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post #91 of 195 Old 07-31-2009, 09:30 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swiat View Post

Yes, if you have a crappy antenna system or live behind a hill this is true. Most viewers in Marquette Co. have a pretty good chance at getting WLUC-Dt with a good antenna system and preamp.

Instead of getting all PO'ed and complaining, look at it this way. FOX on 6-2 is another revenue stream for WLUC. It will enable that station to possible upgrade that weak transmitter to something on the order of 300 kW ERP after some time.

Hmmm....I was wondering how long it would be before I would have to start repeating.

Before the Digital switch I was getting CBS 3, NBC 7(6), PBS 13, and FOX 19
Now, after the digital disaster I get NBC 7 (6) analog and that's it. I am only getting analog TV right now.

Please tell me how this is better. Please tell me why I should have to get a new antenna to receive signals that are not there. All those stations except CBS 3 are running 10s of KW less power and their antennas are lower. I was recieving the channels ok before. Now, after the mandate, I'm not.

If you lost your OTA due to a government mandate you would be complaining too. There was nothing wrong with analog but there is plenty wrong with digital.

Maybe we should lobby for a mandate to have the stations add 200 to 1200 feet to their antenna heights and crank their power up to at least 450,000 watts each. That would still not make it as good as analog because you would still get that "pixy dust" on the digital pictures.
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post #92 of 195 Old 08-01-2009, 10:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoser Eh View Post

If you lost your OTA due to a government mandate you would be complaining too. There was nothing wrong with analog but there is plenty wrong with digital.

The government is only partly to blame for this situation. Many of the U.P. stations which used to operate at maximum power in analog are not operating at anywhere near maximum power for digital:

WJMN: authorized for 1,000kW, currently 9.8kW
WLUC: originally alloted for 1,000kW, now 63kW with permission to bump up to 83kW
WBUP: currently 4.8kW, hard to tell what maximum power is for VHF High DTV, but others are using 30kW or more
WNMU: currently 15.4kW, same confusing situation as WBUP
WZMQ: using 2kW with authorization for 41.6kW, max power for UHF DTV is 1,000kW
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post #93 of 195 Old 08-01-2009, 01:05 PM
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The government is only partly to blame for this situation.

Well sure, 99.99% is a part. None of those stations would have needed new equipment if not for the goverment mandate.
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post #94 of 195 Old 08-01-2009, 10:07 PM
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With a number of station groups in bankruptcy or teetering toward it, it's hard to call for license challenges. But it may be the tough medicine the Barrington and Barrington-esque groups need to move off of dead center.

In the 150+ markets, do stations get carriage fees from cable/sat providers? Granted, in the smallest markets, the sats don't always provide coverage. Anyway, it would seem that station groups would at least make attempts to allocate those funds to boost power or set up replacement translators to replace lost coverage for their home DMA's or where "white areas" have been created in the change-over from analog to digital.

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post #95 of 195 Old 08-06-2009, 06:58 PM
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Anyone try WJMN lately? I heard word they're at full power, 1 MW now. Is this true? If so, any subchannels?
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post #96 of 195 Old 08-06-2009, 07:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoser Eh View Post

Hmmm....I was wondering how long it would be before I would have to start repeating.

Before the Digital switch I was getting CBS 3, NBC 7(6), PBS 13, and FOX 19
Now, after the digital disaster I get NBC 7 (6) analog and that's it. I am only getting analog TV right now.

Please tell me how this is better. Please tell me why I should have to get a new antenna to receive signals that are not there. All those stations except CBS 3 are running 10s of KW less power and their antennas are lower. I was recieving the channels ok before. Now, after the mandate, I'm not.

If you lost your OTA due to a government mandate you would be complaining too. There was nothing wrong with analog but there is plenty wrong with digital.

Maybe we should lobby for a mandate to have the stations add 200 to 1200 feet to their antenna heights and crank their power up to at least 450,000 watts each. That would still not make it as good as analog because you would still get that "pixy dust" on the digital pictures.


I would say call Stupak and complain, but he's too busy ramming national health care and nationwide construction standards and via an environmental bill down your throat.
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post #97 of 195 Old 08-07-2009, 07:09 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by swiat View Post

Anyone try WJMN lately? I heard word they're at full power, 1 MW now. Is this true? If so, any subchannels?

I cant receive them and they were not supposed to go 1MW til November so your source is probably wrong. I think I will open another tab with their website...just a sec...

According to this-
http://svartifoss2.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/w...ion_id=1305833

Their modification was granted on 22 July. Even so they said they wouldn't be on until November at the earliest.
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post #98 of 195 Old 08-07-2009, 07:13 PM - Thread Starter
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Channel 19, WZMQ, talked about going full power in "the first week of August".
Well it is 10pm on the 7th and the first week is pretty much over and they are still at low power. Is it time to write them off?
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post #99 of 195 Old 08-22-2009, 06:27 PM - Thread Starter
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Looks like WZMQ is at full power today. The Zenith Box still does not get the audio on this channel while the Channel Master Box has no trouble.

I rescanned and this is the only Digital OTA I can get here.

As far as the others
I dont see how channel 35(6) can advertise it as Fox Ewe Pee when you cant get it in nearly as many areas as the old analog stations.

Nothing on channel 48 yet either. Maybe Green Bay Sold it to Minneapolis/ST. Paul.
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post #100 of 195 Old 08-22-2009, 08:00 PM
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The problem is the physical geography around Marquette. To its East is Lake Superior. To its West, uphill, is the Superior Upland Plateau that covers much of the Central U.P.

When you build a TV transmitter licensed to Marquette, you have a choice.

You can build a transmitter right in town, or at the edge of the plateau overlooking Marquette, that actually will serve Marquette, and the Eastern end of the plateau. Or, you can build a station well into the plateau, which will serve places on the plateau, and provide theoretical coverage (and thus cable carriage) of Marquette, Iron Mountain and Escanaba, but not usable OTA coverage to Marquette itself (signals, blocked by the edge of the plateau, pass over the town).

You cannot do both with one transmitter!

WLUC, WBUP, and WJMN have chosen the latter.
WNMU used the former for its temporary facility, and transitioned to the latter.
WZMQ has chosen to serve Marquette itself.

The problem is not really due to digital (yes, the fact that the digital transition has brought with it a UHF transition for lowbanders WLUC and WJMN has exacerbated the problem). WLUC (also known as "with luck, you see") in analog had to build a translator in their own city of license (W07DB - still providing NBC for those with analog).

There is a "right" way to serve the Central U.P., but it would take money (I wonder how much, very small translators are not very expensive, are they?):
Have "rural" DTV transmitters at their current sites on the plateau (actually, WJMN is not on the plateau), and use small translators to serve Marquette, Iron Mountain, and Escanaba. The translators would all be on channels different from the main site, but could share one channel with each other (e.g., WLUC on 35, but all translators on 14)
Ideally, in the three cities, broadband antennas could be shared by all five stations to further reduce costs.

Escanaba already gets Fox and PBS from translators of Wisconsin stations. Esky used to have an analog translator of WLUC (W14CE) until quite recently, and I don't know why they dropped it.

WJMN might be able to use their existing channel 3 for the "rural" transmitter (if their antenna could pass to the bottom of the channel and Canada doesn't object) and their existing channel 48 STA facility is already their Escanaba translator.

As I've mentioned before, WNMU already had (maybe still has) a turnkey Marquette translator in its channel 33 temporary facility, which was fine in Marquette in 2008.

(BTW, did WZMQ ever get on cable? in early August, they were the only station I could get with my portable in Shiras Park, but they were not being carried by Charter in Manistique.)
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post #101 of 195 Old 08-23-2009, 08:36 AM
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Agreed 100%. We truly won't know if the situation requires translators until the main stations approach max legal power (1 MW). TV6 is so cash strapped they can't even afford to put their digital antenna at the top of their tower! I think the VHF TV6 antenna is there now.

So, keep pinging WJMN and WLUC to
1) increase transmitter power to AT LEAST 300kW (WJMN will be 1MW in Nov.)
2) increase antenna height

I would hope they'd put in some LD translators in Escanaba, Houghton, and Iron Mountain, in that order... that would really make people much happier.

I wonder if the new highly directional pattern of WJMN will really work so well. it's basically pointed at Iron Mountain... people in MQT/Negaunee/Ishpeming may not get a signal too well.
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post #102 of 195 Old 08-23-2009, 08:58 PM
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LD translators would seem like the best way to go for the UP. Lot less power cosumption overall, better coverage too.

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post #103 of 195 Old 08-24-2009, 10:12 PM
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WJMN won't really be 1000kw - it will be 1000kw* - and that is a big asterisk!

Their CP is for a highly directional antenna, aimed at Iron Mountain, with 1000kW as the power in the major lobe (998 kW will be beamed at TV Fool's reference point for Iron Mountain).
The point is to use not much electricity yet still get a theoretical coverage curve that just barely skirts around the far edge of Iron Mountain. They won't really be OTA there (the signal is blocked by one iron mountain after another), but the theoretical coverage forces the cable company to deal with WJMN (WFRV, really) for CBS, and stops the cable company from substituting WCBS off the satellite if they don't agree with WFRV's terms.
In some directions, it is barely better than an LD station.

Some effective power levels for the WJMN CP, given by TV Fool for the generic city points:

Escanaba: 266.27 kW
Manistique: 18.21 kW
Marquette: 104.34 kW
Munising: 23.64 Kw (does not matter, an even worse "bowl" than Marquette).

Rapid River and Escanaba should do Okay, and a good outdoor antenna in Marquette should actually have a chance (this is because WJMN's site near Trenary has a better terrain path into Marquette that those on the plateau).

Manistique, which had been getting WJMN well in analog, will have very "iffy" conditions even with the full digital facility.
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post #104 of 195 Old 08-29-2009, 08:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by itsthemultipath! View Post

WJMN won't really be 1000kw - it will be 1000kw* - and that is a big asterisk!

Their CP is for a highly directional antenna, aimed at Iron Mountain, with 1000kW as the power in the major lobe (998 kW will be beamed at TV Fool's reference point for Iron Mountain).
The point is to use not much electricity yet still get a theoretical coverage curve that just barely skirts around the far edge of Iron Mountain. They won't really be OTA there (the signal is blocked by one iron mountain after another), but the theoretical coverage forces the cable company to deal with WJMN (WFRV, really) for CBS, and stops the cable company from substituting WCBS off the satellite if they don't agree with WFRV's terms.
In some directions, it is barely better than an LD station.

Some effective power levels for the WJMN CP, given by TV Fool for the generic city points:

Escanaba: 266.27 kW
Manistique: 18.21 kW
Marquette: 104.34 kW
Munising: 23.64 Kw (does not matter, an even worse "bowl" than Marquette).

Rapid River and Escanaba should do Okay, and a good outdoor antenna in Marquette should actually have a chance (this is because WJMN's site near Trenary has a better terrain path into Marquette that those on the plateau).

Manistique, which had been getting WJMN well in analog, will have very "iffy" conditions even with the full digital facility.

Manistique doesn't have a significant population base so I don't necessarily fault WJMN for that. But, the highly directional pattern? I need to understand that better. Old omnidirectional plots with 1 MW ERP covered IMT and the rest of MQT/Negaunee/Ishpeming better.
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post #105 of 195 Old 08-29-2009, 08:08 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by itsthemultipath! View Post

WJMN won't really be 1000kw - it will be 1000kw* - and that is a big asterisk!

Their CP is for a highly directional antenna, aimed at Iron Mountain, with 1000kW as the power in the major lobe (998 kW will be beamed at TV Fool's reference point for Iron Mountain).
.


This is the plot-

http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/polarplot...91&p360=0.159&

And this is the supposed coverage-

http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-serv...DT1305833.html
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post #106 of 195 Old 08-29-2009, 12:04 PM
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Which assumes that any point on Earth more than 10km from the transmitter is a perfectly smooth sphere.

Do a TVfool for Munising or Iron Mountain (or, for WLUC, WBUP and WNMU with regard to Marquette itself) and you'll use a vast difference.
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post #107 of 195 Old 08-30-2009, 03:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by itsthemultipath! View Post

Which assumes that any point on Earth more than 10km from the transmitter is a perfectly smooth sphere.

Do a TVfool for Munising or Iron Mountain (or, for WLUC, WBUP and WNMU with regard to Marquette itself) and you'll use a vast difference.

The TV fool map
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...&q=call%3dWJMN
is using the old WJMN coverage pattern. Not the latest one with the tight beam towards Iron Mt.
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post #108 of 195 Old 08-30-2009, 06:50 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by itsthemultipath! View Post

(BTW, did WZMQ ever get on cable? in early August, they were the only station I could get with my portable in Shiras Park, but they were not being carried by Charter in Manistique.)

WZMQ Audio is now no problem on the Zenith box so that is fixed.

ZMQs streamer today said that you should email your friends and tell them to call Charter and Demand that channel 19.1 and 19.2 be carried on cable.
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post #109 of 195 Old 09-02-2009, 10:49 AM
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swiat, I'd like to thank you for your recommendation of the CM7777 preamp. My brother put it up and plugged it in, and was instantly able to pull in WLUC-DT very solidly where we could get no picture at all before. He never even attempted to re-aim the antenna, but had cleared out a lot of trees in the meantime. This is at our camp near Osier, where we had only been able to pull in WNMU previously. My dad is now happy to have a few more TV channel choices and to be able to get TV6 news.
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post #110 of 195 Old 09-10-2009, 07:06 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by whitepelican View Post

swiat, I'd like to thank you for your recommendation of the CM7777 preamp. My brother put it up and plugged it in, and was instantly able to pull in WLUC-DT very solidly where we could get no picture at all before. He never even attempted to re-aim the antenna, but had cleared out a lot of trees in the meantime. This is at our camp near Osier, where we had only been able to pull in WNMU previously. My dad is now happy to have a few more TV channel choices and to be able to get TV6 news.

They announced that they were taking channel 35 down last night for "electrical upgrades to the transmitter". That probably means they upped the power. I will check and see if that is what was. Maybe TV35 is now at "full power".
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post #111 of 195 Old 09-10-2009, 09:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Hoser Eh View Post

They announced that they were taking channel 35 down last night for "electrical upgrades to the transmitter". That probably means they upped the power. I will check and see if that is what was. Maybe TV35 is now at "full power".

Hoser Eh, I feel your pain. What's with the writers at channel 35..."electrical upgrades to the transmitter"...what other kind of upgrades could they mean?

"Plumbing upgrades..." Suppose that could happen, particularly if it was water-cooled...

"Gas upgrades..." Yep, maybe that too, such as switching from a dehydrator to nitrogen in the coax. But, that's the coax, not the xmtr. Or, maybe they'll have it run on LP gas so they can pick up the Junior Samples crowd, as he quipped in an old "Hee Haw" skit, something to the effect of "Wonder when they'll make TVs that run on LP gas." (why do I still remember that?)

"Sewer upgrades..." Nope, that would be a coax upgrade for most stations.

Or, maybe they could just have said "transmitter upgrades!"

(after further study, saw that 35 = WLUC = Barrington Broadcasting. Somebody got an in-company promotion from KTVO :-\\ )

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post #112 of 195 Old 09-11-2009, 06:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoser Eh View Post

They announced that they were taking channel 35 down last night for "electrical upgrades to the transmitter". That probably means they upped the power. I will check and see if that is what was. Maybe TV35 is now at "full power".

Is it back on the air?
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post #113 of 195 Old 09-11-2009, 07:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoser Eh View Post

They announced that they were taking channel 35 down last night for "electrical upgrades to the transmitter". That probably means they upped the power. I will check and see if that is what was. Maybe TV35 is now at "full power".

NOT EVEN CLOSE! Full power for UHF is 1MW or 1,000 kW. WLUC has only applied to go up to a measely 83 kW. It's still embarassing and will help faily little compared to the old power level at 63 kW ERP.

WJMN will be at full power (1MW) when they get around to getting their digital facilities in Trenary up and running.
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post #114 of 195 Old 09-14-2009, 09:25 AM
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http://northpine.com/broadcast/index.html


MICHIGAN:
WZMQ/19 (Marquette) is on the air with a schedule of This TV and My Network TV.

The station recently upgraded to 41.6kW and is back on Charter cable channel 14.


It had gone silent in June after being sold to MMMRC, LLC.


It was formerly FOX affiliate WMQF,

but FOX moved its affiliation to WLUC/6.2, which also carries a 10 p.m. newscast, some syndicated programming, and AmericaOne. (9/14/2009)


http://northpine.com/broadcast/index.html
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post #115 of 195 Old 09-15-2009, 05:32 PM - Thread Starter
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That is old news. I rescanned and it is still showing WMQF. They still do not have a program guide on yet and they still have that annoying "ZMQ rquette"
in the lower left hand corner.

When they take off the "ZMQ rquette" and put on a program guide that will be news.




Quote:
Originally Posted by billiefan2000 View Post

http://northpine.com/broadcast/index.html


MICHIGAN:
WZMQ/19 (Marquette) is on the air with a schedule of This TV and My Network TV.

The station recently upgraded to 41.6kW and is back on Charter cable channel 14.


It had gone silent in June after being sold to MMMRC, LLC.


It was formerly FOX affiliate WMQF,

but FOX moved its affiliation to WLUC/6.2, which also carries a 10 p.m. newscast, some syndicated programming, and AmericaOne. (9/14/2009)


http://northpine.com/broadcast/index.html

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post #116 of 195 Old 09-15-2009, 05:37 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swiat View Post

NOT EVEN CLOSE! Full power for UHF is 1MW or 1,000 kW. WLUC has only applied to go up to a measely 83 kW. It's still embarassing and will help faily little compared to the old power level at 63 kW ERP.

WJMN will be at full power (1MW) when they get around to getting their digital facilities in Trenary up and running.

TV35 took the Fox affiliation away from channel 19 which was ota in Marquette so TV35 should go to a full MW.
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post #117 of 195 Old 09-17-2009, 08:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoser Eh View Post

TV35 took the Fox affiliation away from channel 19 which was ota in Marquette so TV35 should go to a full MW.

Yeah, well, good luck with that. They should be at 1 MW considering the rough UP terrain though. I read that the chief engineer at WLUC left to go to WNMU. That can't help trying to convince Barrington to give them more $ for a legitimate transmitter.
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post #118 of 195 Old 09-17-2009, 12:33 PM
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Barrington needs to pony up for a solution soon here and with their other former low-bander KTVO in MO. The longer they wait, the stronger the likelihood some starving broadcast attorney puts a bullseye on these underpowered stations via license challenge. "Starving" is the operative word here, of course.

1 Meg is not the answer for the UP. I'd vote for fill-in translators that have better LOS into pop. areas that sit in the shadows like Marquette. The power bills would be way lower.

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post #119 of 195 Old 09-18-2009, 08:28 PM
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1MW wouldn't solve the problem completely, but it would help a lot.

The real issue is that 91.5 percent of households in the Marquette market have cable or satellite. (http://tvb.org/rcentral/markettrack/...ion_by_DMA.asp) With just 8.5 percent of households relying solely on over-the-air signals, broadcasters in the market don't have much need to beef up their signals.
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post #120 of 195 Old 09-20-2009, 04:20 PM
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I wouldn't advocate 1 MW at Republic, necessarily, for the reasons you said. 300kW at Republic for the main transmitter and 15 kW LD at Escanaba and Hancock/Painesdale
300 kW would get into Iron Mt. just fine.
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