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As Jackman is dying, there's a mini-recap showing his first duplication and and his shooting of the clone


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My take is that it's always the performing Danton going into the box. The look of shock is that he hasn't transported. The dup gets the prestige, but isn't sure if he's the original or not...he's exactly the same with the same memories...also he's not a totally happy camper, cuz he's gonna drown tomorrow night. It's a total commitment/sacrifice to the trick/art and his plan of revenge. Once he get's Bordon, he plans on destroying the machine.

I don't lurk as much as I used to and I NEVER listen. Comes from being old and cynical.

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post #98 of 213 Old 03-07-2007, 12:01 PM
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Quote:
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My take is that it's always the performing Danton going into the box. The look of shock is that he hasn't transported.

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No object in the machine is ever transported. Only a duplicate of the object in the machine is transported. Don't forget; the hats all remained in the machine after the experiments. Same for the cat. When Jackman left the lab was when he noticed the pile of hats and the extra cat and realized what was happening.
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post #99 of 213 Old 03-07-2007, 12:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aliens View Post

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No object in the machine is ever transported. Only a duplicate of the object in the machine is transported. Don't forget; the hats all remained in the machine after the experiments. Same for the cat. When Jackman left the lab was when he noticed the pile of hats and the extra cat and realized what was happening.

Exactly.

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I still don't understand the look of shock on his face if he knew what was going to happen going in. It's only explained if:

1- It's not a look of surprise/shock and we all misread it.

2-The look of shock is because he was a dupe/clone and didn't know he would fall into a water-trap (I agree with this).

3-The look of shock/surprise is for another reason - perhaps shock at seeing Bale/Bordon next to the watertrap (this is a weak explanation IMO - mostly because it doesn't jive with the accompanying explanation that Danton was "setting up" Bale/Bordon).
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post #100 of 213 Old 03-07-2007, 12:22 PM
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One other thing about good and evil"

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The twins Bale plays seem to also be different. One is obssesed by magic as much as Jackman's character, and willing to do anything to maintain the illusion. The other shares the desire to be the best but his primary motivation is his wife and family. Hence how Bale alternates between warm and loving and cold and calculating. It appears at the end the "good" Bale survives. To him magic is important, its just not the only thing he lives for.

"There is no truth. There's just what you believe."
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post #101 of 213 Old 03-07-2007, 03:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aliens View Post

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No object in the machine is ever transported. Only a duplicate of the object in the machine is transported. Don't forget; the hats all remained in the machine after the experiments. Same for the cat. When Jackman left the lab was when he noticed the pile of hats and the extra cat and realized what was happening.

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Actually, you really can't prove that no object is transported. The object is duplicated completely, and suddenly exists in two places at the same time. The 2nd, "remote" object is very possibly the original, and the one remaining in the machine (and falling through the trap door) the copy . . . the requirement being that the original must be removed to make room for the copy. The real question is, who's stream of consciousness continues to flow?

This gets freakier and freakier the more I think about it
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post #102 of 213 Old 03-07-2007, 04:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdrumm View Post

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Actually, you really can't prove that no object is transported. The object is duplicated completely, and suddenly exists in two places at the same time. The 2nd, "remote" object is very possibly the original, and the one remaining in the machine (and falling through the trap door) the copy . . . the requirement being that the original must be removed to make room for the copy. The real question is, who's stream of consciousness continues to flow?

This gets freakier and freakier the more I think about it

That also supports the way I remember Jackman talking about it. Seems there's chaos theory at work here! Time for the obligatory I need to see it again interjection

BTW
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If you dropped into a tank of water and drowned you'd look surprised. Even if you knew it was coming.

Don't taze me, bro!!
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post #103 of 213 Old 03-07-2007, 05:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdrumm View Post

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Actually, you really can't prove that no object is transported. The object is duplicated completely, and suddenly exists in two places at the same time. The 2nd, "remote" object is very possibly the original, and the one remaining in the machine (and falling through the trap door) the copy . . . the requirement being that the original must be removed to make room for the copy. The real question is, who's stream of consciousness continues to flow?

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If an object were transported it would leave nothing behind. The duplication process is the result of the experiment *failing*. By that I mean it was intended to transport, yet it didn't. The *failed* result was it duplicated instead of transporting. All this did was change the way the act was to be performed. Saying the duplicate is somehow magically reproduced in front of our eyes is a bit of a stretch considering our knowledge of the process we use every day. If we take this so far out of the realm of what we know, then anything is possible, which leads me back to what I said earlier: It's that kind of movie,' so there may well be no correct answer/solution to all of the questions being asked.


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BTW
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If you dropped into a tank of water and drowned you'd look surprised. Even if you knew it was coming.

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Especially if some practical joker put ice cubes in it beforehand.
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post #104 of 213 Old 03-07-2007, 05:47 PM
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Whether the duplicate is created at a distant point or in the box and then moved to a distant point is beside the point (if you follow me ) The important thing is there are two people at the end of the process- one stays in the box, the other winds up some distance away. The exact process by which it happens isn't important. But even if it's semantically incorrect to call it such if you have a person, then create an identical person somewhere else, then destroy the original so only the one that is somewhere else remains, and that other one is identical to the original to the degree that he can consider himself to be the original- the upshot is the same as teleporting.

Don't taze me, bro!!
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post #105 of 213 Old 03-07-2007, 05:51 PM
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1) it must be duplicate at the location. If the machine transported then why wouyld recreate at the original location.

2) I don't think many of the theories make sense me guess he either
-- a) cloned himself (once or before each show) and the clone did the last bit of the act while he got ready for the prestige at the other end
-- b) he used the machine and he fell down and the pit but the clone got the prestige
my guess is a, just because he did not like that the other guy got the applause. If it is a) then he could kill the clones by drowning during the show but if B then he kills the original (obviously after each show the previous original is dead)

3) my guess the last show was not normal. There were others around and saw the drowning. My guess either he saw the guy during the show and set the guy up (moved the tank) and the clone did not know about it. Or Bale did try and kill him ( he moved the tank)
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post #106 of 213 Old 03-07-2007, 06:30 PM
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[quote=FredProgGH]
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Originally Posted by FredProgGH View Post

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But even if it's semantically incorrect to call it such if you have a person, then create an identical person somewhere else, then destroy the original so only the one that is somewhere else remains, and that other one is identical to the original to the degree that he can consider himself to be the original- the upshot is the same as teleporting.

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Who says the original is the one being destroyed? To me, the assumption is the one in the machine is the original.
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post #107 of 213 Old 03-07-2007, 06:45 PM
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Doesn't matter. When a cell divides, where is the original?? Is it both the new cells? Neither?? Who cares?? Jackman becomes two. One goes one place, one goes another. They are identical and interchangeable. Each has as much right to say it is original- and at the same time, neither does.

Don't taze me, bro!!
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post #108 of 213 Old 03-07-2007, 07:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FredProgGH View Post

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Doesn't matter. When a cell divides, where is the original?? Is it both the new cells? Neither?? Who cares?? Jackman becomes two. One goes one place, one goes another. They are identical and interchangeable. Each has as much right to say it is original- and at the same time, neither does.

Exactly.

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There is no way to prove which is the original. And without a way, there's no point arguing about it


And I think it's worthwhile to note that

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The survivor of each illusion obviously has no memory of the inside of the box. His memories consist of many successful "teleportations" and finding, afterward, just as many bottled corpses that look remarkably like him. As far as he's concerned, he'll survive every future trick, because he remembers surviving every one in the past. He could very well be operating under the "illusion" that his future will never fork into a dead end!
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post #109 of 213 Old 03-07-2007, 08:02 PM
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Dang, of course, that's it!!

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Each survivor has, by definition, only the memories of surviving and believes that he will always be the one to survive as the original (from his point of view). Performing the trick he never thinks he will wind up in the tank. He believes the "other" will die. Of course, after duplication one copy is right- and the other finds he is very wrong. Hence the shock. That is why he does the trick, thinking it is a copy that will die, not comprehending that for all intents and purposes he, the (current) original, will cease to exist, replaced by two new entities, each of which will take a different path.

It makes sense now.

Don't taze me, bro!!
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post #110 of 213 Old 03-07-2007, 08:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FredProgGH View Post

Dang, of course, that's it!!
It makes sense now.

The only thing I can't reconcile is
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That he must've had the memory of the first attempt using himself, where the instance of himself still in the machine shot and killed the remote instance. The survivor of that first use would have to assume that his point of view in a subsequent use of the machine would remain right there, in the machine . . . and thus wind up pickled.


I think I need to ponder this a bit more . . .
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post #111 of 213 Old 03-07-2007, 09:27 PM
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Well, OK, back to the original theory- IIRC he worries in his speech about not knowing if he'll be the one in the box or not. What he doesn't realize (or does he...) is that "he" doesn't wind up being either of the new duplicates. And after one is killed, only the survivor is around to ask the question.

Don't taze me, bro!!
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post #112 of 213 Old 03-07-2007, 09:47 PM
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The decision to destoy one's duplicate is a thorny issue. As stated, one can only guess the metaphysical identity issue, but one does know that he effectively is commiting suicide each performance...whichever way it turns out. That's the sacrifice. I think you guys are splitting hairs. Wolverine knows he's going to live and die each night until his mission is accomplished. Along the way, he accepts the accolades and agony as the price.

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post #113 of 213 Old 03-07-2007, 10:36 PM
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I agree with that. of course the irony is that
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the one who accepts the accolades never has to face the agony! Either way he is still facing the terror of the unknown every night- clearly HE doesn't really have much more of a handle on what happens during the procedure than we do

Don't taze me, bro!!
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post #114 of 213 Old 03-08-2007, 12:01 AM
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Quote:
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I agree with that. of course the irony is that
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the one who accepts the accolades never has to face the agony! Either way he is still facing the terror of the unknown every night- clearly HE doesn't really have much more of a handle on what happens during the procedure than we do

Yup

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post #115 of 213 Old 03-08-2007, 07:39 AM
 
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Well, we're getting somewhere farther still, yet no attempts to relate the Edison/Tesla or knot subplots.
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post #116 of 213 Old 03-08-2007, 08:10 AM
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Well, I've now watched the entire movie 2 times and watched multiple scenes many times and I'm still convinced that this is a poor job of storytelling by a director who really had no idea where he was going.

Bob
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post #117 of 213 Old 03-08-2007, 08:29 AM
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Quote:
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Well, I've now watched the entire movie 2 times and watched multiple scenes many times and I'm still convinced that this is a poor job of storytelling by a director who really had no idea where he was going.

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Originally Posted by Aliens View Post

...which leads me back to what I said earlier: It's that kind of movie,' so there may well be no correct answer/solution to all of the questions being asked.

I'm certain of one thing - no one is certain.
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post #118 of 213 Old 03-08-2007, 05:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spyder696969 View Post

Well, we're getting somewhere farther still, yet no attempts to relate the Edison/Tesla or knot subplots.

Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
Spoiler  
Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
I think Tesla is a clone of Edison...
No, weren't they just fiercely competitive just like Bale and Jackman?

I'm trying to stay anonymous on the Internet. Posting on this site isn't helping...
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post #119 of 213 Old 03-08-2007, 06:00 PM
 
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Getting close, flop!
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post #120 of 213 Old 03-09-2007, 04:01 PM
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I've watched 30 minutes of this movie each evening for 2 nites... i cant even read the thread yet.

I'm having a little trouble .... the whole Magic thing just hasn't captured my imagination yet.

Also, all the characters seem just a bit off ... I have never known anyone like any these people! The mysterious engineers, the magicians, even the pretty wife ... seems like aliens from another planet, as far as their emotional makeup.
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