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post #61 of 9289 Old 02-25-2002, 12:52 PM
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The ABC Test sequence had a lot of information that explicitly stated that it is a 720p broadcast. WPLG-D does 720p broadcasts.
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post #62 of 9289 Old 02-25-2002, 04:32 PM
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Personally could care less about NBC. Still no OTA down south yet either i think.. The hell with them.. Now CBS and ABC are a different story. PLEASE dont file!!!
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post #63 of 9289 Old 02-26-2002, 06:11 AM - Thread Starter
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Alan,

There is some inherent additional artifacting associated with any cross-conversion between formats, including 720p to 1080i.

Your receiver is telling you what format the station is using for transmission. It can't tell you whether the source was real HD, whether 720p or 1080i, or whether it was 480p or 480i (SD). Many stations upconvert all their standard-definition sources to 1080i (or in WPLG's case, 720p) for transmission. You only get the full potential of HDTV when the source video AND the transmission format is a true HD format: 1080i or 720p.

Jim,

WPTV's waiver application was fully expected since they had already stated that they wouldn't be able to make it for another 6 months or so. As for NBC, I wouldn't completely discount them as far as future HD content goes.

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post #64 of 9289 Old 02-26-2002, 12:35 PM
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Dave,

Any more word about when WFLX will begin testing in earnest?

Ron
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post #65 of 9289 Old 02-27-2002, 06:25 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:


Originally posted by satpro
looks like this site has been updated.

http://www.broadcast.net/~sbe88/

Well, I guess they at least plan to be up by 7:30 p. m., Wednesday, March 27!

Seriously, last I heard was they'd resume testing within the next week.

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post #66 of 9289 Old 02-27-2002, 07:12 AM
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After crawling around in the attic for several hours and trying three different locations, I am so frustrated...

I had hoped that moving the antenna up into the attic would add 9/10.1 WPLG to my reception list, but not only did 9/10.1 not get better, I lost WSVN 8/7.1 FOX.

It seems the UHF reception got better in the attic, and the VHF reception got worse. Where I had only one bar showing on the reception meter for 8,18,19,and 22 before, I now have two bars for 18+19, and three bars for 22, but no bars for 8 and 9, bouncing to 5 bars then back to none. The LED flickers so much it is yellow, but never gets to green on the VHF stations.

This is truly frustrating and to make it worse, this morning, WFOR 22/4.1 has frequent jittery screen episodes with the three retrace lines.

The situation doesn't look better in the coming months, because WPBF is 40 miles to the opposite direction of the antenna, so I'm probably going to have to put up two antennas. Guess I better pull two new coax cables Friday instead of just one.

One thing I don't understand...don't all these TV stations have vertical antennas? So why are the elements of the TV antenna horizontal?

Ugh...this situation is breaking my head.

Alan
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post #67 of 9289 Old 02-27-2002, 07:25 AM - Thread Starter
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Alan,

If you are close to the Lantana antenna farm you may be experiencing overload interference on the VHF band from WPTV channel 5 and/or WPEC-TV channel 12. This was the case for Sandy Sanchez who lives practically under the shadow of WPTV's tower. How ar away are you fro the intersection of Lantana Road and SR7/U. S. Highway 441? It is in the southwest coner of this intersection where the transmitters for 5, 12, 29 and 42 are located.

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post #68 of 9289 Old 02-27-2002, 08:44 AM - Thread Starter
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I've been told to look for on-air testing from WFLX-DT within the next few days. Try tuning 28-1 from time to time, guys.

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post #69 of 9289 Old 02-27-2002, 09:18 AM
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Will do, Dave. Thanks!
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post #70 of 9289 Old 02-27-2002, 09:27 AM
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Quote:


Originally posted by David McRoy
Alan,

... you may be experiencing overload interference ... How ar away are you from the intersection of Lantana Road and SR7/U. S. Highway 441? ...

I'm 6 miles from those antennas, at 64 degrees off the back of the antenna (116 off the front). The antenna supposedly has a 12:1 front to back ratio with 5.9 db gain and 42 degree wide half power front lobe for channels 7-13. I don't know what the back lobes look like.

The fluctuation from zero to five bars to zero does lend credibility to an overload scenario. I guess I could try pointing the antenna east away from the Miami stations in hopes of nulling the overloading signal. Maybe I should hang a wall of aluminum foil to the northwest...

Maybe I should rent a DVD and forget Miami exists!
I'm just so frustrated knowing the signal is so close to being received. When the antenna was in my front bedroom, I found a hot spot where I got Fox and actually got a few frames of the ABC station.
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post #71 of 9289 Old 02-27-2002, 12:07 PM
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Quote:


Originally posted by David McRoy
I've been told to look for on-air testing from WFLX-DT within the next few days. Try tuning 28-1 from time to time, guys.

If you can, ask your contacts if "24" can be broadcast from the 480p source as an excellent test of their hardware...
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post #72 of 9289 Old 02-27-2002, 03:39 PM
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Pogo,

To get Miami from here I am afraid you will need an external high gain antenna with a rotator and posibly a band splitter. I also have an antenna in my attic pointed strait at the Miami antenna farm and it did not work. I had to use the biggest Radio Shack antenna on top of my house and a band splitter to reduce interference to get chs 8 & 9 from Miami. I now get them solid but it took a lot of trial and error!

Sandy
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post #73 of 9289 Old 02-27-2002, 07:29 PM
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No signal tonight from WFXL-DT at Wiles & 441.
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post #74 of 9289 Old 02-27-2002, 07:55 PM
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Alan don't give up just yet. Is there any way you can put your antenna on your roof.

I have mine outside and it is very low to my roof tiles so it's hidden from the front of my home.

Michael


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post #75 of 9289 Old 02-28-2002, 05:44 AM - Thread Starter
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...and anyone else who is getting overload from channel 5 or any lowband VHF channel into highband VHF channels, such as 8 and 9...the DTV allocations for WSVN and WPLG:

Here is a link to a view of the band splitter that Sandy Sanchez and I have been using to solve this problem:

http://www.radioshack.com/product.as...5Fid=15%2D1236

It's the Radio Shack Cat.# 15-1236.


Feed the antenna to the "OUT" (remember, this device is bi-directional) and feed the Hi VHF and the UHF outputs (which are labeled "IN") into a two-way combiner. Here's a splitter/combiner that's also bi-directional:

http://www.radioshack.com/product.as...Fid=930%2D0061

The RS Cat.# is 930-0061. The moddel number is 2512-25.

For this particular application you would feed the High VHF and the UHF "outputs" from the band splitter into the "OUT"s on the combiner/splitter. Then connect a short coax cable from the "IN" on the combiner/splitter to the antenna input of your DTV tuner.

What this does is to attenuate everything below channel 7.

To hook all this up, you can use a combination of some F-connector adapters like this:

http://www.radioshack.com/product.as...5Fid=278%2D275

RS Cat# is 278-275.

...and a short coax cable to feed your digital tuner. (I use this: http://www.radioshack.com/product.as...5Fid=15%2D1541 )

What you'll have when you're finished will look weird but it should work to keep channel 5 from overloading your DTV tuner.

In addition to all that, I have this amplifier in the signal path as the last element feeding my DTV tuner input:

http://www.radioshack.com/product.as...5Fid=15%2D1113

This is RS Cat# 15-1113. (Mine actually says "15-1113C".)

If you live really close to the transmitters you may find that the amp does more harm than good. And it will definitely intoduce interference in your analog NTSC pictures, so this is strictly a trial-and-error option.

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post #76 of 9289 Old 02-28-2002, 07:23 AM
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Quote:


Originally posted by David McRoy
... overload from channel 5 or any lowband VHF channel into highband VHF channels, such as 8 and 9...the DTV allocations for WSVN and WPLG:

[antenna->splitter->combiner->tuner details removed]

... amplifier ... as the last element feeding my DTV tuner input:

[antenna->splitter->combiner->amp->tuner]

...

David, Thanks so much for this detail. I was in the RS outlet last night asking what I could do about the overloading, but they were not up to the challenge.

I'll give this "low vhf filter" a try...wow, some hope.

You are putting the amp after the combiner, near the tuner??? Shouldn't the splitter/combiner/amp combo be as close to the antenna as possible? Or does putting the amp close to the tuner (more house shielding), give better isolation from the Channel 5 signal?

I don't know what 50' of "quad shielded" coax does to the signal to noise ratio, but it seems like putting the amp after the long run would normally be less desireable than putting it before the long run.

I don't need any kind of "dummy load" at the VHF-LO output? Where does the VHF-Lo band energy go? Does it set up a standing wave reflection back through the filter into the antenna? I guess it doesn't matter, if it works...

The other thing I thought about trying was building a few coax baluns, since one of the linked articles on antenna comparisons showed an improvement over a basic balun, but their hard to get station was in the UHF, not VHF-Hi, so perhaps this would not prove useful.

At least now I have something to try. I am getting a great picture for 22, 19, and 18 with occasional overload affecting 22 and 19. It seems like the overload is blocking reception of 8, and 9.

I can't wait till tonight to try this!

Alan
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post #77 of 9289 Old 02-28-2002, 08:16 AM
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This is my first post so I'm not sure if I'm doing this right. I live in Delray Beach and am using a RS VU-90 XR antenna on a rotator about 12 ft. above the ground (I'm sure much to the chagrin of my Condo Assoc.) to feed the following equipment:

Dish 6000 Receiver with 8VSB Cart.
Mitsubishi WS65857 16x9 HDTV

I am getting a good signal from the PBS, CBS, FOX, ABC and WPN stations in Miami. My signal strength usually is between 70 and 90% and since I added the rotator, dropouts are very acceptable. I have found that adding an amplifier to the antenna input probably did more harm than good.

I am really impressed with the picture quality on HDTV (now if they could do better with the program quality). I am also really impressed by the differences in picture quality between digital and analog. With analog, you have to put up with noise, ghosts, snow etc. With digital you either get a perfect picture or nothing.

I added the rotator in anticipation of the WPB stations going on the air, but found that it also was invaluable to help me find the best location to get the best signal from the Miami stations. For a while I was getting a lot of signal fluctuations on channel 22 apparently caused by multipath. Better orientation stopped the problem.
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post #78 of 9289 Old 02-28-2002, 08:33 AM - Thread Starter
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Pogo,

Yes, I placed the amplifier last so that the signal feeding it is pre-filtered to inhibit overload from channel 5, as you surmised.

My advice in your case is to try all this WITHOUT an amplifier and see what happens. I can get away with using an amp since I'm 10 miles from the Lantana antenna farm and am not aiming my antenna directly toward it...rather I'm aiming SSW toward the Miami DTV towers. Since you are further south than I you may not get any benefit from an amplifier, anyway.

And, yes, I forgot to mention terminating the Low VHF jack. RS sells 75 Ohm terminators.

Tony,

Yes, often an amplifier will do more harm than good. It depends on the situation. My favorite technique is to use an amp with adjustable gain. I tune to a DTV station of interest and adjust amplifier gain up or down while observing the receiver's "signal strength" meter (really a bit-error rate meter) and adjust for the best number. Since you are so far south (in Delray) you may not need an amp at all. I'm in extreme northeast Lake Worth (College Park) about 48 miles from the Miami DTVs, right on the edge of the radio horizon from their 1,000 ft. towers, so an amp is sometimes helpful.

I have found that rotator adjustements in 1 or 2 degree increments (!) can help optimize DTV signal stability on the weaker signals that I get from WSVN-DT and WPLG-DT.

For anyone who is quite a distance like me, adjusting the vertical angle of the antenna up by a degree or two can help with a weak signal.

In a few cases reflections from a large, reflective horizontal surface such as a nearby building roof or a large body of water can mitigate multipath in the vertical direction. This can sometimes by helped by adjusting your antenna height up or DOWN (yes, down!) by up to a foot or so in either direction. This has the effect of moving the multipath "problem" up or down in wavelength from the channel that you are having a problem with.

Good luck to you guys and let me know what happens!

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post #79 of 9289 Old 02-28-2002, 04:46 PM
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Pogo, In my case amplifiers hurt rather than helped wether at the antenna or after the band splitter. I also tryed notch filters for ch 5 &12 and it did not help. I have two receivers, The Rca dtc-100 and the old Panny 50. The dtc-100 requires the band splitter to receive chs 8&9 but the Panny does not. You just have to keep trying. The best thing is to have an exterior antenna as high as possible. I did not read all the posts, is that not possible in your case? Maybe you can put some straw on top of the antenna and invoke the protected species act and tell anyone objecting that it is a nest for the endangered red tailed ospray!

After all that work, I dont watch anyting on Fox or ABC for that matter. These days all my HDTV is either from CBS, PBS, DTV, Dish or DVHS.

Good luck, Sandy
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post #80 of 9289 Old 02-28-2002, 08:55 PM
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Fellow WPB threaders,

SUCCESS!! It's been a roller coaster 11 days since Robert (ZerO) listed his equipment and success in Boynton Beach, but tonight the RS VU90XR antenna is in the attic, and the HDTV tunes all five digital channels (+1 subchannel) - including all OTA South Florida High Def.

My excitement and frustration went up and down more often than Channel 18's HD station, but tonight I celebrated the successful finish of this quest.

It was David McRoy's astute remote problem analysis and precise description of the solution that has me dancing in front of the TV.

David posted a step by step guide and parts list for building a VHF-Lo band filter from RadioShack parts to eliminate interference from the analog TV stations just five and six miles away, and when I installed the filter - channels 8 and 9 snapped into view.

For anyone contemplating building the filter, the combiner/splitter RS Cat.# 930-0061 David listed may be an online order number only, but the store has a 15-1237 ($9.99) which exactly fits the spacing of the VHF-Hi and UHF ouputs of the three band splitter, and the 75-Ohm Coax "F"-Type Terminator needed is Cat. # 15-1144.

I don't need an amp to get all the channels, but I tested with it after the filter to see the effects.

My SIR-T150 "reception meter" readings are:

Channel .Station ...Net w/filter w/filter+30db amp
29->39.1 WBZL-DT .WB.....1.........6
9->10.1 .WPLG-DT .ABC....3.........6
22->4.1 .WFOR-DT .CBS....3.........7
18->2.x .WPBT-DT .PBS....2.........7
8->7.1 ...WSVN-DT .FOX....3.........7

WFOR still shows the occasional (and sometimes too frequent) three scan line problem. Since this is the only station showing this problem, I am leaning toward dhardings's assignment of blame to WFOR sync loss for the time being, but he has the same TV (Pan CT34WX40) and receiver (Samsung SIR-T150) that I have and we seem to be the only ones reporting these lines. Sometimes the image jitters so much I have to switch back to cable and watch CBS in stretched low def... The filter in out and amp in and out make no difference in this.

David - I've got a bottle of champagne here for all your help. Drop me a line at alanmcdonley at yahoo dot com. Thank You especially.

Alan
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post #81 of 9289 Old 03-01-2002, 05:41 AM - Thread Starter
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I'm surprised that the amplifier turned out to be so effective in your location. It's a good thing, as Martha Stewart might say...to have a little added headroom should a station have to temporarily reduce power for maintenence or whatever periodically.

Thanks for your parts list addendum, Alan, regarding the Cat# for the 75 ohm terminator and the in-store vs. online Cat#.

Now, to try to catch WFLX-DT testing on the air! I haven't seen anything yet...

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post #82 of 9289 Old 03-04-2002, 05:41 AM
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I am considering the idea of creating an afternoon HiDef Road Rally, if there are some others that would consider opening their home to a few HiDef folks and their spouses.

I am envisioning the rally to run from 1-6pm on a Saturday afternoon. Each stop would be designed to last about 40 minutes total to allow participants to arrive, time for the HiDef owner to demonstrate the PBS demo loop and explain configuration, and then to sequence departures. It is traditional for the last rally stop to be a restaurant. I don't know of a local restaurant with HiDef, but that would be the most fitting if we could find one.

This event would be by invitation only, and this will be the only public post about this event.

Each particpant would be responsible for creating the rally leg to their home (using a rule kit), and would arrive to their own home before guests and be the last to leave their home, of course.

Non-destination participants would only be allowed as back seat drivers in the vehicle of a destination participant, and only by recommendation from a destination participant.

As I said this is an idea in the thinking only, at this point. If you are interested in participating, please send email to alanmcdonley at yahoo dot com and we will continue the thinking on this idea in a private forum.

Alan
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post #83 of 9289 Old 03-05-2002, 04:57 AM
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post #84 of 9289 Old 03-05-2002, 12:50 PM
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Quote:


Originally posted by David McRoy
I've been told to look for on-air testing from WFLX-DT within the next few days. Try tuning 28-1 from time to time, guys.

So, what's the story?
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post #85 of 9289 Old 03-06-2002, 07:59 AM - Thread Starter
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Damn if I know. I haven't seen them testing yet, either. I'll delve...

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post #86 of 9289 Old 03-06-2002, 08:19 AM
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Welcome to the forum

I like your idea of the rotator, unfortunately my antenna is in the attic and there isn't enough room to safely rotate the thing.

I'll have to wait and see if I have to get a rotator, 'will know once WFLX-DT comes on the air.

Gireesh.
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post #87 of 9289 Old 03-06-2002, 03:56 PM
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TitanTV shows WFLX-DT going live on April FOOLS day.
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post #88 of 9289 Old 03-07-2002, 05:16 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:


Originally posted by satpro

In other news WPEC has also filed and provided no exhibits


CLARIFICATION:

While it's true there is no exhibit attached to their application, the application itself states the reason for the request for extension: delays in equipment delivery.

Here's their application:

http://svartifoss2.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/w...&fac_num=52527

If you look at digital TV CP Extension applications from other stations you'll see a lot of this. In many cases it's a "CYA" thing. The FCC is saying that the majority of the stations that are filing for DTV CP Extensions are estimating that they'll only need a few extra months to get on the air and most won't be needing the extra 2nd or 3rd extensions that were provided by the Congress.

Here is WPTV's application which claims technical and legal delays as reasons that an extension is needed, and features as an exhibit a statement on the history of their efforts to build a much needed new tower and all the lengthy and costly delays that they have faced since 1988:

http://svartifoss2.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/w...&fac_num=59443

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post #89 of 9289 Old 03-07-2002, 04:46 PM
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I was able to get 39-1 tonite on my rabbit ears. They are showing a 4x3 window in a 16x9 frame.

The digital signal looks like a bad analog signal, I even saw analog noise. When channel four shows regular programming it looks as good if not better then the directv l2l.

You are reading my signature.
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post #90 of 9289 Old 03-08-2002, 11:15 AM
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Location: McKinney, TX, USA
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About Channel 4...

I have Dish6000 and the Channel 4 coming off of it makes me want to close my eyes, it is that bad. Their OTA digital looks fantastic compared to that when they are broadcasting up-converted 480i. 1080i is fabulous.

Gireesh
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