12 Monkeys; what's up with the ending??? [** SPOILERS WARNING **] - AVS Forum
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Old 12-29-2006, 07:04 PM - Thread Starter
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Watched this twice, and still don't understand how Madeleine Stowe's character, Kathryn, in any way within the story as told, could have had a sense of knowing James before. It is obvious that James was/is the little boy so, James' dream is just repressed recall of himself. But Kathryn did not see her older self when a little girl like James.

So how could she have the feeling that she new James before?

Emergency, everybody to get from street.
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Old 12-29-2006, 10:35 PM
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From the pictures she had.

Cary
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Old 12-29-2006, 10:55 PM
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I remember it all worked out for me, but without watching it again I can't be more specific. I've been meaning to get it on HD-DVD, that would be a good excuse to see it again! I really like this movie a lot; it's about as free of plot holes and paradoxes as any time travel movie really could ever be probably... which is not entirely, but they did very well.

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Old 12-29-2006, 11:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jcmccorm View Post

From the pictures she had.

Cary

It's been awhile since I've seen the movie. Please elaborate.
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Old 12-29-2006, 11:24 PM
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The war pictures when James was transportered to the wrong time. She has a picture of him becuse of the research.
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Old 12-29-2006, 11:40 PM
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Originally Posted by tkmedia2 View Post

The war pictures when James was transportered to the wrong time. She has a picture of him becuse of the research.

Now I remember. Thanks! Hopefully this answers the original poster's question.
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Old 12-30-2006, 12:16 AM
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BTW someone should modify the thread title for spoilers before the police come.. I'd be bummed if I hadn't seen the movie and wandered in by mistake

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Old 12-30-2006, 04:38 AM
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I'm with Fred. Loved this movie but hate spoilers. I'm at the point now where I won't even watch trailers unless I'm at the theatre or I know the movie is something I don't really care about.
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Old 12-30-2006, 10:53 AM - Thread Starter
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That's a good point about the picture. Still I might be wrong, but I think she had the familiar feeling in 1990 (James' first appearance before she published her book). It's easy enough to assume she'd have been researching prior to 1990 I guess.

What about the last scene with the female scientist who was in Insurance. Did she save the world, or, did she maintain her power in her present by assuring James failure?

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Old 12-30-2006, 11:03 AM
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this was just another one of those wacky time travel movies that makes your head spin with the paradox issues.
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Old 12-30-2006, 11:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rakesh.S View Post

this was just another one of those wacky time travel movies that makes your head spin with the paradox issues.

You betcha! And I love 'em!
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Old 12-30-2006, 12:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rakesh.S View Post

this was just another one of those wacky time travel movies that makes your head spin with the paradox issues.

I would recommend the movie "Primer" if you truly want to go cross-eyed trying to wrap your mind around all the time-traveling. I've seen discussion forums for the movie where people have drawn up elaborate charts to try and document the different time lines and put the whole thing together.
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Old 12-30-2006, 05:15 PM
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and the butterfly effect...it is kinda like 12 monkeys minus the apocalyptic stuff.
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Old 12-30-2006, 08:37 PM
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I'm not sure Primer can really be explained in any neat fashion (the number of theories about what actually went on attest to that)... the cool thing about 12 Monkeys is that is does wrap up in a kind of zero sum fashion rather elegantly. At least, if you don't apply too much scrutiny!

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Old 12-30-2006, 08:51 PM
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Time travel movies usually have some flaw or illogicality. TIME AFTER TIME's biggest flaw in my opinion was that H.G. Wells, instead of chasing Jack the Ripper all over San Francisco in the future, should have just gotten in his time machine and gone back in time 15 minutes and pocketed the crystal/key. Then Dr. Stevenson (Ripper) couldn't have gone into the future, and the police would have arrested him.

But then there wouldn't have been a movie. On the other hand, considering what Mary Steenburgen has said about her marriage to Malcolm McDowell, maybe all would have been better off if there had been no movie.
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Old 12-30-2006, 10:22 PM
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Originally Posted by eweiss View Post

Time travel movies usually have some flaw or illogicality. TIME AFTER TIME's biggest flaw in my opinion was that H.G. Wells, instead of chasing Jack the Ripper all over San Francisco in the future, should have just gotten in his time machine and gone back in time 15 minutes and pocketed the crystal/key. Then Dr. Stevenson (Ripper) couldn't have gone into the future, and the police would have arrested him.

But then there wouldn't have been a movie. On the other hand, considering what Mary Steenburgen has said about her marriage to Malcolm McDowell, maybe all would have been better off if there had been no movie.

Exactly, that's why I'm hedging what I'm saying the way I'm am. There are no flawless time travel movies, just those that come closer to a logical story than others, or entertain so well you don't bother to tear it apart looking for the loose ends. I put Time After Time in the latter category.

Mary Steenburgen got married to Malcom McDowell? Far out, I never knew that.

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Old 12-30-2006, 11:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FredProgGH View Post

Exactly, that's why I'm hedging what I'm saying the way I'm am. There are no flawless time travel movies, just those that come closer to a logical story than others, or entertain so well you don't bother to tear it apart looking for the loose ends. I put Time After Time in the latter category.

Mary Steenburgen got married to Malcom McDowell? Far out, I never knew that.

Yes, they had/have two kids, but shortly after they got married, he became addicted to cocaine and other things and made their marriage a nightmare for several years. They split, he went cold turkey sober (not necessarily in that order) and hasn't had anything - alcohol, drugs, cigarettes - for 20 years, and he remarried (since 1990 or 1991) and has another child.

And ... despite the flaw I mentioned (considering the genius that Wells was), the movie was entertaining. I heard that A SOUND OF THUNDER was terrible, speaking of time travel movies.
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Old 12-31-2006, 06:26 PM
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12 Monkeys, as a movie, is very underated in my opinion. Most people really enjoy it if you sit them down and make them watch it.

Stephen.

Chances are very good that I was drinking when I posted the above.

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Old 01-01-2007, 07:31 AM
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12M has my favorite Brad Pitt character, just edging out his roles in True Romance and Kalifornia.

larry

Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work. -- Thomas Alva Edison
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Old 01-01-2007, 03:44 PM
 
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12 Monkeys and Butterfly Effect are the best Time Travel movies I've ever seen .

A Sound OF Thunder was a HORRIBLE movie based on a very good "old" short story that I've read years ago .

The butterfly effect too was based on a short story that (I think !) had the same name .

I don't remember the writers for the two short stories but I think Isaac Azimov was one of them
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Old 01-01-2007, 06:24 PM
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Originally Posted by minaelromany View Post

12 Monkeys and Butterfly Effect are the best Time Travel movies I've ever seen .

A Sound OF Thunder was a HORRIBLE movie based on a very good "old" short story that I've read years ago .

The butterfly effect too was based on a short story that (I think !) had the same name .

I don't remember the writers for the two short stories but I think Isaac Azimov was one of them

Ray Bradbury wrote A SOUND OF THUNDER. I believe it first appeared in Playboy magazine. Read the story via the links here:

http://www.onebee.com/writing/2005/0...und_of_thunder
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Old 01-02-2007, 10:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PooperScooper View Post

12M has my favorite Brad Pitt character

larry


Totally, mine too. I can't help but LOL everytime I see his first shot, when his head pops out of his shirt and it coincides perfectly with the spring 'boing' sound coming from the cartoon on the TV in the background. that whole nuthouse scene is freaking hilarious. mon-KEY! mon-KEY!

aw man, I gonna have to watch that one again now..
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Old 01-02-2007, 01:20 PM
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i dont know, i cant get into this movie..
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Old 01-02-2007, 08:00 PM
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Yeah, 12 Moneys was definitely the film that forced me to consider the Brad Pitt might have actual talent. At least he picks interesting roles and tries do do unusual things instead of being a typical hunky pretty-boy. The Pikey in Snatch was another one.

Don't taze me, bro!!
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Old 01-02-2007, 10:07 PM
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"12 monkeys" is one of my favorite movies. Over analysis of any time travel movie is ultimately unproductive. That includes the "Time Machine". Wait isn't there a fairly long thread about that movie?

1.) I will say that from the beginning of "12 Monkeys" the only history which is told is the final alternate history. This is the history of the last ultimately resolved time line.

Those in the future do not know the entire history, and are sending people back in large part to discover it. Without a temporal viewer of any type, they cannot discover history without changing it, and therefore the history they discover is the one which they have created.

OR... 2.) The future cannot be changed. It has already happened.

I prefer explanation #1
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Old 01-03-2007, 08:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PainterPaul View Post

What about the last scene with the female scientist who was in Insurance. Did she save the world, or, did she maintain her power in her present by assuring James failure?

She was to insure that the future "scientists" could pursue a way back to the surface. Throughout the movie, characters made it clear that nobody could stop the disaster that befell humanity. All of the major events up until Cole was sent to explore above ground had already happened by the time the movie starts, and none of them could be altered. However, the future could be improved by knowledge from the past.

A.L.a.E.o.t.U.S., as proven 3/21 - never forget.
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Old 01-03-2007, 08:20 AM
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To me, "12 Monkeys" is basically a story about a man who witnesses his own death. It's that premise from Chris Marker's photoplay "La Jetee" that inspired the script writers for "12 Monkeys," although Gilliam says he never watched Marker's film.

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Old 01-03-2007, 08:26 AM
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Originally Posted by IAM4UK View Post

She was to insure that the future "scientists" could pursue a way back to the surface. Throughout the movie, characters made it clear that nobody could stop the disaster that befell humanity. All of the major events up until Cole was sent to explore above ground had already happened by the time the movie starts, and none of them could be altered. However, the future could be improved by knowledge from the past.

More specifically, they wanted a sample of the original, raw virus so that they could device a vaccine to let them return to the surface in the future. They couldn't use it to alter the past and prevent it from ever happening.
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Old 01-03-2007, 10:38 AM
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NoThru22 - Bingo

Love this Film. Gilliam's penchant for exposed mechanical items (ala Brazil) adds to the fun in his future sets. Very creative score as well. How many times do you hear an accordion as lead instrument in a main theme.

E
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Old 01-03-2007, 01:30 PM
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The way this film used VERTIGO for a key sequence is sheer brilliance. Absolutely fantastic filmmaking. Love this movie.

Vimeo is the home of the Super8 Shooter...
http://vimeo.com/super8shooter
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