West Palm Beach, FL - HDTV - Page 49 - AVS Forum
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post #1441 of 9289 Old 05-22-2003, 06:43 AM
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Still no 55, they must have added the HD and now it does not work!

Got 2-1,2,3 which I did have problems.
Looks like more stable signals except for 55
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post #1442 of 9289 Old 05-22-2003, 08:02 AM
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Nope. No HD on 5-1 (channel 55, wptv) as of last night. Law and Order and Leno were crisp 4x3 dtv upconverts (480i broadcast by wptv at 1080i), that's all. Guess the cards they need to route the NBC HD feed to the tower are still somewhere between Canada and wpb. I'll send an e-mail to Dave the engineer.

Mark W.
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post #1443 of 9289 Old 05-22-2003, 09:54 AM
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Here is Dave's reply:

Mark,
The cards have made it to Atlanta today. We are also having automation
software issues with our Master Control switcher, the latest update came in
today. We want to have the HD on the air as quickly, and cleanly as
possible. We also have some encoder gear back at the manufacturer, and
still waiting for it to come back. I wish I could paint a firm date for
everyone, but I am at the mercy of other folks to perform so we can perform
our jobs. A lot of folks are now saying they can pick us up, and we have
not done much of anything to adjust the signal...I still suspect older
generation boxes, but we do have the manufacturer looking at the stream...so
far all is clean.
Dave

Dave McKinley
Director Of Engineering
WPTV Television

Mark W.
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post #1444 of 9289 Old 05-22-2003, 10:19 AM
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Mr. McKinley's response

"A lot of folks are now saying they can pick us up, and we have
not done much of anything to adjust the signal..."

is troublesome considering I was able to pickup the 5-1 signal shortly after it went on the air, then lost the signal for several weeks, then began finally getting a reasonably stable 5-1 picture for the week prior to the Hughes E86 type upgrade yesterday. Now the digital signal strength I'm getting is too low to get a lock. This variability doesn't make any sense in the context that WPTV-DT hasn't "done much of anything to adjust the signal".

Most of us have been able to lock onto the 12-1 digital signal pretty much from the beginning of their transmissions. So Mr. McKinley's statement that he still suspects older generation boxes and that the 5-1 signal stream is clean is also very troublesome.

I'm not optimistic that WPTV-DT is going to have anything stable anytime soon when they obviously believe the problem is not within their control.
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post #1445 of 9289 Old 05-22-2003, 10:49 AM
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Len,

Those are my same exact feelings. I do not believe the update had anything to do with the signal loss again. I really believe it is on the WPTV end and they are overlooking something. Maybe there is a meter giving them false readings? You being in the north end and me down south indicate that the problem is widespread.

Mark T
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post #1446 of 9289 Old 05-22-2003, 11:10 AM
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absolutely!! I am actually glad we are still having trouble with 55-1 after the upgrade. That just goes to prove what we have been saying all along - the problem has NOTHING to do with our boxes (new OR old). The signal is just as bad as it has been all along. Until they get their equipment fixed, we might as well turn to the other local digital stations.
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post #1447 of 9289 Old 05-22-2003, 11:23 AM
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But those of us with newer boxes - e.g., the zenith hd520 or sony hd200, have always got a very strong signal from day one. Why is that?

Mark W.
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post #1448 of 9289 Old 05-22-2003, 12:00 PM
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I believe the root cause of the 5-1 problem lies in why 12-1 has beem able to gain wide spread coverage of all receivers while 5-1 has not. It would appear the 12-1 staff has access to better technical support and a superior HD knowledge.
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post #1449 of 9289 Old 05-22-2003, 12:39 PM
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What I don't understand is, if their omnidirectional signal is circular, and they're broadcasting at full strength, how come the receivers that are able to tune it are scattered in such a random fashion? Some who are closest to the transmitter are having problems while others who are very far away aren't. And then there's the wildly fluctuating signal levels. None of this makes any sense.
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post #1450 of 9289 Old 05-22-2003, 12:42 PM
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My understanding is that the newer boxes have better circuity to eliminate multipathing. I receive all of the other stations clearly, without pixilation or dropouts on my older Sony box. Because of this I suspect that channels 5's signal is faulty from the transmitter due to multipath problems, which are being compensated for by the electronics of the newer Sony and Zenith STBs. If the digital signal could be could be picked up as an analog picture it would probably be filled with ghosts. When the engineers over at channel 5 really want to address the situation they will acknowledge that there is a deficiency in their signal and not the equipment in our homes.
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post #1451 of 9289 Old 05-22-2003, 01:54 PM
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Well, since Dave McRoy used to work with Dave Mckinley at wpec, I assume that if need be McRoy could pick up the phone and talk to Mckinley about these issues, IF IN FACT McRoy is convinced it's a wptv issue causing the problems with older generation stbs. Mckinley did say in his e-mail to me that the manufacturer is looking at wptv's stream. Of course, my interest in this issue is academic only, as I have a zenith hd520 so I've always received wptv-dt strong since day one back in april - I just wish they'd be able to go hd already!

Mark W.
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post #1452 of 9289 Old 05-22-2003, 03:19 PM
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This is definitely a WPTV problem. Their signal was lousy to start with, then for a few days it was pegging my "old" MitsHD4 as well as my "new" Hughes receiver when I was getting picture although with frequent lock ups. Now back to the lousy signal again. I am even experiencing some break ups on the other digital stations that were rock solid until WPTV began testing, hmmm. WPTV, please don't think that everything is fine on your end, its not.
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post #1453 of 9289 Old 05-22-2003, 03:48 PM
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Both my Samsung SIR-T150 and SIR-T165 can find and lock onto the signal with just an amplified indoor antenna, but the signal fluctuates from very strong to zero so rapidly and frequently that it's impossible to watch for more than just a few minutes at a time. I just hope WTVJ isn't going to be using the same brand equipment as WPTV is. WTVJ has already stated that their compromise agreement with a couple of other digital stations (for transmitter location) means they'll have to deal with some degree of interference. What this means for viewers is anybody's guess.
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post #1454 of 9289 Old 05-22-2003, 05:12 PM
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Is Mark an engineer or a politician?
Or, he could be believing BS by his supplier.
You need a good RF tech to solve their problems.
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post #1455 of 9289 Old 05-22-2003, 10:00 PM
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satpro --

You are, of course, correct in your assessment.

They choose to ignore that there is no incompatibility between the older receivers and any of the other dozen or so South Florida DT stations now broadcasting.

B
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post #1456 of 9289 Old 05-23-2003, 06:50 AM - Thread Starter
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Dave McKinley did say in his last email that their encoder manufacturer, Tandberg, is still examining samples of their data stream. We have the same encoder they have and we had to do this, too. Some of you guys seem to have foggy memories of WPEC-DTs first several days on the air. They were not perfect and we had to get help fixing things. In fact, I still get dropouts on WPEC-DT...they just aren't as frequent nor as severe as WPTV-DT.

I have every confidence that both of our stations can eventually fix this. If WFOR-DT and WPBT-DT can be received on a older receiver with absolutely no dropouts (except during thunderstorms) then all of the other stations should theoretically be able to perform just as well.

HiDefDave
 

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post #1457 of 9289 Old 05-23-2003, 07:23 AM
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David, of course you are right that eventually this will all get worked out. I think the main concern here is, however, that WPTV still believes that the issue could be the older boxes (which by the way, my e86 is brand new and still can't get them). I for one would like them to admit that the problem is not with the older boxes - it is the corrupt data stream that is being sent.

Granted we all agree that the newer boxes can correct the corrupt data stream better than older boxes, but the fact remains that the data stream should not be corrupt in the first place.

Just my 2 cents
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post #1458 of 9289 Old 05-23-2003, 07:26 AM - Thread Starter
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Yes, and I'll admit it's easy for me to dismiss these delays in getting everything right...since I can just watch the Miami stations any time I want (except for WTVJ, of course since thry're not on the air yet.)

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post #1459 of 9289 Old 05-23-2003, 09:08 AM
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"Some of you guys seem to have foggy memories of WPEC-DTs first several days on the air."

Dave --
My memory of WPEC-DT is not foggy. It is non-existent, since I do not receive a viewable signal.

I believe you stated in the past that we in the far south are not supposed to receive WPEC-DT; so I suppose I am left with WFOR-DT. You might recall that station also having had some start-up problems.

B
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post #1460 of 9289 Old 05-23-2003, 02:11 PM
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Dave, I seem to be getting dropouts even with 100% signal strength. I noticed it last night during CSI... just oiccasional freezes and loss of audio. Is the problem you are describing or am I alone in this??
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post #1461 of 9289 Old 05-23-2003, 05:22 PM
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Just for curiousity, but why is Tandberg checking the data stream, why can't the station engineer check it out?
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post #1462 of 9289 Old 05-23-2003, 07:50 PM
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Quote:


Originally posted by George33027
Just for curiousity, but why is Tandberg checking the data stream, why can't the station engineer check it out?

Probably because Tandberg manufactured the encoder.

But regardless of what the problem is, I think all of the stations should have made a formal announcement in the media, asking for HD-capable viewers to call in and report their experiences with reception of their digital signal during the station's testing phase. Instead, it seems like they all go out of their way to keep everything secret, then assume that everything is okay because it appears that way to the engineers in the studio. Since eventually all they will have is a digital signal, they've got to get this working for everybody, and not just a few with certain types of receivers. The equipment manufacturers (both on the broadcast and the receiving end) are also at fault here; everybody has their own interpretation of what constitutes compliance with the ATSC's rules, standards, and regulations. That is simply unacceptable! Fox's "high resolution widescreen" and all the issues with PSIP are clear proof of that.

Dave McKinley and his staff are probably doing the best that they can, but I still believe that there is something wrong with their signal or the manner in which it's being broadcast. Hopefully, they'll have the answers soon.
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post #1463 of 9289 Old 05-24-2003, 07:30 AM
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Satpro is correct. They can't say they are on the air and done with testing until they get the stream correct and all boxes can recieve it. Until then they would be stretching the truth (putting it nicely).

Are they the only channel in South Florida that went with this particular encoder? This could be very bad publicity for that manufacturer. It might be wise to get the word out that this encoder has issues so other stations don't try and use it. Can't hurt to light a fire under the manufacturer.

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post #1464 of 9289 Old 05-24-2003, 08:59 AM
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As I said before, it is the station who should be technical enough to know if the equipment that they purchased is working.
I know Tandberg has to check it out, but if you bought a TV, and it did not work, you would want a replacement immediatly !

Simple troubleshooting methods should be used, not BS.

I know digital is now very complexed, but, the station could check if the output is being decoded by a receiver.
Then that receiver sent out into the field and it should also pick up the signal.
If it doesn't, than, by deduction you can find the problem box.

I am assuming that they are technical competent to make sure that they are not overloading the final stages of the amplfiers, and VSWR has been checked.
Just because a green light is on, does not mean all is well !

Is it a bad data stream or distortion?
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post #1465 of 9289 Old 05-24-2003, 09:19 AM
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I received an e-mail reply back from Dave a couple of days ago tersely saying Chan 5 is on-the-air and transmitting properly. I have a Sony HD-100 (Delray Beach) which can pick up all of the stations currently transmitting from Miami to Palm Beach. My problems with 5.1 are as many of you have described- varying signal strength w/dropouts.

I am a retired EE with a little more knowledge than the average BEAR however I certainly do not claim to be a Broadcast Engineer/expert. All logic points to some in-compatibility problem with their transmitted signal however the station engineer appears to have his head buried in some dark place. Hopefully he will get the message and see the light and find/correct the problem. After all, they just need to use one of these so called old receivers (I bet one of their employees has one!) and observe what their station is doing. If the station continues to say they are on-the-air while many of us cannot receive their broadcasts I suggest contacting the FCC with the problem since station licensing is issued/renewed for the benefit of the local viewing public. Enough complaints will bring the FCC in to investigate the problem. Notification to the Station owners may also help to bring action to investigate the problems we are complaining about since they probably are being told that Channel 5 is now transmitting digitally and no problems exist. The station owners would want us to view their station and not Miami when they come on the air next month!

For those of you also have the Sony receiver I have received a reply from Sony technical support suggesting I send the HD100 to a Sony repair center. Since I am convinced the receiver is not the problem I will wait a while before doing this but if I do learn anything pertaining to the Sony receivers I will post a message to this forum for you.

Gene
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post #1466 of 9289 Old 05-24-2003, 11:55 AM
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I sent the following email to the WPTV-DT engineer - suggest those of you with Hughes E86 type receivers do the same.

Mr. McKinley,

I don't know whether you've been monitoring the AVS Forum thread on the WPB HD stations http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...pagenumber=75, but WPTV-DT is getting a lot of angry comments from those of us that have Hughes E86 type equipment. Many of us were able to receive a locked digital signal shortly after you first went on the air. Then the signal disappeared until about three weeks ago when again many of us were able to pickup a locked signal. This week after a Hughes E86 type equipment software download from DirecTV, once again we can't lock onto your signal.

Some posts to the AVS Forum indicate you still believe the problem is not in your transmission, but rather in the "older" type receivers in the marketplace. If this were the case, those of us continuing to be unable to lock the 5-1 digital signal would also not be able to lock the other digital stations such as WPEC-DT 12-1. I have been able to reliably receive that digital station for since well before the Masters golf tournament.

If you are indeed claiming 5-1 is fully operational (except for the NBC HD feed) and transmitting an uncorrupted digital signal stream, then I submit you're not being honest with your promotion of digital television on your analog station. Your lack of communication and insistence that the problem is not yours on this subject is hurting your stations image and indeed may ultimately result in FCC intervention.
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post #1467 of 9289 Old 05-24-2003, 01:13 PM
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This station is getting a lot of flack, perhaps it deserved, but maybe not. The broadcast is on a higher frequency than any other local channels ( with the exeption of 59 which apparently no one receives). This frequency is likely to be more sensitive to multi-path problems.

I would be curious to know if anyone with an older tuner can sucessfully receive this station. ( I get consistant good reception with an HD200)
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post #1468 of 9289 Old 05-24-2003, 03:09 PM
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I have a consistent 0 on both DTC-100 and HiPix. This problem is not limited to Hughes. There are at least 2 other receivers that can not receive it. I guess I'm not missing anything anyway, since there is no HD and the TV season is over anyway. As long as WTVJ is up before September I'll be happy.
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post #1469 of 9289 Old 05-24-2003, 08:57 PM
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Quote:


Originally posted by aviators99
I have a consistent 0 on both DTC-100 and HiPix. This problem is not limited to Hughes. There are at least 2 other receivers that can not receive it. I guess I'm not missing anything anyway, since there is no HD and the TV season is over anyway. As long as WTVJ is up before September I'll be happy.


What are the other two receivers that can not receive WPTV-DT? I am only aware of the Hueghes HIRD-E86, the Toshiba DST3000 (E86 Clone) and the Mitisubushi SR-HD5 (E8 Clone). What are the other two.

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post #1470 of 9289 Old 05-24-2003, 09:06 PM
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Quote:


Originally posted by Joel Graffman
This station is getting a lot of flack, perhaps it deserved, but maybe not. The broadcast is on a higher frequency than any other local channels ( with the exeption of 59 which apparently no one receives). This frequency is likely to be more sensitive to multi-path problems.

This is a very interesting theory. I do remember reading somewhere that one of the big improvements of the new units such as the Sony HD200 and the new Samsung is their ability to better deal with multi-pathing.

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