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post #451 of 545 Old 04-21-2007, 09:00 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Josh Z View Post

...This doesn't need to turn into a religious debate, but you do need to be open to the possibility that the story may have religious themes and implications.

I think that's a major part of why some didn't enjoy the film. To me, far too much was based on faith alone and the religious undertones came off as, for lack of a better word, "preachy". It's much like seeing Mary's face in a tree stump. Some will rush down to view, kneel, pray, and cry out that it's a miracle that could only be created by the hands of their chosen deity. Others will write it off entirely, stating they don't see it at all, since they don't believe in that sort of thing, and those that do are nut jobs. Still others, like myself, realize that nature will create a Mary-shaped face in a tree once every 1.247 X 1053 cellular permutations. That is not to say that it isn't in some way miraculous, but the very fact that an astonomical number of known and random, yet linked, conditions have been met that allow complex organisms (like all trees, not just Mary-faced ones) to even exist on this planet is the miracle in and of itself, perhaps despite faith, not soley because of it.
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post #452 of 545 Old 04-21-2007, 10:33 AM
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methinks you can't see the forest for the trees.

"There is no truth. There's just what you believe."
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post #453 of 545 Old 04-21-2007, 11:59 AM
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Every futuristic or science fiction or fantasy film - in fact almost every film - lays out a framework of reality which may be at odds with what we see in our daily lives, and in order to enjoy and appreciate that movie, you have to accept those initial parameters, even if they appear unrealistic. If you are unable to do this, your entertainment palette is going to be severely restricted. You'd be unable to enjoy Star Wars and other science fiction films, all animation, Lord of the Rings and other fantasies, Citizen Kane, The Wizard of Oz, and so many others. I think we all are used to doing this; it is part of the bargain we have with the moviemaker, and our objections ordinarily come when the storyteller throws something new and unbelievable into the mix as a plot device. But the original premise can be pretty far out and we play along.

Children of Men's premise is that the human race has gone sterile. As a result, everybody has lost hope for the future, consequences don't seem to matter, government has broken down, and anarchy rules. The world is going through the motions and waiting for our species to go extinct.

Such an actual eventuality is unlikely, of course. Some sort of viral infection that affects every person on Earth could conceivably do it, I suppose, or some new chemical in the air. I saw no religious message in the film, but if you want to think of it that way, more power. Shouldn't much matter. As a film viewer, you are supposed to accept the intial premise, as long as it isn't too ridiculous, and this one strikes me as fascinating and well worth the effort. Once you've done that, almost everything in the movie rings pretty true to me.

Spyder had the objection that cloning people would be an easy solution. I might point out that no one has cloned a human being, far as we know. Since other mammals have been successfully cloned, so we presume that it would work with humans, but we don't know that for sure. Bad science to assume from extrapolation. Good chance that any cloned human might be sterile as well, in which case you'd have to envision cloning factories to populate the world into the distant future, and who knows whether successive clonings would eventually fail. Maybe the human project was working on that. And Spyder's idea that people would be scrambling for govenment grants for cloning and other research - well, in the film govenments had broken down and only England still hadn't degenerated into complete anarchy. The idea that there would be an easy fix for universal sterility is nuts.

But that's all beside the point. The initial premise is a great one, in my opinion, and should appeal to anyone with imagination and a love of speculation. Most movies - even good ones - usually have some plot twists that come out of left field and are hard to accept. Didn't see much of that here at all. So any objections on the basis of unbelievability probably comes from just not liking the film and trying to figure out why he or she didn't. For me, one of the best and most moving films in years.
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post #454 of 545 Old 04-21-2007, 12:55 PM
 
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It wasn't just the believability factor that caused many people, including myself, to feel disconnected from the film. There have been many others that stated that they didn't associate with the characters in any way, shape, or form. I have clearly listed my possible reasons for such reactions in previous posts.

cwilson, you've got ALOT to learn about cloning. The depths of your ignorance on the subject are so overwhelming, I wouldn't even know where to begin to enlighten you. This is not a personal attack upon your opinion, however, as you are not alone in your limited perceptions in this area, given that the general public has bought into what the mass media has told them on the matter, of which, 90% is absolute horses#!t. I'm also fairly certain that I would know as little about your profession as you know of mine.

What I want to know from all those that saw this as the Holy Grail of films is; Upon what basis do you place this idolization? What hope do you have for humanity in relation to the movie, besides believing in a "miraculous" conception and/or fortuitous events? What hidden depths did you see in the characters that were not so obvious to the rest of us? Did you find anything, anything at all, even the slightest, most minute of things, that you didn't adore with every ounce of your being?
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post #455 of 545 Old 04-21-2007, 01:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spyder696969 View Post

cwilson, you've got ALOT to learn about cloning. The depths of your ignorance on the subject are so overwhelming, I wouldn't even know where to begin to enlighten you. This is not a personal attack upon your opinion, however, as you are not alone in your limited perceptions in this area, given that the general public has bought into what the mass media has told them on the matter, of which, 90% is absolute horses#!t. I'm also fairly certain that I would know as little about your profession as you know of mine.

What was incorrect with cwilson's statement on cloning? He simply stated that no human being has successfully been cloned but that other mammals have. Entirely correct. Since some of these animals have also been sterile, he then concludes that such a possibility could occur with a cloned human as well. Again, perfectly reasonable assumption. Yet you're attacking him for his "ignorance" on the subject? WTF?
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post #456 of 545 Old 04-21-2007, 01:52 PM
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Spyder:

Humor my ignorance. Are you saying that there have been cloned human babies? If so, it's been kept from the media. There may well have been cloned human embryos which have been harvested for their stem cells at a very early stage of development for implantation back into the donor for therapeutic purposes - illegal here but not everywhere - but even if so, that's a very different matter from getting a fetus to term. The point is that for you to boldly say that cloning would automatically solve the worldwide infertility postulated in the movie - well, that's not intelligent. You're better than that.

As to what I didn't adore about the movie, a couple of things. I didn't think the acting of the pregnant girl was as good as the rest, and it does seem that publicizing the birth of a baby could have been accomplished somehow and would have resulted in her protection - but maybe it wouldn't have been all that easy after all. Otherwise, acting magnificent. Writing, wonderful and thought provoking. Directing and cinematography, brilliant. Most of all, it set an incredible mood and maintained it throughout. For me.
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post #457 of 545 Old 04-21-2007, 03:17 PM
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W/o specific examples for each of these points, the exact same could be said of Aeon Flux. Most certainly a lot of people would disagree, but again, you can claim anything if you aren't going to provide supporting examples. I think that is what Spyder was asking- specific examples.

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post #458 of 545 Old 04-21-2007, 03:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Mr. Hanky View Post

I think that is what Spyder was asking- specific examples.

Specific examples????
Wha?????

Dude, this is the Internet....where everyone can say anything, without regard to proof, facts, logic, etc....

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post #459 of 545 Old 04-21-2007, 04:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Mr. Hanky View Post

W/o specific examples for each of these points, the exact same could be said of Aeon Flux. Most certainly a lot of people would disagree, but again, you can claim anything if you aren't going to provide supporting examples. I think that is what Spyder was asking- specific examples.

Specific examples of what? In frame #2,354,116,484 there's a glint of light in the lower left-hand corner that is exceptionally well done. Is that the sort of thing you're looking for?

It's rather disingenous to demand specific examples of good things in the movie when the most specific objection to it voiced has been "they didn't associate with the characters in any way, shape, or form".

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post #460 of 545 Old 04-21-2007, 08:18 PM
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Seems as if the articulate types are suddenly tongue-tied when it comes to actually illustrating the specificities which result in such gushing praise. You shouldn't feel challenged when someone asks you this, btw. If there is true conviction behind the praise, you should be more than eager to share these sort of details to others who ask (it should not be a struggle to remember specific details which generated such praise). Otherwise, how do I know you aren't just cutting/pasting the same praises read elsewhere or on the back of the dvd case, in order to appear well-versed in such matters?

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post #461 of 545 Old 04-21-2007, 08:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Mr. Hanky View Post

Seems as if the articulate types are suddenly tongue-tied when it comes to actually illustrating the specificities which result in such gushing praise. You shouldn't feel challenged when someone asks you this, btw. If there is true conviction behind the praise, you should be more than eager to share these sort of details to others who ask (it should not be a struggle to remember specific details which generated such praise). Otherwise, how do I know you aren't just cutting/pasting the same praises read elsewhere or on the back of the dvd case, in order to appear well-versed in such matters?

You say all this as if there weren't 16 pages of previous discussion in this thread.

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post #462 of 545 Old 04-21-2007, 11:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Hanky View Post

Seems as if the articulate types are suddenly tongue-tied when it comes to actually illustrating the specificities which result in such gushing praise. You shouldn't feel challenged when someone asks you this, btw. If there is true conviction behind the praise, you should be more than eager to share these sort of details to others who ask (it should not be a struggle to remember specific details which generated such praise). Otherwise, how do I know you aren't just cutting/pasting the same praises read elsewhere or on the back of the dvd case, in order to appear well-versed in such matters?

I'm having trouble following this. You seem to be saying that those who like this film are only pretending to in order to appear "well versed", whatever that means. What would be their motive for that? And what the heck does it have to do with the film?

"There is no truth. There's just what you believe."
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post #463 of 545 Old 04-21-2007, 11:22 PM
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No, I'm not saying that all who like this film are pretending. I'm saying it is a possibility that some are. The motive?...to fall in line with those who do, and by association, bask in the benefits of "film taste" and sophistication.

For those who really know why they like this movie, it should be no problem to discuss specific examples. In fact, they should be eager to want to share these examples. They don't have to recite the same gushing praises that are "printed on the back of the box", so to speak.

As for the past 16 pages, upon more critical examination, it is really the same gushing praises repeated over and over again, with no elaboration. That's what makes it all suspicious, imo. Makes me wonder if people really know what parts really make this a great film, or are they just spouting off from the same crib notes that everybody else is reading from?

On a sidenote, I just viewed Deja Vu, and it has been a looooooong while since a sci-fi-ish film got me truly excited. Deja Vu did this. Now that is what I expect in some good sci-fi. Loved this movie!

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post #464 of 545 Old 04-21-2007, 11:34 PM
 
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You say all this as if there weren't 16 pages of previous discussion in this thread.

Unfortunately, not much of which is what I would consider "discussion" even with the broadest of parameters...which leads me to share the epiphany I had while doing some more productive things since my last visit here:

It's folly to post within the confines of this thread, unless you bow down to the golden cow that is CoM. All others shall be crucified upon on altar of endless scrutiny, adorned with a shroud that is laden with thorny ridicule of fact, pinned to the burdenous weight that exists merely as hope in understanding, and finally, done in by spears of unreasonable faith that only a madman or a fool would continue to struggle against.

To that end, I salute you, my fellow beings, for allowing me to move on, to more worthy things. May your sacred object of idolization bring you great happiness - and if not, I have great "faith" that if you prod hard enough, you'll find more blood to spill, though it shall be mine no longer. (Feel free to jab the now lifeless body of my posts if that's what brings you joy.)

Many thanks to those that extended diplomacy and restraint here. Enjoy your film.
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post #465 of 545 Old 04-21-2007, 11:46 PM
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This thread has become a pissing contest.
I have never said this before, but, Pooper, put it out of its misery...

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post #466 of 545 Old 04-22-2007, 03:27 AM
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I just finished watching this movie. I must've seen a different movie from most people! I thought it was predictable, boring, and well...not very thought provoking. I have to admit the idea of the human species suddenly going sterile is a good start for a movie. Actually, if I'm not mistaken in the movie the women have for whatever reason stopped ovulating, therefore, the men are still fertile.

I may watch it again to see what was so great about it, heck The Island was more thought provoking!

Just for kicks, someone please tell me what made it so good. I'm open to being totally wrong. I have a BS in Biology, so I thought it would at least tickle my intellect...NOT!
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post #467 of 545 Old 04-22-2007, 07:16 AM
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Agreed, what this poorly executed Sci-Fi people are crooning over?

They could have made it so much more than yet another LOTR roadtrip movie.
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post #468 of 545 Old 04-22-2007, 08:11 AM
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Agreed, what this poorly executed Sci-Fi people are crooning over?

They could have made it so much more than yet another LOTR roadtrip movie.

What does that mean? Do even you have any idea what you're saying anymore?

At this point, I expect you to complain that the movie sucked because all the photography was upside down and the lead roles were all played by Labradoodles. That would be as factual and make about as much sense as calling it "yet another LOTR roadtrip movie".

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post #469 of 545 Old 04-22-2007, 08:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Mr. Hanky View Post

For those who really know why they like this movie, it should be no problem to discuss specific examples. In fact, they should be eager to want to share these examples.

Whether it's this movie or any other movie, when you give examples, there are always those that will take issue with those examples. This applies to those that like or dislike a particular movie. There aren't enough examples in the world to pacify some people. It becomes an ego-pissing contest by individuals trying to convince you what you have seen isn't really what you have seen and you must see it through their eyes or you aren't seeing it correctly. This happens time and time again, and I think it is a total lack of respect for the person posting their views. Its okay to disagree, but it isn't okay to attempt to make the person you are disagreeing with feel belittled because they see it differently. It's a subjective viewpoint that is largely colored by what your experiences in life have been. For people to invalidate that is pretty low and manipulative in my book.
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post #470 of 545 Old 04-22-2007, 08:28 AM - Thread Starter
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Yeah, yeah, yeah... everybody is claiming to like this movie to appear to be hip.

I went over to the HD DVD Software forum to do an informal count. There are at least 7 threads discussing various aspects of the film (most concerning the problem the HD DVD has playing on various hardware. One concerning boiling the disk to get it to play has 4000 views). There is a poll put in by a vocal opponent of the film that consistently got around 77% approval, 9% indifferent and 14% "I want my 2 hours back". The initial poster later admitted he was sorry he constructed the poll, as it failed to confirm what he thought.

One could argue that people just want to protect their investment to remedy a defective product. I would argue that a lot of the HD DVD users probably have already put on the shelf other disks bought simply for show, perhaps titles like Phantom of the Opera. If they didn't like the film they would have probably either sucked it up or sent it back and demanded a refund. A great many people have the disk and want it to work. I guess they're all deluded posers.

I would go into detail as to why I think this is a great film, but I haven't seen it since December. The one time I went looking for it at Blockbuster there were no copies. Maybe I'll look today. I'm reluctant to go to too much trouble as I suspect no one is reading the thread anymore but a handful of people who simply want to argue.

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post #471 of 545 Old 04-22-2007, 09:47 AM
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Well. :

I finally got around to seeing this last week. I can't say I see any real point to adding my voice to the din, but what the hell. I'm just going to keep it short and sweet and give my subjective opinion as I see it.

Did I enjoy the movie? Yes, more than I thought I would. It's a solid action thriller. Period. As a piece of social commentary it's juvenile and vapid. It's not poetry. It's not important. But it was fun, well acted and very well directed- almost too well; several times in the film I found myself thinking, "Damn, that's a cool shot!!" but it didn't take me out of the movie. All the complaints about plot holes and general scientific silliness are justified IMO but I can work around that. I'm willing to accept that the movie presents a reality and we need to accept that reality at face value to get anywhere with the film and since it was a fun ride I can roll with that.

So, my take: good movie, yes, Important Film, no.

We now return you to the flame war already in progress

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post #472 of 545 Old 04-22-2007, 10:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Josh Z View Post

What does that mean? Do even you have any idea what you're saying anymore?

At this point, I expect you to complain that the movie sucked because all the photography was upside down and the lead roles were all played by Labradoodles. That would be as factual and make about as much sense as calling it "yet another LOTR roadtrip movie".


Speaking of Labradoodles, I notice that many people had dogs in the movie, probably to take the place of not being able to have any children. The dogs were obviously not affected by whatever the condition was that was plaguing humans. I wonder if any other species were involved? Like apes or monkeys. Depending upon their lifespans they would already be extinct.
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post #473 of 545 Old 04-22-2007, 10:26 AM
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Originally Posted by FredProgGH View Post

Did I enjoy the movie? Yes, more than I thought I would. It's a solid action thriller. Period. As a piece of social commentary it's juvenile and vapid. It's not poetry. It's not important. But it was fun, well acted and very well directed- almost too well; several times in the film I found myself thinking, "Damn, that's a cool shot!!" but it didn't take me out of the movie. All the complaints about plot holes and general scientific silliness are justified IMO but I can work around that. I'm willing to accept that the movie presents a reality and we need to accept that reality at face value to get anywhere with the film and since it was a fun ride I can roll with that.

I'm curious as to which plot holes and scientific silliness you are talking about and would appreciate it if you would be specific. I'm not challenging you here, just trying to understand why some people had a problem with the story.

Incidentally, while I loved the movie, I'm not sure I took any great message from it - no earth-shattering lessons as to the human condition - just as I didn't from the Godfather movies. It's just that the film set a mood, told a fascinating story, made me consider what life would be like under those circumstances, and stayed with me afterward. Most great movies don't change your thinking on life, they just entertain you in a profound and moving way. There are some exceptions, but life lessons aren't really what I look for in a film.
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post #474 of 545 Old 04-22-2007, 10:38 AM
 
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As a piece of social commentary it's juvenile and vapid. It's not poetry. It's not important. But it was fun



I really don't understand where people are coming from on this. Cuaron's movies are intensely political, and strong social commentaries. Juevenile and vapid? Huh? How on earth are you maintaining that? Do you have any experience with his films beyond this one?
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post #475 of 545 Old 04-22-2007, 10:39 AM
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The dogs were obviously not affected by whatever the condition was that was plaguing humans.

Earlier in the thread there was mention of how the dogs at the farm had a particular attraction to Theo. I think the filmmaker was alluding to the possibility that the pets had a sense that mankind was dying off and the impact that would have on them. The symbiotic relationship man and dog had shared for eons was ending. In sensing Kees condition and by associating Theo as her companion/protector I believe the attraction was a symbolic vote of confidence if you will.

So I agree that the infertility seems to be affecting humans alone, but that in itself affected all domesticated breeds indirectly. A subtle but brilliant (in my mind) inflection by the filmmakers.
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post #476 of 545 Old 04-22-2007, 11:00 AM
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I loved the movie when I saw it at the theater in December. I knew I loved it part-way through, and that feeling stayed when it was over. I didn't need to look at what everyone else said to know what to think, and I didn't come to like it only after reading other reviews just so I could be hip.

I liked it. I know part of why I liked it, and other things just hit a chord with me in general. I don't have to list every single part I "liked" in order to justify my liking of the movie and prove I am not just liking it to be part of the in-crowd.

If people didn't like it, that's their right and that's their opinion...

Why using other people's TV settings is a
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post #477 of 545 Old 04-22-2007, 01:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Josh Z View Post

What does that mean? Do even you have any idea what you're saying anymore? That would be as factual and make about as much sense as calling it "yet another LOTR roadtrip movie".

Since your a movie critic, you should know what i mean. Its that all too common plotline that gets recycled several times a year in books, cartoons and movies: a peculiar group of characters must take a perilous journey together to save their kind.
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post #478 of 545 Old 04-22-2007, 02:03 PM
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Originally Posted by JohnR_IN_LA View Post

Since your a movie critic, you should know what i mean. Its that all too common plotline that gets recycled several times a year in books, cartoons and movies: a peculiar group of characters must take a perilous journey together to save their kind.

Yup...recycled.

Good guy...bad guy.
Boy meets girl.
Girl meets boy.
Compassion always wins.
People talking...in english.
People laughing...people crying.

Yup....recycled.

LOTR Road Trip???

A.P.S. deserve our protection....join the cause today!
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post #479 of 545 Old 04-22-2007, 06:17 PM
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Watched the ED-DVD last night. A few random issues...

Is it me or did this DVD have a seriously odd mix? I have never had to turn up my AVR that loud before to make out the dialogue.

I agree w/some of the people here, the extras on the DVD was kinda propagandy- the guy comparing the earth to an 80 year old really came across as moronic.

I loved the Pink Floyd reference- particularly right after the King Crimson tune- but that was a bump that stuck out, because they BLUDGEONED you with it. OK, we see it, very clever. OK, now get up and stand NEAR it. Now talk IN FRONT of the it. I don't understand why they sledgehammered this across, when the rest of the film let out the exposition very deftly.

Those 'Quietus' kits were as nauseating as the quasi-religious euthanasia thing in Soylent Green, when I was an impressionable 5th grader. The refugee processing at the camp was truly disturbing.

Despite some odd bits here and there that jarred me out of the story, this is the most thought-provoking film I've seen since 'City of God'. And it's got King Crimson in the soundtrack.

But I'm still not buying it until it gets released on BD.
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post #480 of 545 Old 04-22-2007, 06:30 PM
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I really don't understand where people are coming from on this. Cuaron's movies are intensely political, and strong social commentaries. Juevenile and vapid? Huh? How on earth are you maintaining that? Do you have any experience with his films beyond this one?

Ok, I'll rephrase:

The movie was probably intended to be intensely political and a strong social commentary but as such points as it was trying to make didn't resonate for me in any way I chose to view it as if such intentions did not exist. In other words, for me the viewing experience was non-poetic and not Important. It was however fun which is more than most movies achieve these days. I felt his contribution to the Harry Potter series was probably about as good as it could be given the hacksaw that had to be taken to the source material. Y tu mamá también was mildly entertaining.

Oink, I'd have to watch the movie again to give specifics; unfortunately I didn't take notes. The most obvious is the whole concept of the entire human race going sterile at once but I'll give the movie a gimme on that or there would be no film at all. Another that comes to mind is the absolute miracle of a baby coming into such a situation being recognized as such then immediately ignored by everyone the moment a shot is fired, allowed the two main characters to WALK AWAY CALMLY with no one paying any attention. Also, she had a baby- so what? Will they discover why? Will this information bring about a cure?? Is the human race saved or will there simply be one new "youngest person alive" to stave off extinction for anther 20 years or so?? Will the human race ever know of the baby's existence or will it become a shadowy rumour; a legend?? Obviously the movie wasn't about that. It was only about the flight to save her. It's an action movie, period. If it was about these important sociological questions I hear about the action in the movie would have been the opening crawl for the real movie.

Don't taze me, bro!!
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